Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[4Tran]

Sir Dearka, you should know that my general response is that Shinn wasn't really the protagonist, that he's more the pawn of Durandal's machinations. Giving him more screentime wouldn't have made too much difference; the only way to change what we got out of him would have been for him to reflect on his actions and to check whether they reflected what he really wanted. However, that would have also moved away from the endpoint the creators had in mind for him. There's nothing really wrong with going with such a different approach, but it would have meant that Destiny would be a very different show.

[RedWing]

Shinn could have been handled a lot better. The disrespect he gives to Athrun, the killing of the guy in orb who helped him out; and most of all for me it was the unrealistaion of the sacrifice of the Atha's and the other ministers of orb made in dying rather than giving in to what I felt were almost perfect ideals for a country. The fact that he was a main part of the entire colossal faliure that was Destiny also did it for me. Some of his actions were a stright take from SEED that it wasnt interesting.

Just to look at Shinn returning Stella vs Kira returning Lacus. The fact that Stella was a merciless killer (who killed many people to get the gaia + Heine) did not cross Shin's mind. The fact that she was a POW, and not a civillian. The fact that he was a soldier and should have known the rules. He can easily blame Atha for his parents but he cant do the same for stella. He can blame Kira for Heine but not stella. He can blame kira for killing Stella, but not himself for returning her to be a killer, not her for killing 3 CITIES with NO WARNING. It is crazy how anyone can say that Shinn was a great character IMO.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Sir Dearka, you should know that my general response is that Shinn wasn't really the protagonist, that he's more the pawn of Durandal's machinations. Giving him more screentime wouldn't have made too much difference; the only way to change what we got out of him would have been for him to reflect on his actions and to check whether they reflected what he really wanted. However, that would have also moved away from the endpoint the creators had in mind for him. There's nothing really wrong with going with such a different approach, but it would have meant that Destiny would be a very different show.

To me, such approach turned out to be one of the aspects that made the show different in a bad way in my eyes. Even if he was a pawn in the hands of Dullindal, Shinn would make a great protagonist with full-screentime if the producers did not try to overglorify Kira/Lacus and co.Despite being a pawn in the hands of Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker's character was so much more interesting and deserving screentime that the Emperor himself actually...

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Even if he was a pawn in the hands of Dullindal, Shinn would make a great protagonist with full-screentime if the producers did not try to overglorify Kira/Lacus and co.

This is the point that really killed it. The reason why Shinn frustrated me (and many others, I presume) was because he seemingly didn't know what he wanted, he had unrealistic expectations, and he expressed hatred for things without good reason. I refuse to entertain the notion of Shinn's mixed-up attitude being viable due to emotional trauma because anime isn't real, and if it were then Kira, Athrun, and Cagalli (who all lost people important to them or suffered deeply) should also be weeping balls of hatred, too. They're not, and this makes Shinn seem like a weak character.

If Shinn were able to reach some sort of conclusion to justify his beliefs and feelings, he would have been redeemable. This wouldn't be possible given the amount of screen time that Kira's gang received, especially since Shinn seemed to be clashing with them so much. It was obvious which faction would win out in the viewer's mind. I found myself despising Shinn, and any screen time he received deeply annoyed me. I think it reached its peak when Stella was piloting the Destroy. I just wanted him to die at that point, his actions seemed so foolish. Realistic, sure, but utterly foolish compared to most other hero-type characters.

[Sir Dearka]

This was essentially what differed Shinn from hero-type characters such as Kira and Athrun. And this is what I liked in him. Pure emotions, pure ignorance, pure hatred. Which made him a good material for a "likable villain" if the creators at least tried to make the viewers sympathize with him. Instead, they just pitted him against Kira and co. and then gave the latter more screentime. ..

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It wasn't Uzumi's policies that led to the EA's attack on Orb, though. That happened because Orb had something that Azrael wanted. The only way for Uzumi to do to avoid an attack would have been to ally with the EA upon receiving the ultimatum. ZAFT at that point was at a low ebb, and a joint EA-Orb attack on Carpentaria would have crippled their operations on Earth. However, I doubt that such a decision would sit very well with too many people.

