[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

If we trust that Ep7 teaparty is the truth that Eva believes in and wrote in her diary, then there are a few things we can embrace as certain and others should be discarded as just Eva's theory/opinion.

At this point I have a red truth trust that Kyrie and Rudolf opened fire in the vault as shown, but not for the reasons depicted. Just watching the rest of the family's arguments from across the room and the number of 'unfortunate firearm accidents' people who disagree with Eva were having, it's a perfectly rational, if a bit desperate, decision to say ' you know what? I'm surviving even if I have to cover my hands in blood to do it.'

I'm inclined to throw away just about everything Eva didn't see with her own eyes as her just being really bad at reading people. So we've got most of the adults and George as confirmed KIA, but I wouldn't even trust that Yasu was shot since that happened after Eva was knocked out. It explains the dynamic between Battler and his caretaker a LOT better if Featherine is Yasu, so I'm going with that.

George is smart enough he might have realized something was up and gone after Rudolph. Or if he saw Yasu in the Beatrice outfit w/ Battler and was all 'Shannon wtf are you doing with Battler?' Rudolph might have killed to defend his son.

Jessica and Maria and the rest of the servants though, I dunno. The piece of Maria's jaw found in the debris makes me wonder if maybe Kyrie and Rudolph really did leave them perfectly alive in the guest house and they were caught in the explosion because everyone who knew where they were was too dead to tell them to get clear.

[AuraTwilight]

1. C'mon, are people still arguing that Ryukishi specifically mischaracterized Battler for a narrative longer than War and Peace?

That's actually perfectly valid; it's literally one of the biggest tropes in post-modern fiction.

[Dirty_Harry]

A question. What degree of canonicity the manga have? R07 write the manga or is it just a consultant?

Or it could be the artist taking liberties.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Dirty_Harry

A question. What degree of canonicity the manga have? R07 write the manga or is it just a consultant?

Or it could be the artist taking liberties.

Ryukishi said he would use the manga to write into it the solutions he didn't give in the visual novel. So I think Ep 8 should be written under his supervision. He also said he wanted to be involved in Ep 7 when Will were to solve the riddles so he could drop more hints there too... although as of now EP 7 is following more or less faithfully the VN so, so far, he might have not been involved in it much (*sighs* I was hoping in hints for the letter Battler wrote or didn't wrote but no such luch...)

[Leafsnail]

I'll elaborate more on my Kyrie/Yasu connection theory. We know they were accomplices. But what Kyrie was more involved than someone who was merely bribed?

There are some parallels between their stories - the jealousy, the betrayal by the man they love, the stewing in their own misery for years. Let's say Kyrie got into one of her lectures about love when talkong to Shannon (post epitaph solving, probably). Shannon may have felt a real resonance, and began to open up to Kyrie about Battler's broken promise and her other personal problems.

Kyrie's actions in the gold room were not motivated by money. She did it to save Yasu. Perhaps necause she saw herself in Yasu, or because she'd be damned if she was gonna let her son get away with breaking a girl's heart.

After Eva fell unconscious Yasu told Kyrie everything. Kyrie proposes a new plan - she'll carry out the murders, while Yasu runs away with Battler. Kyrie would use the bomb to destroy all the evidence and blame it on the writer of the message bottles. She does this because it would be the best way to cover up the murders he's already commited, and because it seemed to be what Yasu wanted anyway.

The last part is probably a lot more complicated, but I think this would at least explain why Kyrie knew that Yasu's story was real, and how Yasu and Battler ended up together in the tunnels.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Hey guys, did you realize that there was a hidden riddle in the 4th Game, that wasn't solved

Ushiromiya Battler has a sin

Because of your sin, people die.

**Draws out a Red and Blue Sword**

Ushiromiya Battler's Sin wasn't the cause of the Rokkenjima Murders.

To explain how, I'd like to invoke the concept of Original Sin. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/original+sin Basically, Original Sin refers to very simply the First Sin committed. That Sin in Umineko wasn't Battler's Sin. It was Rudolf's. The Sin of cheating on Asumu required him to switch the babies, and leading Kyrie/Battler to believing that Asumu was his mother. This in turn, years later would lead to Battler leaving the Ushiromiya's for 6 years.

If Rudolf doesn't cheat on Asumu, or better yet, asks for and files a divorce and gets it on with Kyrie(or heck, if he's truthful anyway), Battler might look down on Rudolf but without the emotional connection to Asumu(since she never assumes mothership) he likely never leaves the family. Or if he breaks up with Asumu the right way, Battler is born into a normal family with Kyrie and Ange.

If Battler's Sin is the "cause" for the murders, what triggered that sin was Rudolf's Sin. This might be another way of explaining why Ryukishi showed us the Kyrie Culprit Theory. It might be a way of pointing out how Rudolf's actions also played a part of what transpired.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Ushiromiya Battler's Sin wasn't the cause of the Rokkenjima Murders.

