Toradora! Generic discussion thread

[Darknemo2000]

She doesn't really sit there (as in sitting on ones own free will), she just fell and once she gathered what were and when the scene ends... Making it very likely she just rushed after the cookies without bothering about Ryuuji all that much.

If it would be standart tsundere de-icing path then there would be dere moments towards Ryuuji (as he is her tsun reciever) yet they are almsot non-existant.

Its weird taht she has no real dere moments despite taht she actually ahs the most dere scenes from all tsundere's ever at this point... But again we are talking about dere in combination with tsun, meaning - relationship with Ryuuji and there she doesn't show much of sweetness and is a bitch to a really nice and kind man. Again I believe that most of other bitchy tsunderes would have been much nicer than Taigha in given situation if they would have to deal with Ryyuji rather than likes like Saitos, Keitaros and so on.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

She doesn't really sit there (as in sitting on ones own free will), she just fell and once she gathered what were and when the scene ends... Making it very likely she just rushed after the cookies without bothering about Ryuuji all that much.

If it would be standart tsundere de-icing path then there would be dere moments towards Ryuuji (as he is her tsun reciever) yet they are almsot non-existant.

Its weird taht she has no real dere moments despite taht she actually ahs the most dere scenes from all tsundere's ever at this point... But again we are talking about dere in combination with tsun, meaning - relationship with Ryuuji and there she doesn't show much of sweetness and is a bitch to a really nice and kind man. Again I believe that most of other bitchy tsunderes would have been much nicer than Taigha in given situation if they would have to deal with Ryyuji rather than likes like Saitos, Keitaros and so on.

The very first thing she did after falling is say Ryuuji's name in a concerned voice. Yeah, the scene was cut short, but the concern for him is still there. From all your posts you seem to be very unfair to the anime. While it may not be as great as the sources (depending on who you ask), I don't really think it's the travesty you act like it is...

[Darknemo2000]

For me it sounded more as of wondering what is happening (thus calling his name as he grabbed her), rather than being concerned of his well being.

And by the way, I think Taiga is pretty bad in novels as well... In anime she is just more physical.

I never really liked her, be it novels or anime, she is just slightly less annoying in novels and manga. The problem that there aren't many like-able heroines in here...Taiga, Minori or Ami...and neither are good choices.

But I like Ryuuji. A nice character makes it a worthwhile. Plus a story in itself is entertaining if you ignore Taiga being mean to him.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Does it matter how much "tsun" or how much "dere" actually? To me, what matters is the story. The story and characters are compelling which why I sticking around watching this series.

[Darknemo2000]

Well those tsund and dere is fairly important, as it make her look still rather bitchy (the current combination - mostly all dere go to Kitamura, and all tsun go to Ryuuji that is). It's a little bit sad to see Ryuuji being treated like that.

But I do agree the story is all that matters and it is captivating (if not as much in anime as in novel and manga so far), even though I don't really like half of the characters.

[Megrim27]

I found ep. 4 to be not very abusive at all. Normally I dislike that kind of relationship and was almost turned off the show after the first episode. However, I enjoyed this episode as I found the interaction between Taiga and Ryuuji really amusing To me, it didn't seem like she really treated Ryuuji any different than say, her interaction with Ami. After all, she is called the palm-sized Tiger for a reason. So it makes sense that she acts rather bristly with everyone. The fact that the only two exceptions to this are Kitamura and Kushieda makes her interaction with Ryuuji seem to stand out, since we haven't seen her with anyone else really.

When I watched this episode, I saw a number of incidents where I thought "If this were a typical tusndere moment, she would've beaten the crap out of him.", but she didn't. In fact she didn't respond at all in a few of those moments. The few times where she did have extreme outbursts only seemed to be at moments of high embarrasment. Yes, she takes him for granted and bosses him around a bit, but I see that as more run of the mill self-centeredness than meanness.

[Darknemo2000]

Could you list where she would have beaten Ryuuji in typical tsundere manner? I do not see those places - the only ones where she would - she did.

And if she is a bitch to Ami... Does that make her being mean to Ryuuji better? I do not really think so.