It's not a matter of what "many people" would have liked, it's a matter of what the Shinn who survived his family's death would have wanted. The-Shinn-who-survived would have wanted his family to survived, and wouldn't have much cared if Orb had allied with the EA to blow ZAFT off the face of the planet. But that's hindsight, and that's all the Shinn-who-survived has. He wishes his family had survived. In that other chain of events, he could be just as angry with the Atha policy, but that's another matter.
[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by RedWing

No. There is no difference. Do you really think that EA would have just used the mass driver? Seriously? With all the technology in orb they would have been forced to use their military force to help EA.

As I explained above, Shinn-who-survived doesn't care. The war never affected him until his family died, and if it didn't affect even longer that would have been fine with him.

Then there is the fact that a good population of Orb's citizens including Shinn's family are coordinators. The EA was being run by Azreal who was head of blue cosmos. Accepting to lay down their government so EA could take over would NOT have been good for ORB's citizens.

The EA also includes nations such as the Eurasian Federation who AREN'T Blue Cosmos fanatics. The AF is exceptional in its near-universal hatred of Coordinators, but many other nations on Earth are portrayed as protecting their coordinator citizens as assets for EA development. A simple compromise would be "we'll help you win your war, and out citizens are left out of this." The EA's used coordinators before, after all. Such as when the AF worked with Orb's military contractor to produce the GAT-X series: that would have involved coordinators

.

There is also the issue with the War against ZAFT. ZAFT might have ended up attacking ORB under Zala, which yet again would have put ORB's citizens in trouble.

If Orb had sided with the EA, ZAFT wouldn't have lasted long on Earth, and the EA presence in space would have been much enforced, including adding to the defense of all space assets (Lunar colonies as well or orbital space stations). Besides, it's not like ZAFT hadn't already attacked and destroyed a Orb colony, and it's not like Zala wasn't going to use Genesis to kill off everyone on Earth but Orb. If Zala won, Orb was screwed anyway.

However when ORB joined EA, they were not forced to give up their government. They were not forced to risk civilian lives. Instead they took a precautionary measure to SAVE their civilians.

...you've just made a double-think argument, I hope you realize. Except for the fact that the EA didn't have a fleet ready to invade Orb, your reasoning is the exact same reasoning that Shinn could use to pound Orb for not doing so before. It's not like the EA was any nicer to Coordinators than before; Djirble was a maniac and more dangerous than Azreal. If Orb can get those benefits from joining the EA when it's not a crucial player in the fate of the war, it can get those benefits and more when it is a crucial player two years ago.

Every one of the reasons you gave for why it couldn't happen last go-around apply here. The EA is still run by an anti-coordinator fanatic, Orb forces more or less get dragooned into the EA military (and die miserably under Orb's commander), and they made war against ZAFT and opened themselves up for attack, which came only after they refused an offer to give up the most wanted man in the solar system. And they did so after ZAFT has publicly had an arms buildup. Orb chose the losing side from the start.

Four years ago, though, ZAFT was running just as low as the EA. Their presence on Earth was falling base by base, Orb could sell it's citizens safety in exchange for the keys to victory, and their decision could have decided the war. Instead, Atha even declined a ZAFT offer for assistance even after the EA made clear that it ultimatum, chosing to sacrifice the lives of Orb citizens in the name of his ideals.

And you know what the kicker is? Had the EA wanted to enough, there's nothing that really would have prevented them from seizing every last technician on the island, killing every coordinator, and otherwise doing every doomsday reason you gave for Orb not negotiating its entry into the EA. The Orb leader and its strongest units had already fled into space, the island was already being overrun. Instead, even with the opportunity to pillage and kill coordinators, the EA didn't.

[tarachi]

Actually, I liked Shinn's character being the protagonist/antagonist of GSD, although I had so griped over some unnecessary scenes (not just the flashbacks).

If a 3rd series are still within range of the first two series' timeline then it would be nice for Shinn to retain some of his characteristics (that to be developed later on). It would be fun to watch the interaction of three different opinions of Shinn, Kira and Athrun.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

To me, such approach turned out to be one of the aspects that made the show different in a bad way in my eyes. Even if he was a pawn in the hands of Dullindal, Shinn would make a great protagonist with full-screentime if the producers did not try to overglorify Kira/Lacus and co.Despite being a pawn in the hands of Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker's character was so much more interesting and deserving screentime that the Emperor himself actually...

