2010-05-21, 09:08 | Link #10401 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
the problem of meta affecting real world is that it implies there is magic working in the real world.
A true antifantasy perspective cannot accept such idea. If you do, you are not really antifantasy. I am antifantasy, therefore since Episode5 I adopted what is now called "author theory" to explain otherwise inexplicable events.
__________________
|
2010-05-21, 09:21 | Link #10402 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
|
*sigh* I hate to be getting involved in this but I will put my two cents in.
Linkin, in regards to the red concerning Kanon, according to your theory a human Beatrice is the culprit and kills Kannon at the start of 3 of the games. Later you use this red as a support of your theory when "Kanon dies" In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! but that doesn't make any sense. You have Beatrice as a person on the island who had killed Kanon at the start of the game and who commits the crimes throughout, and yet it can be stated that no one killed him? tell me in what way that makes sense. The only way it could that I see would be a) Kanon is not dead b) Kanon accidentally died c) Shkanon (which I am highly against) Also you say Shkanon has merit yet you disprove it yourself when you talk about Kanon being killed and Shannon disguising as Kanon. You even said in defense of the above red that it fit because you can't killer a corpse, implying that Kanon has a corpse meaning a body separate from Shannon. In which case Shannon is actually just pretending to be Kanon to which I use Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be solved with clues that are not presented. Have we ever been given indication that Kanon is dead at the start? In regards to you asking where we are given indication of Kanon faking his death in the boiler room, EP 5 shows us that those involved in the first twilight fake their death, so Kanon faking his death would not be outside the realm of possibility. Lastly, you keep arguing for us to make a counter theory to your own. We are not trying to explain all the mysteries, we are trying to show you that your theory does not explain everything and that it has flaws. I am not trying to be rude or berate your theory, I am trying to show you it has holes in it. |
2010-05-21, 10:16 | Link #10404 | ||||||
Member
|
Quote:
As it regards the Knox 8th, I had already showed the clues: Spoiler for ShKanon:
However, I'm happy you try to counter my theory, I don't think it is perfect or it can explain the whole mistery, but I'm almost sure it has some points and I am the first to say it can also be wrong. I'm not like Erika, I personally like it very much to revise it xD Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"First I’d like to try to explain what “The Land of the Golden Witch” is in my opinion. IMHO the whole Episode V is “Land of the Golden Witch”: in the previous arc there was Battler as the detective and so we could have trusted both what he sees and the red truth. However, in this arc the detective was Erika, but I think (and I’ve been told that in Episode 6 it has been confirmed, even though I’m not sure) she has never reached the island, or better, she has reached the island as a corpse, so she is nothing more than “The illusion of the Detective”. Then in Episode 5 there is no one as the detective (it should be Erika but she is not on the island or she is a corpse) and so there is not an objective point of view and that means that the whole Episode is “Land of the Golden Witch” or, to put it better, the whole Episode is put before the interpretation of the game master, as it was in the previous game for the scenes Battler did not see directly. And this is also supported by the fact that there are some scenes with Erika that sounds like “fake”, fantasy, even though she should have an objective point of view, such as when she say “I have the authority of the detective, allow me to see the corpses!” and everyone stand back to let her see the corpses and so on. So personally I think that trying to explain Episode V is quite difficult, since we don’t have enough information, we could create a theory setting almost everyone as the culprit, as also Battler did, setting himself as the culprit. The calls from the 19 years ago boy I think they are all fake (except for the one that happened before the conference)... If it is as I said, this “Land of the Golden Witch” is sure a dirty trick!" Quote:
For Reason X, the adults decide to use some of the islands population to create a false murder on the island. Rosa, seizing the opportunity, volunteer herself and Shannon, an accomplice. They intend to appear as dead, with no obvious wounds, by using Natsuhi's medication to knock everyone out. Nanjo is in on the plan, so that a false diagnosis of death can be done. Rosa replaces her and Shannon's knock out pills with Maria's, claiming that they are for herself. Since Maria's are weaker, they do not properly knock them out. After the other four are knocked out, Rosa kills them, and with Shannon and Kanon's help, moves them to the shed. Kanon then locks the shed, with Rosa and Shannon using make-up to create the illusion of them being dead. Episode 2 can be explained with similar ideas. Shannon calls all the adults to the chapel, an isolated place where she can prove that she has discovered the gold. I am using Oliver's Broken Chapel Lock theory to escape the whole key problem. She presents herself as the Beatrice who wrote the letter Maria reads at dinner, and all the adults accept this. The adults then attempt to fake their deaths for Reason Y, the eerie Halloween party Shannontrice's idea. Rosa excuses herself, under the excuse that she thinks it might be too traumatizing for Maria to see her dead. However, once her and Shannon leave the chapel, she waits a while for Shannon to disappear and the death fakers to "kill" themselves, and then re-enters the chapel, and kills and mutilates the other parents. There are ways to explain things without relying on a non-existent Beatrice, as I have proven. Please don't think I haven't spent a long time thinking on these mysteries Ryuukishi has given us, as I have. The same goes for you too though, it seems. While most of what you write is merely recycled theories, some of it does have merit. I just stand in near total opposition to it, so I must disagree with what you write. [/QUOTE] What about Knox 8th?