Due to your sin a great number of the people on this island dies, nobody can evade it.
All will die.

If Battler's Sin is the "cause" for the murders, what triggered that sin was Rudolf's Sin. This might be another way of explaining why Ryukishi showed us the Kyrie Culprit Theory. It might be a way of pointing out how Rudolf's actions also played a part of what transpired.

But Beatrice clearly says during this scene that the sin he wants him to remember is of something ON ROKKENJIMA and while it has to do with him leaving and throwing away the Ushiromiya name, she dismisses the notion that it s about Rudolph.

EDIT:
I reread the EP4 manga again and also in the light of recent revelations in the EP8 manga, as well as everything we know so far, it kind of makes some elements stand out even more...it's kind of weird how we weren't able to see certain things.
But I wanted to highlight some things in terms of mindset that might have played into events, especially if we were to consider that EP4 might actually hint towards things that might have actually happened to a certain degree.

Let's for example consider the similarities between EP4 and the content of Eva's diary as depicted in the EP8 manga.
The cousins are sent to the guesthouse/The cousins are sent to the guesthouse
The parents seclude themselves and are confronted by the head of the family (Kinzo)/The parents seclude themselves and meet the head of the family (Beatrice)
The first victims are the parents in a closed of room, killed by the Chiesters/The first victims are the parents in a closed of room, killed by the Winchesters
George has a fatal shot in the head/George has a fatal shot in the chest
Jessica has a fatal head wound/Jessica has a fatal head wound
Battler is in a secure spot until the end of the first day/Battler is nowhere to be found close to the fatal events
Maria is not found until the second day, when she apparently was poisoned and died peacefully/Maria's fate is not depicted

Currently I am trying to wrap my head around every little part of Umineko to built a satisfying idea of everything before the manga has fully run through.
If we believe that Beatrice planned to bribe someone, and that someone was obviously not the Eva-branch of the family, it could actually have been the Rudolph-branch, which would explain (a) their pushing towards solving the epitaph, (b) Rudolph choosing now and a family conference of all years and times to beg Battler to come back, and (c) Kyrie leaving Ange with her estranged family. This could of course all be coincidences that incriminate them, just like in Eva's case, but since they actually seem to be the culprits of at least 2-4 murders...it makes you question them. We know that EP1 was a Eva-branch accomplice plot, EP2 was Rosa accomplice, and Our Confession laid out a Krauss-branch accomplice plot.
EP4 had, on the other hand , the scene of Krauss and Natsuhi meeting with Kinzo, who agreed to appear before his children, which, interpreted in current lights, hints largely towards a Krauss-branch accomplice plot...

I would almost say that Maria was almost likely killed by Beatrice, because it is such a coherent theme in every Episode that she is either left alive till the end or is killed by her.
Meets Beatrice at the end (EP1), wants to wait for Beatrice when the island is about to explode (EP2), is strangled by Beatrice to release her from her suffering (EP3), is poisoned and placed at Rosa's side as if asleep (EP4).
Reading it now, the scene when Beato gives up after Battler fails to remember his sin also holds some interesting elements. Virgilia and Ronove leave her alone immediately and then she meets up with Maria, who tells her that they only need each other and that they should just stay together, just the two of them, because only they understand magic...kinda seems suicide pacty to me...
I mean, it's not like there haven't been cases of 11 year old kids committing suicide because of bullying (of course there is a higher rate among 15-19 year olds, but there mostly is one case in the elementary school range per year)...

Also, I found what Beato said on the balcony, when she starts talking about Battler's sin, quite interesting, which is often left out because people concentrate on the Red that comes after.
"Hmmm...so you felt as if your father's remarriage desecrated your highly regarded mother's death....? But were you not born and raised an Ushiromiya? Do you want to insinuate that you possess the right to throw away the name of Ushiromiya, to forget about what you owe this family, in order to get back at your father?
[...]
The name of Ushiromiya belongs neither just to you nor to your father. You'd better realize that your young and sinful behavior dragged the house of Ushiromiya into the mud.
Though it was caused by your grandparents death, you did good to reclaim your place in the house of Ushiromiya. Thus I shall give you a chance to mend what your sin has caused."
I think this is an important window into Yasu's mindset, that while her game was obviously about making him remember, she also sees at that point that all this caused wider repercussions than just a fallout between the two of them.

I'm trying to unite especially EP4 with what we know about the solution by now and it's a rather interesting picture, considering that right now I have a large mixture of incidents, murders, and suicides in my mind...which makes it very similar to Sakaguchi Ango's The Un-Serial Murder Case (不連続殺人事件)

Originally Posted by Renall

You've completely mischaracterized my argument.

I see where we disagree, and I'm sorry if I caused you unnecessary headaches.
I think I am used to a slightly more head-on style of discussion, which likely has been out of line while talking to you. Maybe it comes from your writing style making you seem very secure in your argument, which might cause some people (like me) to argue against you in a similarly strong way. Or me being German just makes me insensitive to when I am an asshole

It's fairly clear it wants us to think that what the other side is doing is right, or at least that the point it's making is valid in spite of the other side being technically factually correct.

