2011-08-19, 21:55 | Link #61 | |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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There are bad shows that are original and cliche shows that are good. And Hell yeah for Time of Eve and C:AS. (b'_')b Or this, more or less.
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2011-08-20, 00:56 | Link #62 | |
Loves the Experience
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Earth...hopefully
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Concerning pandering, it all depends on how you pander. I personally tend to find the ones that insult your intelligence terrible. Also, I hate it when a show panders to the audience in the same manner multiple times. As for all the originality talk, all I have to say is that there's a difference between introducing something new to the world and coming up with an idea so stupid that there's a reason no one has implemented it. There's a reason anime like School Days (I'm aware of the cult following) is mostly left to the hentai industry. Is it overrated? Maybe, but it should still exist, because as pointed out, many good things arise from it. However, while I don't believe unoriginality hurts a movie's quality, it can hurt your enjoyment. And Hell will have to unfreeze before I will like something as unoriginal and dated as "The Matrix" or "Dragonball Z".
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2011-08-20, 01:49 | Link #63 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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Should not have made her attractive to begin with, tbh. It's like Sephiroth, portrayed as a total dick and monster and yet his fanboys praises him for being a nihilistic badass and his fangirls just squee over him and his yaois.
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2011-08-20, 03:03 | Link #65 | ||||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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Dropping in quickly (my schedule is nuts right now)
Re: tropes vs. pandering I think there's an argument to be made that Infinite Stratos needed more pandering and less tropes. No, I'm being serious about that one. Quote:
Actually, from my experiences with some pretty hardcore anime fans, I'd say that one reason Madoka and Penguin Drum are such huge hits is because they hit on a lot of things otaku love that don't get captured in the typically "creepy horny fanboy" stereotype. The only question is whether the directors were pandering to their audiences or their own tastes. Of course these shows can be enjoyed by those outside the hardcore otaku demographics (I really want to show Madoka to one of my uncles who is a sci-fi/fantasy fan who loves twisted stuff), but to be honest I could say the same thing about K-On!, especially with the airing on the Japanese Disney channel. (One other note about K-On!: I've talked before about how I think the reason season two is better is because the staff had more leeway to get away from some of the more pandering gags... well, I get the feeling that season two is much more the kind of show the director wanted to make.) Quote:
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2011-08-20, 03:48 | Link #66 | ||||||||||||||||||
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I could show Madoka Magica to someone who has never watched an anime before (let alone a magical girl anime specifically) and they would have no problem following the story, comprehending what's going on (SHAFT's visual style might take some getting use to, but that's true even for some hardcore anime fans), and understanding character actions and motivations. Simply put, you don't have to be an otaku in order to "get" Madoka Magica and take enjoyment from its story. Where an otaku might see "magical girl deconstruction" in this anime, a person from a more general audience might simply see a great, gripping, thrilling story that conveys interesting ideas. It's kind of like Clannad. A VN fan might have a deeper/different understanding of it than I did (when I first watched Clannad) but I still found Clannad and Clannad: After Story perfectly enjoyable and compelling back when my knowledge of VNs was virtually non-existent. Furthermore, you're basically implying that simply liking magical girl anime and/or having some familiarity with it, makes one an otaku. I disagree with that. My younger sisters were huge Sailor Moon fans growing up, but they're by no means otakus (even if I myself am one, they're certainly not). Quote:
An anime like Monster, for example, is dependent upon a level of viewer immersion into its narrative and world that a significant amount of pandering would upset. Usagi Drop is another anime like that, I would argue. Quote:
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The story of a person having an overly idealized conception of a certain "dream role" or "job", but then finding out that it's not all he or she thought it would be, is a fairly universal story. You can get that out of Madoka Magica even if you've never watched a magical girl show before. Quote:
However, I want to reiterate here what I wrote to Reckoner earlier - There's a difference between pandering to a specific audience, and trying to be entertaining in a general sense. Kamina's GAR, for example, is entertaining for much the same reason that Optimus Prime is entertaining, or that The Rock (pro wrestling) is entertaining. You sure as hell don't need to be an otaku in order to get that machismo appeal (of course, some are turned off by machismo as well, but that again has nothing to do with somebody being an otaku or not). To me, pandering to a specific group is making something entertaining in a way that only they (or those very familiar with them) will get it. Quote:
The fact is that outside of a couple scenes, Anaru's tsundere tendencies (for example) don't have much bearing on the story (in comparison to, say, Shana's tsundere tendencies, or Taiga's in Toradora). Quote:
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When something attempts to be entertaining in a generalized way, there's often a greater emphasis put on accessibility - i.e. a work having few, if any, prerequisites (i.e. "borders of entry") to understanding it or appreciating it. A work with a lot of these "borders of entry" is going to have a much harder time appealing to mass audiences. This is where having a work entirely centered around a particular subculture (which is what "otaku centric" means to me) can be limiting, in my view. Ghibli's films reach a mass audience in large part because they don't pander to a specific audience, or have many (if any) borders of entry to them. Quote:
The "Seizon Senrayku!" sequence, however, is a good example of something that's just trying to be entertaining in a general sense. I'm not saying that otaku centric necessarily equals "bad". Of course not. You can aim a work at a specific audience, and still have it be a high quality work. My main point is that I wouldn't want every anime to be otaku centric, because that would make it less likely to see any originality whatsoever rise out of the anime industry, and the lack of variety that would accompany this would become quickly tiresome for me. Ironically, I find that originality often comes when a work is aimed at a general audience, because then writers can't just rely on tropes, because tropes themselves are often self-referential in nature, requiring the viewer to be a troper to fully grasp. A good example of this is how the After Story portion of Clannad likely exists precisely because Clannad is aiming for an all-ages family-esque appeal. Quote:
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To determine the value of something, it helps to consider what things would be like if it wasn't there at all. That's why I asked you the questions that I did. Would you want nothing to be original, or different from the norm? I'm not saying that a work has to be original in order to be good, or that originality alone guarantees greatness, but if there was nothing ever original or different from the norm, things would get boring pretty fast, imo. Quote:
There's an old blog of mine that I'm going to link to because it gets into the heart of my issue with heavy amounts of pandering (or, as I called it in that blog, "pavlovian entertainment"). Here it is. Keep in mind that I wrote that prior to this fantastic year of anime. My view on the anime world as a whole is much more positive now than it was back when I wrote that. Still, what I wrote there helps to explain my issue with pandering, I think. Quote:
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I'm just saying that this one specific sequence (the "Survival Strategy" one) is just trying to be entertaining in a general sense. Quote:
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2011-08-20, 11:31 | Link #67 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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I get the impression that there is too much subjectivity regarding "pandering" for there to be meaningful debate over its intrinsic harm or value. This is evident whenever someone says so-and-so work panders to its audience, only to have a fan pop up immediately to rubbish the opinion.