__________________
|
||||||
2010-05-21, 10:25 | Link #10405 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
|
Quote:
Erika: Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!! Battler and Beato: We're very sorry, but even if we welcome you, the number of people is seventeen. |
|
2010-05-21, 10:31 | Link #10406 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
You said that the calls are fake, however I think it can be said with certainty that a person whose age is exactly 19 years exists at the same time: there is no person in this story that is known to have 19 years The mysterious person that is said to have 19 years is the master of the world created by Beatrice. At the time this was stated, Battler was the master, however if you believe that Battler is Kyrie's son, then Battler can't possibly have 19 years. This leaves us with only one option: Beatrice has 19 years. And if Beatrice has 19 years, then why it's impossible that she made herself the calls to Natsuhi? Also if Beatrice and Shannon are the same person, wouldn't it be a further proof that the man from 19 years before is in fact Beatrice? Wouldn't it actually be useful for your whole theory the fact that Beatrice is able to change her voice in a way to make it sound like that of young man? Quote:
If Erika is a dead body that washed into the island, she is not a "visitor". A dead body can't possibly be considered a "visitor" by someone in his right mind. If Erika is a codename for an existing person then she is not an uninvited guest. However if Erika is a real person and alive, then shkanon must be true. But in that case she couldn't possibly say she was the 18th human. Even if "human" is including dead bodies, then she should be the 19th human because of Kinzo.
__________________
|
||
2010-05-21, 10:57 | Link #10407 | ||
Member
|
Quote:
The number of people is really seventeen: Beatrice + the four sibling + the four cousins + the three respective spouses + Genji + Kanon or Shannon + Kumasawa + Nanjo + Gohda 1+4+4+3+1+1+1+1+1 = 17 I told you in my opinion only the corpse of Erika arrived on the island. Or else there is the talk about the apple. I can say in red I have two apples in my hands, even though I actually have three. Quote:
I also thought almost everything you said (except the part of Shannon being Beato xD), but it actually was impossible, since the boy of 19 years ago was actually a boy and moreover her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either. And there is also the fact Beatrice's life is almost very clear taking the various hints scattered around...
__________________
|
||
2010-05-21, 11:06 | Link #10408 |
Member
|
However, sorry for the double post but I have a very important thing to ask you all:
in EP4 almost everyone said to Battler that Kinzo has appeared, that the murders were being done with magic [and that Shannon is alive]. Except for the last one that is only a theory, we have the confirm that the previous two were a lie, so what is the point of making Battler believe in magic? I think it is impossible that everyone gathered together and says "let's believe Battler-kun in magic for joke, while killing each one of us" xD So I reached the conclusion that they must be obliged to, but I can't think of anyone else other than Beato .-. And also about ShKanon... the hints are too much, I think that something true there must be ... I think that this can ONLY be explained with a connection between metaworld and real world, I don't find any way out. Furthermore in the EP2 Rosa goes around screaming Beatrice at 24:00, while she expressed that she wanted to be in the parlor and not going out. Don't you think it is could be a proof that there is a connection between Beato and Rosa in EP2?