And again - I do not se real partnership in their relationship. So far Ryuuji is mostly giving while Taiga is just taking. It is not what I would call a partnership with both being in equal positions. The only things that she is giving are the moments that Ryuuji interpretations as giving like her opening herself more.

But her opening herself more doesn't mean that she is actually helping Ryuuji with his things or with Monori, as we can see from episode 3 it is mostly quite opposite - she is actually creating more obstacles instead,while demand Ryuuji to help with her love interest. That's not a partnership really.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

But her opening herself more doesn't mean that she is actually helping Ryuuji with his things or with Monori, as we can see from episode 3 it is mostly quite opposite - she is actually creating more obstacles instead,while demand Ryuuji to help with her love interest. That's not a partnership really.

I don't recall anything of such.

In the end, it just seem that your tsun threshold is just low (50% tsun limit only? Come on ). Putting aside her initial apparently in the first episode, Taiga hasn't been terribly out of line at all, well for someone of her arch-type. In all seriousness, what Ryuuji is going through right now is within reasonable range.

He wants Taiga to help him for his love life, in return, he would help her with hers. That was the deal, Everything else is by his own free-will; After the 2nd episode when she 'relieve' him of his service to her, he still choose to support her. He chose to 'take-care' of her, and I'm sure most of what he does, he isn't expecting any repayment.

The fact that they could still hold normal conversations like civilized people, is more than a great improvement for me.

Now, if Taiga outright refuse to help him when he had asked for it (without good reason of course), then that would be a violation of their agreement. Until then, I still see it as a reasonable partnership.


EDIT:

Mah~ for me anyway, seeing as how they're friends instead of a couple, it's much easier to let things slide.

[Darknemo2000]

Well I would not call her trying to stab his eyes out or trying to kick him while he was looking/thinking of Minori very pleasant. Besides such relationship where (help me get with my love interest and only then I may let you try something with my friend) really equal on terms to be called partnership.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Well I would not call her trying to stab his eyes out or trying to kick him while he was looking/thinking of Minori very pleasant.

But That's what friends do !

Don't tell me you never hit your friend for doing something stupid (Taiga was right you know, he did look stupid... I'm just saying...)

Hell, I kick my best friend in the groin for less.


[/shameless]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Besides such relationship where (help me get with my love interest and only then I may let you try something with my friend) really equal on terms to be called partnership.

True, but 'partnership' gives off a vibe that says 'its just business', but that doesn't seem to be the case for them.

[Darknemo2000]

I hit my friends when we fool around but not when they are in love with someones...

If I would hit them and say that they are stupid looking because they are in love I doubt that friendship would last too long. Everyone have their level of tolerance after all, and insulting one because he is in love does put that under the test. Maybe a few jabs about that here and there with a the drink but definitely not hitting for it.

Friends means being equal. Of course there are those fake friendships where weaker becomes a 'friend' of a stronger. but if we talk about real friendship than you have to be on equal ground, and there is no equal ground in terms of Taiga and Ryuuji relationship.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Friends means being equal. Of coiurse there are those fake friendships where weaker becomes a 'friend' of a stronger.

That's not completely true either. There is of course your example, but another way of saying it is the 'strong' helping the 'weak'.

Are you saying those are fake as well?

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

but if we talk about real friendship than you have to be on equal ground, and there is no equal ground in terms of Taiga and Ryuuji relationship.

You see, what you're doing is that you're keeping scores.

That's not how things work.

Being friends means never needing to remember stuff like that.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

I hit my friends when we fool around but not when they are in love with someones...

If I would hit them and say that they are stupid looking because they are in love I doubt that friendship would last too long.

So you would let them continue to look stupid?

Okay, I guess... >.>

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Everyone have their level of tolerance after all, and insulting one because he is in love does put that under the test. Maybe a few jabs about that here and there with a the drink but definitely not hitting for it.

Nono, this is going the wrong way; I never said Taiga hit him for liking someone

[Darknemo2000]

It is not about scores but both putting something in that relationship. If only one tries to be a friend while other is not then it is just a one-sided friendship that will not last long.

