AnimeSuki Forums

Raiza Sunozaki · 2010-07-30, 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack

Yes, but saying the Red only tells the truth! is partly wrong, then. I've seen a way around this: If you look at each sentence individually, of course problems will arise. You have to treat each Red Text jumble as a giant group. Thus Please come home! and Kihihihihihi! make sense in context.

As for the EP4 problem, I propose this:

There are two kinds of Red Truth in Umineko: those which tell a fact, and those which are gameboard parameters. The Facts cannot be false in any way. These are not constructed by the Game Master but are fundamental truths and cannot be mistaken. No one can repeat these if they are false.

The problem with this is that we have no way of separating the two kinds of red text. And more often than not, even if it's your second kind of red text, it's also a Fact. No one could've killed Kanon because everyone was either dead, playing dead or under reliable supervision. And Rosa had all the master keys because Battler saw all of them under her control. It's true they might be Parameter Reds, but it doesn't change the fact that they are Fact.
And besides, a Logic Error doesn't arise two red contradict each other. If you tried that, you'd probably just choke on the second. A Logic Error arises when you can't provide a reasonable explanation on how something shown or said was done by magic can be done using human capabilities.

k//eternal · 2010-07-30, 11:46

Well, it's clear that the red only has to apply to the game it refers to, and that there are common elements between games. If you want to divide them up, that's one way to look at it, just that they aren't intrinsically different--it's a consequence of the way the game is set up.

If you're playing chess, you could say statements like "the queen is worth 9 points" or "your queen has been captured" and (provided the latter is true) they're both facts, although one is a rule of the game.

Although under the theory I posted that gold text can't be disproved using any means on the board, gold text would always refer to the rules of the game and not its current setup.

UsagiTenpura · 2010-07-30, 11:48

I was thinking of the followings...
Arc 5 heavily went into the idea that Beatrice is not the culprit, arc 6 seems to push that idea even further. In arc 4 Beato claims that Battler's sin is not between Battler and Beato. She claims because of his sin one person dies, and later everyone dies. She also claims his sin is not related to his close family.

Putting these things together it feels like Battler's sin is related to the real culprit who isn't Beato.

Tho taking things into context again, the only time Beato ever said in red that she killed anyone is Battler in arc 4's end which seems to suggest that that explosion is no accident and is for some reason or another the will of Beato herself.

So it sorta suggest that culprit starts killing and Beato makes everything blows up as some sort of yet unexplained consequence.

chronotrig · 2010-07-30, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

I think this whole Shkanon(trice) thing - assuming it's true - comes down to what you expect from a detective novel. R07 seems to be the type of person who believes that, as long as there are hints, any answer like brain parasites or fictional DID can work. There are other people who expect a more simple, conservative answer that makes the mastermind look like a complete genius after having pulled an almost perfect crime.

No one's suggesting that DID has anything to do with the answer. And if Shkanon was the culprit, hypothetically, she would have to be a near genius to pull it off, even moreso than any other character on the game board.

UsagiTenpura · 2010-07-30, 12:16

Just thought of an interesting fact.
While all furniture seems to reject having an interest in the gold or solving the epitaph, Kanon was convinced by Kinzo to try to solve it. He's the only servant whom we've been told tried to solved it, and he did so from a "this is an order" perspective if we believe what we're shown.

Of course we're not shown that he actually did try to solve it, but if he did solve it it makes sense that it wouldn't be shown.

ErenselTheJester · 2010-07-30, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kylon99

You know... I keep thinking that maybe Beatrice-1967 was just like Van Dine. She was isolated in a mansion with no outside contact with the world just like Van Dine. So maybe she took to reading a whole bunch of murder mysteries and eventually began writing them herself? And so that's where these hints of Beatrice being a great mystery writer comes from?

The other thing about the fantasy scenes: the idea that Genji is a 'vessel' for Ronove is a magical one. If the episodes were written, then it's probably something closer to Ronove being the character that someone chose to represent Genji. It's possible they were written in this way, maybe by Beatrice-1967.