To ask now, before I am making assumptions again: Is your idea in this case that EP8 features a binary system of opposition? So basically Battler (escapist fantasy) vs. Bern (heartless reality)? Because I read it that way, but don't want to insinuate falsely again.

I see it as being at least a triangle of Absolute Emotion (Battler)-Emotionless Real (Bern)-Livable Reality (Ange)...and especially the different witches are again kind of split in their view of what a good or entertaining approach is.
For me, both extreme sides, introduced during the run of Umineko, have something that Ange wants/needs, which is the ability to believe AND the truth. Because, like Battler, Ange was only able to understand the message of the heart once she had seen the truth...so even if Bern might have done horrible things the Ange, Ange wouldn't have reached a place where she understood the message without it.

You appear to be arguing (at least, I think?) that the latter is the case, while I'm arguing that I think the former is happening.

I only wonder whether a work of fiction has any obligation to be understood by everybody. I know, this sounds elitist and kind of like it excuses shitty writing, but on the other hand...not many people get that The Crucible is a contemporary commentary, or Theodor Fontane wrote many of his main characters stupid or despicable to prove a point...
And this is not to say that I thing Ryukishi wrote some great piece of literature here (actually I would even argue that the whole concept of great pieces of literature is debatable...but that's a whole other topic)...just that I think he wants to make a point that is bound to go over some people's heads. At least some parts of Higurashi and Higanbana to a great deal also hint at him actually being fairly critical of society and current social norms, so it wouldn't be surprising if it was in here as well.

She can be bad and love her kid. She can't be a one-dimensional sociopath who kills for no reason and keenly attuned to emotions to the point that she can hit on exactly what she needs to say to a person to make them sympathetic to her child, knowing that this person is also deeply loving of her own child.

But isn't that the text-book example of a sociopath (except maybe the deeply loving her child part)? Textbook sociopaths are supposed to be so detached from their emotions that they are able to rationalize lying, murdering, manipulating, and still come across as charming and convincing. So, if she actually was murdering for no reason but being a sociopath, her whole behavior in Eva's book would make sense.
BUT, what wouldn't make sense is her depiction by Battler in EP8, that would then be a complete lie...unless of course she was supposed to be written as only having a tendency towards sociopathic behavior.

[jjblue1]

I've been re-reading EP 7 Teaparty and comparing it with Eva's diary/the idea part of it was in Eva's diary.

I'll probably post more later on but I think the general idea is that Ryukishi wanted us to think they were so overexcited they weren't thinking clearly. He keeps on stressing how the sight of the gold clouded their minds and kept on clouding them but, if I've to be honest, as far as I'm involved he somehow failed to transmit me their feelings. So I can read they felt this and that and I can assume they felt this and that but... I somehow feel disconnected. Their feelings don't get across me.

Which is why I becomes a harsher judge to their reactions.

Ryukishi says they're not thinking straight and it makes sense but, as if their feelings don't reach me I just feel more prone telling them 'stop acting dumb' than saying 'okay, I can feel you aren't thinking straight so I understand if you act dumb'.

So I really want to see the manga version of it because the manga does a way better job to allow us to emphatize with the characters than the VN and maybe if there's more emphatic connection it'll make more sense.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Ryukishi says they're not thinking straight and it makes sense but, as if their feelings don't reach me I just feel more prone telling them 'stop acting dumb' than saying 'okay, I can feel you aren't thinking straight so I understand if you act dumb'.

I haven't read the translation from EP3 onwards, though normally it was really well done, but maybe the language gap made it harder to create a proper connect here?! I remember that I had less of an emotional problem feeling a connection when I read it...but maybe that's also just me.

I think this is also an thing of having a point of reference. Everyone can kind of associate with being treated unfairly as a child or standing in front of apparently impossible problems as an adult...but very few would have ever stood in a position where you are given power over someones life AND standing in front of a huge fortune that could vanish in the blink of an eye.

I also think that Ryukishi went a little bit too far out on a limb here, the situation is not only hard to relate to, it's also so far away from most moral cores that we hold dear to our hearts. We all tell us, we would never ever act like this in a situation, because we are rational and calm and we've seen this so many times in stories, we would know how to behave...like the guys who feel confident about surviving a zombie apocalypse because they have seen so many movies and played games.

I also understand why some people say that the characters are too intelligent to "act that stupid", not only because we refuse to believe that intelligent characters would act stupid but because it would lessen the logic behind the plot.
It's back to the old argument of "It advertised itself as a fuckin' mystery, it better live up to that, or else..."

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I haven't read the translation from EP3 onwards, though normally it was really well done, but maybe the language gap made it harder to create a proper connect here?! I remember that I had less of an emotional problem feeling a connection when I read it...but maybe that's also just me.