A big difference here is that Shinn wasn't supposed to be a villain, so he couldn't purposefully perform evil acts. Moreover, Shinn was entirely secondary to Durandal's plans.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

It's not a matter of what "many people" would have liked, it's a matter of what the Shinn who survived his family's death would have wanted. The-Shinn-who-survived would have wanted his family to survived, and wouldn't have much cared if Orb had allied with the EA to blow ZAFT off the face of the planet. But that's hindsight, and that's all the Shinn-who-survived has. He wishes his family had survived. In that other chain of events, he could be just as angry with the Atha policy, but that's another matter.

My point is that Uzumi didn't have any good options - and it was directed towards those who think otherwise. Shinn's point of view is immaterial because it's unreasonable to the extent of illogic.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

If Orb had sided with the EA, ZAFT wouldn't have lasted long on Earth, and the EA presence in space would have been much enforced, including adding to the defense of all space assets (Lunar colonies as well or orbital space stations). Besides, it's not like ZAFT hadn't already attacked and destroyed a Orb colony, and it's not like Zala wasn't going to use Genesis to kill off everyone on Earth but Orb. If Zala won, Orb was screwed anyway.

PLANT was winning the war until the attack on Alaska, and Orb itself didn't have much in the way of offensive power-projection capability, so it's hard to see how they could have been decisive until the Astrays were developed. However, your argument that Orb had casus belli against PLANT is quite correct.

[carmolita]

Hello everyone my friend just sent me this translation from Animaga magazine:

Morosawa's interview in April 2008 Animage.

"I had completed the plot for a while. However, after GSD was finished, my phyical condition became worse and constantly needs examination and now is in outpatient treatment, and that's all due to my neck problem. It's really inexcusable to ask everyone to wait. It was just being delayed and not that I was planning this or I had no energy. Please wait a little more. Excuse me. In my head, Kira, Athrun, Shin and everyone are healthy. I will do my best to deliver the best creation."

I guess this means our main characters will survive the movie.? and perhaps this will pave the way for a season 3...

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

A big difference here is that Shinn wasn't supposed to be a villain, so he couldn't purposefully perform evil acts. Moreover, Shinn was entirely secondary to Durandal's plans.

Well, calling some poeple villains is a bit far-fetched. But I used the overgeneralization here. To me, Shinn had a potential to become something like Lelouch from Code Geass. I mean, not in terms of intellect, etc. But they both started to hurt people for selfish reasons. However, Lamperouge underwent a skillfull treatment that ultimately lead to the audeience sympathizing with him. We can't say the same about Shinn.

To me, they both are anti-heroes. At least Lelouch was. Shinn had the capability to become one. A great one. But creators ultimately failed to do so. I don't know, intentionally, or not. But still, the result was not impressive.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

To me, Shinn had a potential to become something like Lelouch from Code Geass. I mean, not in terms of intellect, etc. But they both started to hurt people for selfish reasons. However, Lamperouge underwent a skillfull treatment that ultimately lead to the audeience sympathizing with him. We can't say the same about Shinn.

In Shinn's defense, the people he was going against were not nearly as bad as the Emperor of Brittania.

P.S. I could never sympathize with Lelouch during the entirety of season 1 of Code Geass.

[Last_Hope]

Originally Posted by carmolita

Hello everyone my friend just sent me this translation from Animaga magazine:

Morosawa's interview in April 2008 Animage.

"I had completed the plot for a while. However, after GSD was finished, my phyical condition became worse and constantly needs examination and now is in outpatient treatment, and that's all due to my neck problem. It's really inexcusable to ask everyone to wait. It was just being delayed and not that I was planning this or I had no energy. Please wait a little more. Excuse me. In my head, Kira, Athrun, Shin and everyone are healthy. I will do my best to deliver the best creation."

I guess this means our main characters will survive the movie.? and perhaps this will pave the way for a season 3...

I rather think that she means that the characters are ready for the movie (as in the script is finished).

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Last_Hope

I rather think that she means that the characters are ready for the movie (as in the script is finished).

From what it reads, she's seems to be aying that the script is still unfinished but the characters are just very close to her mind and she'll be able to develop a script that is true to character....

Which means that the movie is still years away...

[D-KLAC]

Originally Posted by carmolita

Hello everyone my friend just sent me this translation from Animaga magazine:

Morosawa's interview in April 2008 Animage.

"I had completed the plot for a while. However, after GSD was finished, my phyical condition became worse and constantly needs examination and now is in outpatient treatment, and that's all due to my neck problem. It's really inexcusable to ask everyone to wait. It was just being delayed and not that I was planning this or I had no energy. Please wait a little more. Excuse me. In my head, Kira, Athrun, Shin and everyone are healthy. I will do my best to deliver the best creation."