And this gets around the idea of Gaapjo being Nanjo in a very revealing dress. 8) People have speculated that Gaap could be Nanjo's daughter; maybe Nanjo's daughter was written into the story AS Gaap? EDIT: Sorry, that was his grand-daughter... heh. Not likely to have been known by Beatrice-1967.

If you look at it this way, it may make sense that some initial stories were written by Beatrice-1967 featuring Ronove, Virgilia. And that's *exactly* how they looked to her back then. Then this 'series' carried on to modern day by someone else, like a successor (like Shannon) and updated to incorporate the more modern characters of the family.

That's a nice idea, but I'm thinking more like Beatrice's friends and allies were people who knew her back in her human years.

Like Virgilia is Beatice's former master, it would make sense if in reality she was a source of education for Beatrice. Ronove would've been a fellow servant along with the seven stakes who were probably seven other servants who were either as they appear or older. Bern and Lambda are probably some friends of Beatrice, as in Takano and The Furude family probably had connections to the Ushiromiya family.

This is just an idea, but its actually quite fun to think about.

musouka · 2010-07-30, 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Who would want to kill everyone including the whole family? Even supposing that the real culprit survived, he'd still kill himself from a social standpoint.

I think that killing everyone was not in the original plan. Otherwise why have the thing with the letters in Beatrice's handwriting that should have been delivered after the explosion? They were addressed to actual people that had been on the island, not anyone who would be surviving them, right? The letter was addressed to Rudolf, not Ange, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Then let's say that the culprit is Shannon which wanted to kill everyone because of her unrequited love (or loves). Yet again you don't have anyone to punish. It would be the story of a crazy girl who decided to resolve her disastrous romance life in the worst possible way.

This leaves way too many plot threads.

- Why bring Kuwadorian and the second Beatrice up? "Sayo" has her own backstory that doesn't seem to tie in to either of those aspects. And the second Beatrice HAS to be important, because there's absolutely no point to her being there otherwise. If all you need is an abandoned house secluded somewhere on the island, all you need is to have the original Beatrice dead and Kuwadorian abandoned in the loss of its first mistress.

Actually, sorry for the tangent, but I'm going to go into this a little more.

Kinzo attempting to recreate Beatrice is a pretty steady plot point. We know for sure he did it at least once. (Episode 5 implies that he tried it again, with Natsuhi's adopted baby.) The weird thing is, what made him stop? He didn't particularly seem upset over the death of the child entrusted to Natsuhi. He just laughed and said something about escaping the cage of flesh again. But when we see him shortly before his death, he's wailing for Beatrice to come back. If the guy is nuts enough to believe he's transporting the soul of his dead mistress into other people's bodies, what's stopping him from doing it again before he dies?

If Sayo is the host and she somehow managed to exorcise Beatrice from her body, I don't get why Kinzo isn't bugging her more about it. We don't see him treat her in any special way. Whereas Battler in EP6--who is obviously supposed to mirror Kinzo, right down to the "theme music"--absolutely flips whenever he sees Moeto because she's "Beatrice" but she doesn't act correctly.

Even Beatrice v2.0. When we see Kinzo talking to her, he keeps on trying to convince her that she's Beatrice. But he never pays any special attention to Shannon or Kanon. No wild accusations of "hiding" Beatrice from him. No insistence that they "remember" something. Nothing that would ping me as Kinzo recognizing they have a connection to Beatrice--which is odd when he's So. Fucking. Obsessed. with seeing her "one last time".

Let me put it this way. Even if you accept that Kinzo sees Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice as completely separate beings, he would still have to recognize that they're "related". And if the woman he's in love with suddenly vanishes, of course he's going to be bugging her "brother" and "sister" as to where the hell she is.

rogerpepitone · 2010-07-30, 13:24

I mentioned this a few days ago, but nobody noticed:

There are a few points where Beatrice's heart is mentioned:
- Beatrice says she will reveal her heart to defeat Evatrice in Episode 3
- Beatrice mentions her heart when she's posing the final riddle in Episode 4
- Lambdadelta mentions Beatrice's heart wrt. escaping the logic error in Episode 6.
(I'm fairly sure there were some other places, but I can't remember any offhand.)
I think each of these corresponds to one of the rules X, Y, Z.