I think this is also an thing of having a point of reference. Everyone can kind of associate with being treated unfairly as a child or standing in front of apparently impossible problems as an adult...but very few would have ever stood in a position where you are given power over someones life AND standing in front of a huge fortune that could vanish in the blink of an eye.

I also think that Ryukishi went a little bit too far out on a limb here, the situation is not only hard to relate to, it's also so far away from most moral cores that we hold dear to our hearts. We all tell us, we would never ever act like this in a situation, because we are rational and calm and we've seen this so many times in stories, we would know how to behave...like the guys who feel confident about surviving a zombie apocalypse because they have seen so many movies and played games.

I also understand why some people say that the characters are too intelligent to "act that stupid", not only because we refuse to believe that intelligent characters would act stupid but because it would lessen the logic behind the plot.
It's back to the old argument of "It advertised itself as a fuckin' mystery, it better live up to that, or else..."

I don't know, I don't think it's poorly translated, it just... to me it didn't express well their feelings but sort of generalize them. We get told many time they just were 'blinded by the gold' but the only one that seems really out of her mind is Eva who's really overexcited right from when they start with trying to solve the epitaph till the end (and she's the only one who's rude/abusive toward Rosa so maybe that's supposed to explain Rosa's behaviour with her later on). The've a moment, when they manage to remove the first key, in which everyone sounds excited, even Kyrie who stammered for a moment but then Kyrie remained calm for the rest of the time.
The others seemed slightly more excited even if not over the top (we're told they are but they just don't feel like it) but then Krauss calmed down soon and acted without reasons as a first class jerk through and through.

No one could properly counter him when it would have been so very easy (and okay, Eva's out of it so she can't and Rosa isn't the sharpest pencil in the box but I would expect Kyrie or Rudolf or even Hideyoshi to see through Krauss' bluff, as Krauss isn't really in the best situation).

The acceptance of the witch's words is weird (as well as how they were unconcerned about who could have sent them the letter), only Eva seems to find the situation odd and even the arguing is slightly off as that was more a moment of celebration and not really the moment to worry about how to split the gold as it's not they could do it right then.

The whole situation that lead to Krauss and Natsuhi's death... is poorly handed. I couldn't get who was where and what they were doing to put it very simply (I'm writing down my thoughts on a page of words and really, it's a mess) and once Kyrie shoots at Rosa is stupid she feels the need to explain things to Eva before shooting her.

It's also stupid how Rosa, after being told how difficult it would be to turn the gold into cash, is still believing they can do it. In addition if Eva turns herself in, they'll also have to explain where Natsuhi was shot and the gold will be taken away. But I can wave it off with Rosa being angry at Eva.

As a result despite being told many times by the narrative that they're blinded by the gold I can see the most of them only acting dumb, not in an overemotional state (or whatever you would call the feeling of being blinded by the gold). As getting greedy didn't equal to getting stupid it all really doesn't make sense.

Also, even if Krauss wanted to give them less gold, once you do the math you realize that with no killing Kyrie would have gotten more gold if no one had died so, since she claimed she calmly and rationally analyzed the situation, it was in her best interest not just let people being shoot but keep everyone calm.

Also how Kyrie failed to shoot at Eva in the room of the gold and didn't even notice the bullet grazed at her head despite claiming to be good with guns, how she aimed at the head when it's much better for amateurs and professionals to aim at the stomach, hos she didn't realize the damage she did wasn't fatal...

How Rudolf isn't bothered at all his siblings had been killed by his wife in cold blood but it's perfectly calm... I don't know, if everyone's so calm why didn't handle the thing better?

Bah, the only thing that's interesting to me is that the fact that Ange and Lion are there to watch it might represent the fact that Ange read the diary while Lion is metaphorically prepresenting Yasu, who was there watching the scene. Because the teaparty also contains the George/Shannon scene that surely couldn't be in Eva's diary but that Yasu should have lived.

What bothers me instead is the scene in which Battler felt he's jealous. It has no purpose whatsoever and couldn't be known by Sayo or Eva. It just seems a bonus but if that's the case I would have apprecciated to have it in another point.

Also, I've read your comparation of Ep 4 and the Teaparty and yes, it's interesting.
I also want to go through the various episodes and compare them.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

As getting greedy didn't equal to getting stupid it all really doesn't make sense.

I think, at least for Ryukishi, it does in that situation. They are not only blinded BY the gold, it also makes them blind towards reasonable behavior. They all claim that what their doing is rationalizing something, but in the end they are all just trying to get the lion's share.