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I suppose you could say I'm unreasonably biased against Anohana and therefore should not bother to review it. Even so, it doesn't make my opinion on its quality any less valid, as I could point out the various instances of the show I felt to be examples of sloppy, lazy writing. Naturally, if you loved those aspects of the series, you'd never agree with me. So what then? We can agree only to disagree; one man's meat is another man's poison, and so on. ======== With regard to originality, I have a different take on it, something I've been mulling over for a while. I recently told a member of this forum that I actually find writing an extremely painful process, a confession that surprised her because it often seems as though words flow very easily for me. If only it were so. It takes far more than a great vocabulary and a strong command of language to be an effective writer. The craft of writing can be mastered with practice, but the art of writing is another matter altogether. Writing is, to me, an extremely personal affair. An effective writer has to be able to draw upon personal experience to craft his story, and to be courageous enough to present his views on a subject, however biased, as frankly as possible. Make no mistake, a good story takes something out of its creator, exposing aspects of his character and personality — the good, bad and the ugly — for all to see. In short, an original story is an honest story. It's an expression of the writer's soul. The story in itself may be a rehash of many popular ideas, or maybe an adaptation of an older tale — after all, there's nothing new under the sun; every idea you can think of has likely appeared before, and possibly in a better form — but the insights and feelings that are the author's own, those are unique in the same way that every person is different, filled with quirks and idiosyncrasies that are his and his alone. Every story is a conversation between a reader and a writer. A good story, then, is one that offers a window into the writer's psyche. And that, to me, is where originality comes from. Ironically, such a writer would be pandering to nothing else other than his own vanity. It's got nothing to do with quality. You could write an honest tale and still have it turn out horribly mangled, for the simple lack of ability to find the words to match your intentions. That's what editors, reviewers and good friends are for: they provide the critique that helps you develop as a creator. In the meantime, deadlines have to be met and bills have to be paid. Inevitably, every creator takes shortcuts, falling back on proven techniques and formulas to submit an acceptable, if not brilliant, draft. Is it any wonder then that "originality" is rare? It's a luxury that few writers can afford. But that doesn't mean I should be any more forgiving in my criticism of their work. After all, I am my own worst critic — if I'm sometimes harsh on others, it's because I'm even harder on myself. Hence, the pain of writing, of creation. |
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2011-08-20, 12:05 | Link #69 | ||||
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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Japan doesn't seem to think seeing the same old thing is a problem, though. /rimshot
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2011-08-20, 13:05 | Link #70 | |||
Blooming on the mountain
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Deep in their roots, all flowers keep the light....
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I had assumed that the presupposition of the thread topic was referring to the term pandering in a negative sense as the default understanding - or maybe even the primary understanding. Again, I don't think targeting an audience is necessarily bad in and of itself ... the problem is when it gains a more important position in the ... err ... "hierarchy of production values", I guess might be a way to describe it? Quote:
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That being said, I feel that those who expose themselves to the efforts of others should give feedback - and ideally honest feedback. (And I use the term honest in the same sense and context as bolded above.) Perhaps to a small degree doing so could even be considered a "responsibility"? A work of art involves the creator(s) and the audience: i.e. two "parties", after all. Of course I am speaking of the ideal set of circumstances from both sides in cases like this.
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2011-08-20, 13:35 | Link #71 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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I think, as viewers, it's good to give criticism on what we like and dislike.
I really dislike the attitude that some people take, when they say to you: "What have you done? You can start criticizing when you've made an Anime (or whatever)". Now I think you can perhaps level that when you're overly harsh on an amateur effort, but not when it comes to stuff done proffessionally. That rebuttal could also be justifiable if someone overly hastily says "I could make something better then that!" |
2011-08-20, 14:56 | Link #72 | |||||||||
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Usagi Drop panders as well, just not anywhere nearly as much as our other examples. Quote:
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True enough, but we're mostly using the term as equal "to cater to a viewer's tastes". I'd prefer a less value-based term, but then we'd just be arguing semantics.
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2011-08-20, 17:44 | Link #73 | ||||
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Given TinyRedLeaf's post, I probably should clarify that I was agreeing with 0utf0xZer0's point that Mawaru Penguindrum was aiming to appeal to Revolutionary Girl Utena fans.