So one of the rules corresponds to Shkannon and another corresponds to the bomb. I'm not sure if either of those can explain Nanjo's murder (maybe the extended Shkannon rule could).

The Shkannon rule might be something more general about how a person can have different sides to themselves (that is, in the sense of an actor who's playing multiple roles than DID). It's certainly been mentioned all over the place: Maria assuming the identity of a witch to extend her experience and Hideyoshi's fake accent in Episode 1; George's behavior at the aquarium and Jessie-sama in Episode 2; Evatrice and Jessica's possible DID in Episode 3; Eva's behavior being different off-island in Episode 4.

(The Episode 3 Jessica is particularly important. Battler suggests that another personality of Jessica killed Nanjo; Evatrice's response was not along the lines of "Actions by one personality count as being performed by any personality.", but one specific to the case of Jessica against Eva. I consider that acknowledgment that multiple personalities for a single body can be considered distinct to the red text.)

Also, the bomb was apparently set to go off at Oct 5 at 11:59 PM. Without the typhoon, most of the family would have left before it went off. Maybe Manon or Renon was paid to set the bomb before leaving the island.

Jan-Poo · 2010-07-30, 13:36

Quote:

I think that killing everyone was not in the original plan. Otherwise why have the thing with the letters in Beatrice's handwriting that should have been delivered after the explosion? They were addressed to actual people that had been on the island, not anyone who would be surviving them, right? The letter was addressed to Rudolf, not Ange, for example.

The way those letters were sent makes it so the "sender" is actually the intended receiver. Beatrice was clearly aiming to make the letters return to the "sender" after they traveled to the four corners of japan.
I'm even more sure that this is the way Beatrice intended it to be by the fact there seem to be a letter for each "sender" and not a letter for each "receiver". In fact Ange has found a single letter with her name as the sender, but there is no letter addressed to Battler and no letter addressed to Kyrie. If they existed Ange would have received them too, at the very least Battler's letter would, since he has no other relative alive.

Kylon99 · 2010-07-30, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

That's a nice idea, but I'm thinking more like Beatrice's friends and allies were people who knew her back in her human years.

Like Virgilia is Beatice's former master, it would make sense if in reality she was a source of education for Beatrice. Ronove would've been a fellow servant along with the seven stakes who were probably seven other servants who were either as they appear or older. Bern and Lambda are probably some friends of Beatrice, as in Takano and The Furude family probably had connections to the Ushiromiya family.

Well except we have scenes and hints that show us that Virgilia IS Kumasawa and Genji IS Ronove. Nothing for Gaap and Nanjo yet.. phew. 8)

Like EP3 where Virgilia 'awakened' of Kumasawa, or the clue that Genji was created by Kinzo with the help of Ronove. Also, Ronoue <-> Ronove.

And finally the answers in EP6 where Battler just sees them as Kumasawa and Genji. But then when Kumasawa took Moetrice to Featherine's library, she turned into Virgilia.

Anyways, even if it's not Beatrice-1967, there are enough clues that someone (or perhaps some line of people) is picking up stories from family members and friends and injecting them into the story. Siesta Sisters <-> Rabbits figures for example...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I mentioned this a few days ago, but nobody noticed:

There are a few points where Beatrice's heart is mentioned:
- Beatrice says she will reveal her heart to defeat Evatrice in Episode 3
- Beatrice mentions her heart when she's posing the final riddle in Episode 4
- Lambdadelta mentions Beatrice's heart wrt. escaping the logic error in Episode 6.
(I'm fairly sure there were some other places, but I can't remember any offhand.)
I think each of these corresponds to one of the rules X, Y, Z.