They all have additional pressure on them that compels them to get money fast, not only for them but (on a surface level) for their families as well.
Krauss has gambled the whole island away and is basically living on loaned property, having committed fraud and embezzlement on pretty high levels.
Eva is standing alone at the side of a husband who is in the process of being bought out of his own company.
Rudolph has major debts, his import business is failing and he is in with the yakuza.
Rosa's company is close to bankruptcy and she still has a huge loan that her husband left her.
And they all apparently need the money now. It's a situation where it would be understandable to be not thinking straight, even if you try to rationalize what you are doing. I don't know if it'd helped if Kyrie had cackled maniacally while shooting people, but I wouldn't be surprised if the thought behind her depiction was that she also rationalized a lot of her actions towards herself .

How Rudolf isn't bothered at all his siblings had been killed by his wife in cold blood but it's perfectly calm... I don't know, if everyone's so calm why didn't handle the thing better?

I think a lot of difference is made between being calm and appearing indifferent. At least when we go by the same logic that applies to most of Umineko, it leaves room to speculate that, while they appeared calm, they were actually not on the inside.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think, at least for Ryukishi, it does in that situation. They are not only blinded BY the gold, it also makes them blind towards reasonable behavior. They all claim that what their doing is rationalizing something, but in the end they are all just trying to get the lion's share.

They all have additional pressure on them that compels them to get money fast, not only for them but (on a surface level) for their families as well.
Krauss has gambled the whole island away and is basically living on loaned property, having committed fraud and embezzlement on pretty high levels.
Eva is standing alone at the side of a husband who is in the process of being bought out of his own company.
Rudolph has major debts, his import business is failing and he is in with the yakuza.
Rosa's company is close to bankruptcy and she still has a huge loan that her husband left her.
And they all apparently need the money now. It's a situation where it would be understandable to be not thinking straight, even if you try to rationalize what you are doing. I don't know if it'd helped if Kyrie had cackled maniacally while shooting people, but I wouldn't be surprised if the thought behind her depiction was that she also rationalized a lot of her actions towards herself .

There are 2 problems to this.
1 is that Kyrie will say for them to get out of troubles and even save enough money to quit working and move on a lone island or something 1 billion is enough.

This means if they split the money equally as they demand it'll be 5.250 milions for each of them and if they don't it'll be 2.400 milions for them and the other siblings (while Krauss gets 12.900 milions), respectively around 5 time or around 2 times and a half what they would get by killing everyone and taking only the cash.

In short, even by accepting Krauss' proposition not only they would have had way more than enough to solve their problems, but more than by killing everyone. So the let's massacre everyone plan basically is counterproductive.

The same probably applies to everyone else.

They don't really need 5 billions to survive (or nearly 13 in Krauss' case). So it's not stress talking dictated by need (which I would have understood) is just greed.

The second problem is that the so called gold blindness Ryukishi insist they have is not convincibly transmitted by the narrative as far as I'm involved. It gets a little better if you listen the audio version.

Originally Posted by haguruma

I think a lot of difference is made between being calm and appearing indifferent. At least when we go by the same logic that applies to most of Umineko, it leaves room to speculate that, while they appeared calm, they were actually not on the inside.

Well, yes, they could be apparently calm but... the fact they don't transmit what they feel ends up on working against the plot. As many said they end up feeling out of character, unnecessary dumb.

Of course it could be that Ryukishi chose to assume we would manage to get in the shoes of someone who's feeling something people commonly don't get to feel way more easily so as to immediately empathize with them when actually... oh can I put it... he needed to set the mood more carefully because no, finding billions of gold, wanting to claim them all for yourself being willing to kill or watching others kill your siblings isn't exactly an everyday experience for normal people.

Still, I hope the manga will better set the mood for the whole thing because so far it doesn't work well for me.

Also, please, please, let it make more sense of the scuffle that lead to the massacre in the golden room because the VN represent the action scenes going on in quite a messy way.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In short, even by accepting Krauss' proposition not only they would have had way more than enough to solve their problems, but more than by killing everyone. So the let's massacre everyone plan basically is counterproductive.

There are two problems I see in this situation:
(A) The conversion of the gold into money would have to be left to Krauss, who they don't trust. And can you blame them? This man and his wife hid their father's death for 2 years and embezzled the whole company's fortune. Would you trust that man not to run off with the money the second he left your sight?
The others aren't any more trustworthy, they all played with hidden cards, keeping their individual problems private in order to avoid showing weakness.

(B) The plan to convert the gold vanished the second Natsuhi was shot in the struggle with Eva. Krauss looses his temper and even if he hadn't been shot in the struggle with Hideyoshi, who was protecting Eva, he wouldn't have cooperated that easily anymore. And as soon as he was dead, the chance to convert the gold was gone.

This sets up a new problem: Destroy the bodies and loose the gold vs. keep the gold and keep the bodies
Rosa is a greedy dreamer, who is often lost in her own world, much like her own daughter. By demanding that she wants the full share including the worth of the gold she positions herself and Eva in a dead-lock. She can't even be hit unconscious and carried out, since she could just confess Eva's guilt to the police afterwards...and Eva is to proud to sacrifice her family's name over something like this.