__________________
|
2010-05-21, 11:18 | Link #10409 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2010-05-21, 11:36 | Link #10410 | |
Member
|
Quote:
Evidences of Kanon's/Shannon's illusion: Battler, the detective, NEVER NEVER NEVER sees them together, not even once. In EP4 Battler finds only four corpses of the people who were in Kyrie's group, even though there should be five corpses. In EP2 Beatrice says in red that Kanon is dead at the time of the 2nd twilight, but Shannon, Gohda and Genji say he appeared, so they are without any doubt lying. Zepar and Furfur are also an evidence of that. Why putting a trap in Umineko? I don’t think it is accidental, try to think about it: Zepar and Furfur are clearly the metarepresentation of Shannon and Kanon. They should be, in fact, of a different gender, just as Shannon and Kanon (and in fact the tips confirm they are of a difference gender), but even considering that, they both appear to us as a girl. Why? Simple, because when we see Shannon or Kanon they are always the same person (in nearly every Episode Shannon). Another hint that leads to Shannon's/Kanon's illusion is that in EP4 ??? Lambda says "the identities of all UNIDENTIFIED corpses are guaranteed "instead of saying "ALL the identities are guaranteed", and that is because there was the identity of one "identified" corpse that was not confirmed: I am referring Shannon's corpse, that, even though half of her face has been blown away, should be confirmed since half of the face was safe. But in fact, that was Kanon's corpse, who has been killed on the previous day, before the arrival of the siblings. As a matter of fact, that corpse was the most hidden and is seen only by Nanjo and, for a little time, by Hideyoshi. As ot regards Erika, we can count her as the 18th people, since Beato and Battler said "There are 17 people", not "There are no more than 17 people". However, Lyrical, would you mind reading my whole theory and allow me to know what do I think about it?
__________________
|
|
2010-05-21, 11:59 | Link #10411 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
|
Quote:
Once Battler said "I shall suspect the one that witness magic" or something like that, I think it's in EP3. So I suspect Rosa. Moreover she was in the chapel! Last edited by DgBarca; 2010-05-21 at 12:17. |
|
2010-05-21, 13:43 | Link #10412 | ||||||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
Quote:
and really? The red is not a clue that Kanon faked his death? Battler just got done explaining after finding Kinzo's that ANY of the corpses could have been faked and you don't think there are any clues. Your a moron! Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Spoiler for space:
Quote:
__________________
|
||||||
2010-05-21, 13:43 | Link #10413 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
However EP6 suggests shkanon as much as it suggest shannontrice. In fact Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are found in the very same predicament. If you claim that Shkanon must be true at least to some degree because there are many hints about it, then why don't you say the same about shannontrice? Even though we see a scene where an X person admits to have created a Beatrice-like personality so that she could love Battler? Look at what zepar and furfur say to Beatrice: Quote:
__________________
|
||
2010-05-21, 14:06 | Link #10414 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
|
Episode 1 thought. I just got through playing the part where Eva and Hideyoshi are in their room, and it almost seemed like they were expecting to die. Hideyoshi told Eva how wonderful life with her had been up to that point. We know that Eva and Hideyoshi left the nighttime meeting under vague circumstances, and that they went to the guesthouse when they left, instead of the room Natsuhi had prepared for them in the mansion. I'm wondering if Eva and Hideyoshi didn't witness something related to the murders that they're not sharing. (I do know that Battler and co. never asked Eva and Hideyoshi about that night.)
It's possible Eva and Hideyoshi were offered to take part in a plan to fake their deaths, and refused to join in. |
2010-05-21, 15:16 | Link #10416 |
Member
|
[QUOTE=Raiza Sunozaki;3058326]Spoiler-wrapped for size, again.
Spoiler for size:
Well... as it regards the Ist twilight I actually think it is weird that the most hidden corpse is actually also the one whose identity is not confirmed by red. There is also Krauss, but I think there is no doubt about his identity. As it regard Shannon, Shannon remembers almost everything of Battler because assuming that she were friend with Beato, she obviously always talk about "his love". As it regard metaBeato, she is the humanBeato of EP1, and suitBeato in EP4 is humanBeato of EP4 and there is a clear scene where they talk toghether. If she was Shannon or Jessica Battler would have recognized the voice. However, the "exchange" that happened six years ago was obviously only for those two day, Shannon is Shannon and "Beatrice" is "Beatrice", the exchanged just for the time of the family conference of six years ago. However, with my theory I should be able to explain even EP5, the culprit is always the same one, humanBeato. Also, the murders should continue even after Natsuhi being acknowledged as the culprit, since the servants will "separate" the group and other people will be killed until 24:00 when will happens the explosion. To say "how" Beato killed them is not difficult, since we don't know how, where and when they were killed and without this information with can imagine all the most crazy killing method. As it regard EP6 I haven't played it, so I don't know whether it is solvable or not with my theory, even though I'm not too much sure