Yes, we figured that the bomb was the Heart of Beatrice since Bernkastel mentioned that this 'Rule X' was the heart of Beatrice. How it is like in 'the other game' where everything was wiped out and so the mystery remained hidden until the end.

Also from how Eva-Beatrice appeared to be attacking but could not destroy Beatrice's heart.

ErenselTheJester · 2010-07-30, 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I mentioned this a few days ago, but nobody noticed:

There are a few points where Beatrice's heart is mentioned:
- Beatrice says she will reveal her heart to defeat Evatrice in Episode 3
- Beatrice mentions her heart when she's posing the final riddle in Episode 4
- Lambdadelta mentions Beatrice's heart wrt. escaping the logic error in Episode 6.
(I'm fairly sure there were some other places, but I can't remember any offhand.)
I think each of these corresponds to one of the rules X, Y, Z.

So one of the rules corresponds to Shkannon and another corresponds to the bomb. I'm not sure if either of those can explain Nanjo's murder (maybe the extended Shkannon rule could).

The Shkannon rule might be something more general about how a person can have different sides to themselves (that is, in the sense of an actor who's playing multiple roles than DID). It's certainly been mentioned all over the place: Maria assuming the identity of a witch to extend her experience and Hideyoshi's fake accent in Episode 1; George's behavior at the aquarium and Jessie-sama in Episode 2; Evatrice and Jessica's possible DID in Episode 3; Eva's behavior being different off-island in Episode 4.

(The Episode 3 Jessica is particularly important. Battler suggests that another personality of Jessica killed Nanjo; Evatrice's response was not along the lines of "Actions by one personality count as being performed by any personality.", but one specific to the case of Jessica against Eva. I consider that acknowledgment that multiple personalities for a single body can be considered distinct to the red text.)

Also, the bomb was apparently set to go off at Oct 5 at 11:59 PM. Without the typhoon, most of the family would have left before it went off. Maybe Manon or Renon was paid to set the bomb before leaving the island.

The Rules aren't events, they are more like the essence of the game board which is centered around Beatrice. You see, unlike Higuarashi which focused on the events of the game, Umineko focuses on the essence of the game and what it is composed of. You remember the lines, don't you?

"... The Core of the Witch Beatrice."

"... the existence of the Witch Beatrice."

So the rules apply directly to Beatrice. However, I do have a vague idea for these rules. Like for Rule X, this deals with something that Bernkastel personally went through, and the reason why she can't win this game. Even though she has gone through this trial before, there are still obstacles that prevents her from winning this game. Rule Y is something that we've already been introduced to and is the reason why Beatrice is Beatrice for she wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for this reason. Rule Z is what makes Beatrice a witch, its what gives her power as an alchemist and entitles her as the Golden Witch. Alchemy is the understanding, deconstructing, and reconstructing of matter. Its magic and science, a combination of both. I have an idea on what it is, too. But again, I'm not sure on it.

Kylon99 · 2010-07-30, 16:03

So this is supposedly the back cover of Umineko EP7:

http://ameblo.jp/naruse-t/image-1060...666792286.html

Nothing we haven't really seen before... except that phrase... oh and obviously, spoilers for EP7. 8)

Judoh · 2010-07-30, 16:07

So I guess I'm going to put together my George culprit theory now. I'm not going to spend my time on the how for the murders because getting around the red and explaining things away is pretty easy (and something Battler says in game 5 [1] gives me an excuse to not worry about it) So I'm going to focus on hints that make him capable of being the culprit as a narrative and a person instead. So rather than a theory to get around the red think of this as a character analysis.

The first part is George's interest in the occult/magic.