Kyrie's and Rudolph's behavior is pretty understandable as well, so far they are not involved in any of the violence and they are in a state where they can calculate the situation since they are not under fire.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by haguruma

There are two problems I see in this situation:
(A) The conversion of the gold into money would have to be left to Krauss, who they don't trust. And can you blame them? This man and his wife hid their father's death for 2 years and embezzled the whole company's fortune. Would you trust that man not to run off with the money the second he left your sight?

No, but they have things they can hold over him in order to make him comply, most notably the hiding of the death and the embezzlement. Krauss could have swizzled them out of their fair share, but he would need to give them enough money to make it worth their while not to dob him in despite that.

Krauss probably wouldn't convert all the money and skip the country with it. Jessica and Natsuhi would be unlikely to be on board with that, at least.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Krauss probably wouldn't convert all the money and skip the country with it. Jessica and Natsuhi would be unlikely to be on board with that, at least.

And it's the word probably that turns a normal conversation into a powder keg.
We saw how they jumped at each others' throats when it was only about hypothetical money...imagine how tense they get when the money is literally in front of them.

Yes, you can pull a double-trick by threatening Krauss with revealing his actions to the authorities, but then he can pull another bunny out of the hat and say that by doing that the money would be automatically lost to them as well...since it's legally not even THEIR gold.
Again, a dead-lock...

Now imagine how their minds must have run in circles, with having actually a lot more at stake then us, who are just debating purely theoretically.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Yes, you can pull a double-trick by threatening Krauss with revealing his actions to the authorities, but then he can pull another bunny out of the hat and say that by doing that the money would be automatically lost to them as well...since it's legally not even THEIR gold.
Again, a dead-lock...

While broadly I agree with what you're saying and the difference between debating things here and in a tense situation, I don't think that is a deadlock. If Krauss doesn't give them enough money for it to be worth their while, and they threaten to dob him in, Krauss can't threaten them further because the deal he would have given them would already not be worth their while. Krauss' threat there would only take effect in a situation where he had already given them the minimum amount they would accept without turning him in to the authorities.

[Leafsnail]

Krauss was dead by the time Kyrie made her move anyway. She couldn't accept his offer even if she wanted to.

Incidentally, has anyone considered the implications of Lion's death in the E7TP? Even with no Beatrice, no Battler and no epitaph Kyrie still kills people in 1986. I'm not really sure what to make of that - does Kyrie have a lot more knowledge than we think she does, allowing her to know about the bomb even without Yasu? Does she just bug out over Battler's parentage regardless? Is she trying to seize the Ushiromiya headship for Rudolf/Battler since she doesn't know about the gold?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

There are two problems I see in this situation:
(A) The conversion of the gold into money would have to be left to Krauss, who they don't trust. And can you blame them? This man and his wife hid their father's death for 2 years and embezzled the whole company's fortune. Would you trust that man not to run off with the money the second he left your sight?
The others aren't any more trustworthy, they all played with hidden cards, keeping their individual problems private in order to avoid showing weakness.

Eva is furious so I can give her some slack but still killing Krauss or handling him all the money for Kyrie should equal to the same. She doesn't believe without Krauss they can convert it ergo they can either bet on Krauss or on the witch (Beato converted some of the gold so she has the meanings to do so) or give up on any extra. Betting on Krauss is less risky that allowing an overly upset Eva to wave around a gun she's not really good at using risking someone to get shot.

That was the moment in which she should have said: calm down everyone and let's think at this rationally. And then she should have pulled off the fact that Krauss hid Kinzo's death and if they don't get their share of the gold as hush money they'll inform the police (something that got mentioned not so much ago) and Jessica about it and by the way if they really want to play the criminal side they can take Natsuhi and Jessica as obstages and blackmail him further.

So it's not really a problem of trust, more a problem of getting nothing versus the chance they might get something. And even if they keep the cash and share it in 3 they'll probably have enough to cover their debt. 300 milions were more than enough to cover Eva's debt or so Eva says.

So it's also the rush that doesn't get really justified. The gold isn't getting anywhere and they've all the time in the world to force Krauss to hand it.

If worse came to worse they can even threaten him by saying he found the illegal gold so that he too wouldn't get it.

Kyrie is described as someone calm and that can reason but really, it doesn't seem like she's doing it much. And Hideyoshi had always calmed her wife previously and now that she's holding a gun he's quiet?

Originally Posted by haguruma

(B) The plan to convert the gold vanished the second Natsuhi was shot in the struggle with Eva. Krauss looses his temper and even if he hadn't been shot in the struggle with Hideyoshi, who was protecting Eva, he wouldn't have cooperated that easily anymore. And as soon as he was dead, the chance to convert the gold was gone.

And the scuffle is a really weak point in the plot as it's explained horribly.

We have:

Eva who gets a gun and starts a scuffle with Krauss, who claims Eva is scaring them but evidently his fear isn't stopping him from having a scuffle with her... and probably he's right in not being scared as she's not shooting at him.