I guess this means our main characters will survive the movie.? and perhaps this will pave the way for a season 3...

so it was a neck problem for Morosawa to have GSM to be wait.

also it seems she want main 4 of GS also others originals GS characters with some GSD characters to be healthy.

so really GS fans must wait for GSM.

[Killer Tomato]

Originally Posted by tarachi

Actually, I liked Shinn's character being the protagonist/antagonist of GSD, although I had so griped over some unnecessary scenes (not just the flashbacks).

If a 3rd series are still within range of the first two series' timeline then it would be nice for Shinn to retain some of his characteristics (that to be developed later on). It would be fun to watch the interaction of three different opinions of Shinn, Kira and Athrun.

Hopefully they can focus on someone else. Shinn's character had been mangled. Even if he's gonna be the main character, I can only see him pandering to the Clyne faction.

Or it's gonna come out like the Gundam Wing OVA: many questions unanswered.

Hopefully they can focus more on Yzak or Dearka as the main character.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by monstert

In Shinn's defense, the people he was going against were not nearly as bad as the Emperor of Brittania.

So it was much more difficult to make people sympathize with him than in case of Lelouch, I know (It's easy to side with one when he actually pursues the bad guys and hates the Empire that just seems to roll on tyranny). Still, they could've made a great character out of Shinn. The one that could show that when one takes the crucial war in the war, like Kira, he does make others suffer, even if he is not aware of it sometimes.

[Last_Hope]

Originally Posted by brightman

From what it reads, she's seems to be aying that the script is still unfinished but the characters are just very close to her mind and she'll be able to develop a script that is true to character....

Which means that the movie is still years away...

Well, as long as I get to see it before I die I´m satisfied.

[RedWing]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

A simple compromise would be "we'll help you win your war, and out citizens are left out of this."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum
There was no negotiation

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

If Orb can get those benefits from joining the EA when it's not a crucial player in the fate of the war, it can get those benefits and more when it is a crucial player two years ago.

When did ORB stop being a "crucial player". The only reason Djibril eventually used them was because of their strength.

And you know what the kicker is? Had the EA wanted to enough, there's nothing that really would have prevented them from seizing every last technician on the island, killing every coordinator, and otherwise doing every doomsday reason you gave for Orb not negotiating its entry into the EA. The Orb leader and its strongest units had already fled into space, the island was already being overrun. Instead, even with the opportunity to pillage and kill coordinators, the EA didn't.

Ever heard of evacuation? Everyone left the island, so there was no one worth pillaging, and if they got the evacuation boats there would be no real way to tell who is who.

The simply fact is that ORB did not just join EA for no reason, they felt under the new leadership that this defensive measure would be the best for their civillians, that it would stop orb from being burned down again. Whether it did or didn't does not excuse the fact that Shinn wasn't happy whatever ORB would've done.

[Garrod Ran]

to be honest i doubt this movie will be anything radically different to whats gone before.
call me a cynic , but they've used pretty much the same story ( or huge elements of it dressed up differently ) twice now .
im betting the third time is no different
i.e:- kira goes on to single handedly crush everything with his beam spam while making everything else look useless..

do not want

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by brightman

From what it reads, she's seems to be aying that the script is still unfinished but the characters are just very close to her mind and she'll be able to develop a script that is true to character....

Which means that the movie is still years away...

Which means she hasn't even turned in the script yet or even written the script yet...Yeah BIG SURPRISE I know ...We'll be watching Gundam Unicorn Season 2 before we ever see the Shinn stab again...The characters are close to her mind? WTH does that even mean? No disrespect to whatever illness she may be having but other than collecting a paycheck, I can't see many staff members enthusiastic about working with this lady after so much fail concerning this project and this universe...I just don't get it, you'd think she'd have some dignity and step away from the project (For the good of the project) instead of holding everyone's feet to the fire...Not like Fukuda has the professionalism to ask his wife to step aside as not to further delay the movie...I mean she could easily executive produce and overlook someone else writing the script just to keep the production tight and on schedule...I don't know how it works in Japan, but usually in Hollywood ALL the MONETARY arrangments are predictated on the entire script being finished so you delegate responsibility and map out a time-table...So basically with no script you can't even sharpen your pencils to put lead to paper yet...