And so far Taiga hasn't really done anything about it. It is Ryuuji that comes to her and tells I will be dragon next you - Taiga doesn't really do anything about it. She just keeps that attitude that she is first and only he can come second in the anime. It is Ryuuji that tries to keep the relationship and tries to help her out but Taiga herself doesn't really put much into that relationship.

And being a friend doesn't mean putting obstacles in ones love either, specially not because your own personal intentions. You are not being friendly, you are just being mean.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

But being a friend doesn't mean putting obstacles in ones love either, specially not because your own personal intentions. You are not being friendly, you are just being mean.

What obstacles ?

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

It is not about scores but both putting something in that relationship. If only one tries to be a friend while other is not then it is just a one-sided friendship that will not last long.

Erm yeah, that's call taking scores.

Taiga is someone he can talk to, it's not like there's anyone else he can share about his crush, nor is there anyone else who can understand what it's like to be alone because people are afraid of you.

And sometimes, that's really enough... To know that there is someone who understands and that you can talk to.

Going out of your way to help that someone? That's a bonus.

[Darknemo2000]

Whenever taiga has a chance to push Minori and Ryuuji closer she doesn't (it is more obvious in the novels) . She just try to get in their way like in episode three.

Yes, her kicking him around is definitely a sign of mutual understanding.

He doesn't really open himself all that much to her. It is Taiga who opens more to him...And that has a reason..Ryuuji is indeed more understanding and ready to listen...I can't say the same about Taiga, though.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Whenever taiga has a chance to push Minori and Ryuuji closer she doesn't (it is more obvious in the novels) . She just try to get in their way like in episode three.

Well, it's good that we're just referring to episode 3 right ?

In the end, she still brought him to where Minori works right? In the end he still gets to understand her better right?

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Yes, her kicking him around is definitely a sign of mutual understanding.

Exactly, they've reached a point where they're comfortable (Used to) around violence.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

He doenst really open himself all that much to her. It is Taiga who opends more to him...And that has a reason..Ryuuji is indeed more understanding and ready to lsiten...I can'ty say the same about Taiga, though.

That's because Ryuuji doesn't have as much pressing issues as her.

You can't expect her to fix what's not broken.

And for the record, I don't believe friendship is all about equality. Being on equal footing is nice and all, but what is really needed is just one common bond, which these two have. And because it doesn't seem like Ryuuji would be able to find someone else, he wants to help her.

[Darknemo2000]

If they are comfortable with them being physical then why Ryuuji is not being physical with her knocking sense into her when she is drooling?

If he is being a getelman then it means he is still distancing enough to not be comfortable with such physical relationship.

It was not Taiga's own intent to help him understand Minori either, and it would have helped if she would not have been hunting him like some crazy psycho and would have left them to understand each other more properly without butting in.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

If they are comfortable with them being physical then why Ryuuji is not being physical with her knocking sense into her when she is drooling?

If he is being a getelman then it means he is still distancing enough to not be comfortable with such physical relationship.

No, he's being smart.

Getting physical with her would result in twice the payment, and in case you've forgotten, the girl is no pushover.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

It was not Taiga's own intent to help him understand Minori either, and it would have helped if she would not have been hunting him like some crazy psycho and would have left them to understand each other more properly without butting in.

Well anybody would be pissed if they were doing all the work while the other person is fooling around.

And for that matter, the two of them were already about to escape. Escape would mean "Bye bye, see you tomorrow at school!"

SO in that sense...Taiga helped prolong his time with Minori.

[Darknemo2000]

But then there is afear element in such frienship. he is afraid of taiga to get physical... Meaning that they are not open to each other to the point of not being afraid.

If anyone would, why Ryuuji isnt? I mean when he does all the hard work and Taiga just drools? Is he some kind of saint?

Not really, he is just a real friend that supports the other, something that Taiga is not.

And how did landing on ones face would mean prolonging it? For all you know they might have a real nice goodbye saying but now it is spoiled be Taiga... It will still end and is not prolonged since Taiga is between them so it is the same as in school anyway.

But we should stop with that... we already been discussing for an almost a page here.

[Vexx]

This is an example of people seeing the exact same events and taking very different things out of them with their interpretations.