We assume that now logically people will pay them attention, that Krauss is probably trying to rip the gun away from Eva and that Hideyoshi is either defending his wife from Krauss or telling Eva to put down the gun as it's dangerous but no, we've no info on what Hideyoshi or Rosa are doing, we're only told that after Eva got the gun and Krauss started a scuffle with her Natsuhi is arguing with Rudolf and Kyrie.

Then all of sudden Natsuhi jumps on Eva and Eva ends up shooting her

So hum... Natsuhi dropped the discussion she was having with Rudolf and Kyrie, pushed away Krauss and jumped on Eva? No idea but let's assume so.

Eva drops her gun claiming she was an accident but Krauss, while holding his own, run toward her aiming to tear her to pieces. Hideyoshi gets in between and Krauss is shoot.

So... all of sudden Krauss is holding a gun? When did he get it? Why if he get it after Natsuhi was shot didn't he use it to shoot Eva? How far he got he so suddently that he has room to run toward her? And why now Hideyoshi gets in between? Why not before? His wife was holding a gun while being furious and could have shot someone and even if she hadn't wasn't she having a scuffle with Krauss, a man?

And yay, now everyone suddently has guns because apparently Rosa as one too. She argues without fear with Eva who evidently recovered her gun which she had dropped but neither shoot until Kyrie shoot Rosa because evidently Kyrie got a gun as well.

When had Rosa gotten her gun? Why had she gotten it? She's not afraid of Eva, for once she sounds way overconfident. She's not using the gun to threaten Eva as there would be no point as Eva has her own gun which Rosa courteously allowed her to retrieve as Eva had dropped it few minutes ago. If Rosa wanted to shoot Eva she could have done it without trying to talk her into confessing everything to the police, she could have done it when Eva tried to pick up the gun claiming she wanted to use it to kill them. I'll say Rosa didn't want to kill anyone, nor was afraid of being killed since she let Eva get the gun.

Kyrie starts talking explaining to Eva how stupid Rosa's plan was and why she had to kill her. Oh but wait, Eva had dropped her gun somewhere in all this again because at her feet there are her gun and Krauss'. Kyrie courteously informs them she had to kill Rosa FIRST because for her it would be easier to shoot while Hideyoshi and Eva would be slowed by the fact it's not so easy to recharge the guns then let them try to pick up the guns before shooting at Hideyoshi's chest. Eva has all the time to try to recharge but fail so Kyrie reminds her it's not so easy, recharges and shoot at Eva's head, vaguely grazing it because evidently her aim suck even if it's unlikely she's that far from Eva and the best place to shoot at her would have been her chest like she did with Hideyoshi.

And why in the world Kyrie wasted so much time explaining things? If she's so good at recharging after shoot ing at Rosa couldn't she have shoot at Eva and Hideyoshi, possibly without giving them the chance to try and shoot at her? Or maybe if she really wanted to shoot at them wasn't it better to try and persuade them to move away from the guns so that she wouldn't risk being shoot? She basically even informed them it was difficult to recharge so they had to be careful! And how could she know Eva and Hideyoshi had no enough ability to recharge those guns? Hideyoshi lived through the war and was a man, he could be familiar with guns. The guns are Kinzo's so Eva might have seen him using them even if maybe she had never been allowed to try them. She should have just shoot them immediately instead of chatting as that's what she planned to do.

That's what I mean with the scuffle being poorly handled. Natsuhi should have jumped on Eva immediately, before Eva started having a scuffle with Krauss and Eva should have shot Krauss short after before Krauss managed to get a gun he didn't plan to use and that I don't even know how he got as it should be Eva the one near the guns as she was the first to grab one and Krauss is far from her if he has to run to her (why anyway? Wasn't they having a scuffle?).
Rudolf should have grabbed the other gun.
Kyrie should have shoot Rosa, Hideyoshi and Eva immediately or even better Rosa could have shoot Eva when she picked up the gun (and only grazed her and cause her to faint) and then Kyrie could have finished off Rosa and Hideyoshi.
It would have made more sense if it was Rosa who made a mistake in shooting and did it in self defence.

So I really need some manga visual aid because the way the novel paint it... well it doesn't come out very well...

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Krauss was dead by the time Kyrie made her move anyway. She couldn't accept his offer even if she wanted to.

Incidentally, has anyone considered the implications of Lion's death in the E7TP? Even with no Beatrice, no Battler and no epitaph Kyrie still kills people in 1986. I'm not really sure what to make of that - does Kyrie have a lot more knowledge than we think she does, allowing her to know about the bomb even without Yasu? Does she just bug out over Battler's parentage regardless? Is she trying to seize the Ushiromiya headship for Rudolf/Battler since she doesn't know about the gold?