about it... However, remember that in both EP5 and EP6 we don't have a detective (in EP5 it should be Erika but imho she reached the island as a corpse, and in fact even though she should be the detective, there are fantasy scenes with her, such as when she uses her "detective authority") so we don't have an objective point and we can trust only the red, not the narration. In fact those are not "question arcs", but "core arcs". Personally I think this is the "dirty trick" Ryu07 talked about, couldn't it be? For Zepar and Furfur also my interpretation is good, I don't think that is the problem. However, as it regards EP2 I interpret the fantasy scenes where everyone acknowledge as a scene where Beato shows them the three ingot and says she has the gold, so everyone accept her as the true owner or something like that. My explanation of EP2 is that: Before the arrival of the siblings, Beatrice kills Kanon and obliged Shannon to disguise herself as Kanon, telling her that if she wouldn't, she will kill George (and in fact Shannon dies before George) Beatrice appears in front of Maria and Rosa and gives the letter with the key (which she used before to unlock the chapel) to Maria and the other letter to Rosa. After the dinner, the letter, etc., probably late after midnight, Beatrice appears in front of the siblings who were discussing and bring them to the chapel, where she says she has something to show them. Probably, before going to the chapel, Beatrice tells Rosa to take Maria’s letter without opening it and without waking her up and in this moment Rudolph or Kyrie did the scribbles on Natsuhi’s door. I twilight (and also the explaining of the fantasy scene where everyone acknowledge Beatrice as a witch): After having brought them in the chapel, where there are all the halloween decoration (or maybe she put them afterwards), she shows them the gold ingot and explains them that she is an illegittimate heir and has all the gold. They acknowledge she as an heir (because she knows the location of the gold), but soon she kills them with a gun. The only one who does not get killed is Rosa and Beatrice proposes her a pact (further down I also wrote why I think this): she (Beatrice) has to kill other 7 people, but in exchange of some favours and her silence, Beatrice will give Rosa the chance to choose who not to kill (and she obviously choose Rosa and Maria) and will give her part of the gold (100 milion yen as for everybody?). Then she said that they will meet again tomorrow at 24:00, always in the chapel. She also says to Rosa “don’t try to do anything suspicious if you want me to follow the pact I’ve done with you, I have a lot of allies in the mansion” or something like that and that’s why she does not say anything and has the obsession for the “Wolves and Sheep puzzle”, but also the motivation because of she took the gun with her. The motivation I think of this are the following: (1st) in the chapel in the fantasy scene also Rosa appears, but she is the ONLY one who does not die, don’t you find it weird? and (2nd) in the end of the Episode there are Rosa and Maria who doesn’t want to go out from the parlor, but notwithstanding, we find them in the chapel exactly at 23:59 with Rosa screaming: “Beatriceeeee? Where are youuuu? Maria?!? Do you know where Beatrice is?!?”, isn’t this a clear proof that Rosa has a pact with Beato?. (3rd) We hear her lying about the existence of Kinzo (when she says she has gone to take Kinzo’s gun. I did not understand if she claim to have really seen Kinzo, however), (4th) the sentence of Beatrice: “show me what will you do, dance for me, Rosa!” or something like that and also other things I don’t remember now @_@ However, after Beatrice killed them, Rosa opened Maria’s letter (it is already 5th Oct and this does not conflict with “Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!”), closed the chapel and Beatrice put again the wax with the ring she has. II Twilight: There are many people who could have killed them, it’s not difficult at all to explain Jessica closed room. IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Twilight: metaBeatrice said that Kanon was dead in Jessica's room in red and humanBeatrice obliges the servants (Gohda Shannon and Genji) to lie about Kanon saying he has appeared and about Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpses being in the servants' room. humanBeatrice called Nanjo and Kumasawa out and then she killed them. As it regards the letter, it could have been possible for Rosa to put it there or also for Maria. And that’s not all, if the servant’s room had a window Beatrice could have taken the key relative to the parlor, put the letter there and the close the parlor without any problems at all. Then Beatrice kill Shannon, Gohda and George in Natsuhi’s room and then hid until Rosa and Battler opened the doorm checked the corpses and went out, after not having done any inspection of the room at all. The Beatrice comes out from her hiding place (an armchair probably) and goes out. IX Twilight: Battler surrenders to the witch and believes in his existence, so he loses his role as the detective (he has not anymore an objective point of view, that’s way he could not be the detective anymore) and that’s why he sees Kinzo alive in the study and the golden butterflies. Meanwhile Rosa and Maria had gone to the chapel (we don’t know why, but probably for the motivation I said before, the pact between Rosa and Beato) at 24 o’clock, but suddenly the explosion begins. That’s why the game master interpretation is that they sees golden butterflies following them, the explosions! And that’s why Rosa says “we have to escape from this island, here there is nothing but death! Let’s reach the sea and then swim, swim, swim”.