However, after reading what TinyRedLeaf quoted there, I can see where my answer could have been clearer. 0utf0xZer0 wrote "Do you honestly expect me to believe... etc...?" I responded "No, not at all." What I meant was "No... I do not honestly expect you to believe that." And then I attempted to clarify my position on Mawaru Penguindrum as it pertains to the discussion on this thread. That being said, TinyRedLeaf may have a point pertaining to subjectivity regarding "pandering". For example, it's become clear to me that my own standard for what constitutes "pandering" is stricter than 4Tran's. I don't think that simply having a few common archetypes in your work constitutes pandering. To me, pandering is something that can't be justified on the basis of general entertainment appeal alone. If popular character archetypes serve a narrative well, and add to its quality in a general sense, then I don't see that as pandering. For me, pandering comes into play when you're only trying to please a highly specific subsection of the audience, rather than a general audience. For example, "Easter Eggs" in superhero movies (i.e. references to the associated comic book that only knowledgeable comic book fans in the audience would get). So, if Kamina has a superb hot-blooded action scene that just about anybody into action in general could like, then that's not pandering, in my view. "Action-Adventure" is a genre that is found in almost all entertainment forms, not just anime. General audiences tend to like to see something action-packed every now and then. This is part of the reason why the Transformers movies did so well at the box office. However, if Ore no Imouto contains a bunch of VN references that would be completely lost on someone that's not familiar with VNs, then that is pandering, in my view. Not saying that's bad, of course, as this kind of pandering is essential for Ore no Imouto to live up to what its story is about. But, "pandering" may mean something different to different viewers. I'm not sure if a dictionary definition will help much either, as the ones I've found for "pandering" online seem to emphasize sexual pandering, and we're discussing "pandering" outside of that narrow range alone, of course. Quote:
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Why exactly do you think superhero comics became popular in the first place? There's obviously an element of wish fulfillment in it. Much the same is true of Magical Girl anime, I'm sure. Also, you can't tell me that Mami wasn't made to look very cool in the first episode of Madoka Magica. Madoka and Sayaka also seemed pretty enthused at the idea of being Puella Magis, at least during the first two episodes. Quote:
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2011-08-20, 18:12 | Link #74 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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If we're talking about western comics, I'd say the most obvious form of pandering there is the emphasis on continuity. When their continuity gets completely knotted and out of control they do something like "Infinite Crisis" to resolve it all, but the fact is only the most hardcore fans would have any awareness of all these continuity issues, so it's direct pandering to them.
A more sensible approach would be to just ignore the continuity knots, or just handwaive them (or not do so many crossovers that you end out creating so many...) |
2011-08-22, 18:22 | Link #77 | |||
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It goes out of its way to show more cutesy/cute scenes. It's not necessarily a bad thing, mind you.
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2011-08-22, 18:57 | Link #78 | ||||
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Because it helps to distinguish between entertainment elements that could conceivably appeal to anybody, and entertainment elements that are only going to appeal to a much more specific audience.
When people talk about a show that's "pandering", they usually mean it in a specific context involving a specific group of viewers. They don't mean something that's aiming for a mainstream entertainment appeal. In any event, I find your (and Don's) approach to what pandering means to be overly broad and hence unwieldy. It blurs the line between pandering and non-pandering, imo. Quote:
So I disagree with you on what constitutes "pandering". Quote:
So there you go, an anime show can be aimed at adult males without being otaku centric. Quote:
However, if someone reviewing an anime simply says "the writing is poor" or "the direction is poor", that tells us precious little in and of itself. Ideally, the reviewer will cite specific elements of the story that demonstrates bad writing. This will greater enable the reader of the review to take something of real value from it. In some cases, the specific weak elements referenced by the review may be misplaced pandering. So it's entirely fair and reasonable for an anime reviewer to point out where an anime has pandering in it that had a harmful effect on the anime (at least in the reviewer's point of view). Quote:
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2011-08-22, 19:02 | Link #79 |
Blooming on the mountain
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Deep in their roots, all flowers keep the light....
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For the sake of clarity btw (and correct me if I am wrong?) ... 4tran seems to often (but not always) use the word "pandering" to mean a catering/emulation/imitation in of itself without a "value judgement" associated with it, whereas many of the other posters have a default understanding of the word carrying a negative evaluation with it. That's why he can say that Usagi Drop "going out of its way to show cutesy scenes" is both pandering and not necessarily a bad thing.
He's not necessarily trying to "stir the pot" but is rather consistently using a somewhat different definition than many of the other posters have as a default.
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2011-08-22, 19:08 | Link #80 | |
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I'm not saying that pandering is always bad (i.e. has a negative "value judgement" associated with it). I'm saying that its something more precise than simply trying to be entertaining in a general sense. "Pandering" isn't done to a general audience. It's done to a very specific audience.
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critic, meta |
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