Maybe deep down Sayo was hoping they'll accept her in the family and she'll sort of become Lion?
I've been wondering if Lion watching the Teaparty with Ange just symbolize Yasu watching it all play out in front of her without having a chance to do anything.
Yet Kyrie shoot Sayo, definitely cutting off any chance she had of becoming some sort of Lion.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's actually perfectly valid; it's literally one of the biggest tropes in post-modern fiction.

I'm not saying it isn't a valid trope, and it's certainly an interesting idea, but at least as far as Umineko is concerned ... I've gotten the impression that Ryukishi had a solid idea of who these people were, and portrayed them faithfully. I just don't find much evidence for one to seriously consider otherwise.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I'm sure some people would cry foul. But why would Kyrie care? Nobody can prove anything, and she can tell a fairly plausible story in which she is the victim. Heck, no-one would even be able eto come up with a plausible scenario in which Kyrie is guilty - did she take tonnes of explosives with her on the boat or what?

Yeah, she can make up whatever story she wants, but as far as actually enjoying the rest of her life and absurd amounts of money, having other survivors just seems to make things easier, without requiring further work. George / Jessica / Maria wouldn't have any choice but to believe whatever Kyrie or Rudolf decided to tell them. It just seems like killing the kids/servants makes things harder.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Incidentally, has anyone considered the implications of Lion's death in the E7TP? Even with no Beatrice, no Battler and no epitaph Kyrie still kills people in 1986. I'm not really sure what to make of that - does Kyrie have a lot more knowledge than we think she does, allowing her to know about the bomb even without Yasu? Does she just bug out over Battler's parentage regardless? Is she trying to seize the Ushiromiya headship for Rudolf/Battler since she doesn't know about the gold?

This is one of the reasons everyone assumed/s that Bern was basically being mean for the sake of being mean (which, I mean, she kind of was, nonetheless). In Lion's world, Krauss is only hiding embezzlement, Natsuhi probably doesn't even know about the embezzlement because Kinzo isn't dead, and the bank card that Kyrolf tries to get wouldn't even exist. One must assume Kinzo takes Beatrice's place in the gold room, to explain the bomb mechanism, but would he completely bow out of the discussion in the same way that Beatrice did? With winchesters in the room?

I like to think that probably Bern was just being a dick.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

And yay, now everyone suddently has guns because apparently Rosa as one too. She argues without fear with Eva who evidently recovered her gun which she had dropped but neither shoot until Kyrie shoot Rosa because evidently Kyrie got a gun as well.

I agree with many of your points (Natsuhi jumps from arguing with Kyrolf, to physically grabbing Eva?), but to be fair the narration said that the 4 guns had already been picked up. Based on what we see, it seems each of the siblings had picked up one.

I'd personally be much more interested in the part of the discussion where the first person decided to pick up a gun, because THAT'S when things get really off track for them.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Kealym

This is one of the reasons everyone assumed/s that Bern was basically being mean for the sake of being mean (which, I mean, she kind of was, nonetheless). In Lion's world, Krauss is only hiding embezzlement, Natsuhi probably doesn't even know about the embezzlement because Kinzo isn't dead, and the bank card that Kyrolf tries to get wouldn't even exist. One must assume Kinzo takes Beatrice's place in the gold room, to explain the bomb mechanism, but would he completely bow out of the discussion in the same way that Beatrice did? With winchesters in the room?

I like to think that probably Bern was just being a dick.

Well, I see Bern in that moment as the representation of life/fate/whatever so... not as something so nice considering how things went. And theoretically Bern is the representation of a rather low chance of something happening so it makes sense.

But we don't know if Krauss was doing something... Kinzo was alive and probably in full control of his finances and it's possible if the siblings had asked him help the past year they weren't even that much in troubles...

I prefer to think Lion being there as symbolic of Sayo being forced to watch what had happened back then. To see what she had caused after having maybe hoped that since the outcome wasn't so bad she could meet a happy ending too.

Originally Posted by Kealym

I agree with many of your points (Natsuhi jumps from arguing with Kyrolf, to physically grabbing Eva?), but to be fair the narration said that the 4 guns had already been picked up. Based on what we see, it seems each of the siblings had picked up one.

I'd personally be much more interested in the part of the discussion where the first person decided to pick up a gun, because THAT'S when things get really off track for them.

Yes but the narration also say Krauss was having a scuffle with Eva while... he was also holding a gun? What were they doing, waving them against each others as if they were swords? Honestly I was hoping that part only wanted to imply they would get the gun, not that they already have them because again, if they all grabbed them, they all should have pointed them against Krauss and corner him. One gun against 3 doesn't really stand much chances... and why if Rosa is holding a gun no one is paying her attention and she's doing nothing?

And shouldn't Rudolf worry about his wife who's facing Rudolf and Kyrie while Kyrie have a gun and she doesn't? And why would Natsuhi focus on Eva when she's under gun threath by Kyrie?

No, really, it makes even less sense if they already has the guns (and the manga didn't seem to show them as having them when Krauss is shoot so I hope it'll fix this...)