__________________
|
2010-05-21, 16:00 | Link #10417 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Quote:
I've already made a theory to deny both Shkanon and Ghost-Erika (explained here and here) So far there hasn't been a single piece of certain evidence that proves Shkanon must be true. Don't needlessly assume there are no other possibilities, because there's always still a chance of it being wrong. |
|
2010-05-21, 16:20 | Link #10418 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
I am 100% certain that you cannot explain episode 5 with this theory. Your theory has a big burden of proof here . Episode 5 practically confirms a human Beatrice does not get involved in the murders. It also confirms fake deaths. Beatrice keeps her promises. Beatrice promised in her letters and to Maria that if the epitaph were solved she would not murder anyone. I've already shown you that according to episode 5 Beatrice has no realistic motive to kill anyone on the game board. Furthermore your human Beatrice theory relies on Maria and Kumasawa's perspectives for her to exist. Well both of those people would beleive she couldn't murder anyone in episode 5. Kumasawa says that it's not possible for Beatrice to be the murderer when Hideyoshi's corpse is found she says that this is something Beatrice wouldn't do. The epitaph was already solved at this point. Spoiler for Beatrice's promise:
In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island. If your Beatrice is a human person she must exist in the parlor in episode 5. She has to be in this room to be part of the total number of people. We saw no human Beatrice in the parlor. Due to this red It is impossible for your person X Beatrice to exist as a human person unless she is somebody else. Even if you claim she is represented by Erika or some other person it is possible for anybody to claim somebody else represents Erika or that other person or that they are the person themselves rendering your theory entirely useless. Furthermore there is a red saying Erika does not exist in the worlds before this one, nor does she influence them. Your Human Beatrice cannot be represented by Erika without in turn influencing the past games and breaking Knox's 7th! You cannot counter this!!
__________________
Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-21 at 17:25. |
|
2010-05-21, 17:15 | Link #10419 | ||||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Meta-TSAB
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Quote:
However, I do not see "He cannot be killed, since he is already dead" as a valid option at all. There is no time tense in the context if I recall correctly about this red. If he was killed at any time during the first game, I'd think it would count as him being killed. If he was in fact killed, he would have to have had a way he was killed. And this way would have had to have been a Trap/Sickness/Accident/Suicide/Murder. Either the Japanese of this line doesn't support what I say. (I'm not looking at the original text at the moment) Or it seems you don't understand that line very much. Your trying to twist it around to fit your theory, when the line isn't allowed to be viewed that way. ---------- Quote:
3rd floor of the house + Rain + Windy Conditions. All of these can hamper hearing. Let's not even touch on the fact that people can attempt to fake voices? He's never heard "Beatrice" before, so they don't need something they need to match. It just has to be different from their normal voice. Oh, and if you're really desperate, you can use the whole "You are incompetent!" red truth. (Although, I don't believe that's really a red truth. Same as people laugh in Red, Ange calling Battler home reds, or Dlanor's Finished/Death reds. I think those are all just showing it's important, and setting the mood.) ===================== Quote:
Now that that's out of the way, no you cannot use that Red because of that. As I said in the beginning part of my post. The only reason that might be true, is the (fact?) that Kinzo passed away via his Health. If that scene was fantasy, and covered up for someone maliciously killed him (With Poison [Drugs], or Weapon and whatnot) then that is no longer even valid. (And no, I don't believe that's the case) Quote:
I believe the ones poking holes into it have already read it. When we want a counter argument, we want something relevant, and about our question. Not a reiteration, word for word, of what you've already posted already. ========================= Anyway, my biggest problem (no, not my only problem, I have lots of them) with your theory is the fact that Shannon has to die before the game starts in Episode 4. For what reason, Meta and/or Gameboard related, does Beatrice choose to kill Shannon, ONLY on this specific episode? Does your theory have any reason except: "Kanon is the 9th person to die. So I can't have Kanon dead at the start of -all- games. So I need Shannon dead instead." If that really is the reason, it seems like a huge cop-out on your part. And your just trying to throw together anything that fits. |
||||||
2010-05-21, 17:44 | Link #10420 |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Spoiler for response:
Sorry, but I can't bother myself with this theory when your explanations are hinged on blaming Beatrice, the one person we have been told not to blame. Hell I didn't like pony theory that much, but at least they understood that putting all the blame on a human Beatrice is against what the entire game is trying to say. |
|
|