Spoiler for space:

From the start we find out that George is a show off [2] (this is a flaw of his and it acts as a huge hint for the flashy way the murders are presented) and he likes to smooth things over when conversations are getting bad. In particular the conversations about Magic and personalities are one of the things he smooths things over with in the first two games [3]. From this we start to see more of George's intellectual ability and his tendency to steer conversation (and his understanding of personalities for you shkanon guys). It's George who suggests there might be a charm (scorpion charm) to protect Battler and Jessica from the witch [4]. It's George and Shannon who nod their head to every answer Maria gives about magic [5]. It's George who suggests in the prologue in game 2 before Shannon can say it, that him and Shannon's meeting each other was caused by magic and goes further to say that 'magic's power lies in the power of feeling'[6]. He implies he has own sources in the chapel when he impresses Battler with some knowledge about some magic circle and doesn't admit Maria told him [7], and he describes occult resurrection in great detail in his narration in game 3. [8] So from this we can guess that George at least has knowledge of the occult that is fairly above a basic level. He's also always the first person to notice Maria pull out the letter at Dinner and in the chapel (after she asks him if Dinner's over by the way) [9] and is the first to notice the gold bars on the table in game 2 also [10]. Knowing some episode 7 knowledge it also seems to be implied that he led the cousins to the guesthouse with knowledge that Shannon's shift would change to be there or that Shannon/Genji changed it to make the proposal happen without interruption. (this shift change is also hinted at in later episodes as well like episode 3).[34] Add in Maria's rose and it's as if George is setting up every mystery in the first few games even mentioning how the letters are about collecting interest. If he's not behind all of this than he must be almost as bad as Nanjo at keeping secrets. In the later games it seems that some things get in the way though preventing the letters from being delivered. To go beyond this George has something in common with Maria [11] and Ange [12] in that he was bullied as a kid just like the both of them [13] and both of them started their occult hobbies from that experience. This explains why there is that huge backstory for Maria and Ange in game 4. If I'm right this serves as an important hint that we need to figure out George is the culprit. George also seems to prefer fantasies over mysteries (game 1 tea party) [14] and (game 6)[15]. So I can imagine him trying to make Battler think this is a fantasy on the gameboard level. All in all George knows things he shouldn't if he wasn't involved and he has characteristics of characters that have shown some importance in the story and I think that is suspicious in and of itself.

The second is George is the only person explicitly shown to be capable of Familicide.

Spoiler for space:

The only people I'd be sure he couldn't kill are Hideyoshi and his Fiance, Shannon. I'm not just talking about the Headship test in game 3 [16] where he outright says he can kill them all. George is calm and collected he's good at smoothing things over and directing conversation to the point where you might forget you were even talking about something uncomfortable just a minute ago. In certain scenes he's shown to be manipulative and says in his narration that he likes to bully Shannon that exposes that nature (though in a loving way) [17] . It wouldn't be unusual for him to be able to manipulate people into being an accomplice in murder in cases where he can't do it by himself in fact he's the only family member specifically shown to be ordering the servants for selfish reasons.[18] The only thing almost anyone else orders them for is delivering tea and doing chores. So it's possible for him to take advantage of rank and a furniture complex to gather accomplices if he doesn't have to bribe them. Here's an example of were he might by signaling an accomplice.[33] They don't even really need an order to follow him as long as they believe it is his will [19].(this kind of influence is also thought of as a possibility in Higurashi in Shion's TIPS about the Sonozaki conspiracy) In game 1 Eva implies something along the lines of “that if 19th person does not exist that means someone is manipulating people to murder (most specifically the servants) and George, ironically fits the bill in her theory about the culprit.[20] In this scene he's called a new master of the servants [21] Even more than that he thinks like a king using Hideyoshi's stories from the Sengoku era and Eva's monarch like attitude to create his own philosophy on life.[22] At the same time he's shown to be possessive of Shannon [23][32]. As noted by Oliver the metaphor used in reference to George's wedding ring that it's meant to say “this woman is mine” is very similar to the description to Erika's specially made ring for Battler in game 6 [24]. It's also emphasized in that same episode that George has no interest in becoming the family head [25]. So I can rule that out as a motive, honestly though I don't think it would've made sense as a motive for murder in the long run anyway. He wants to create his own business empire, and his own family [26] with the way he talks I don't think he has any attachments to this family right now I don't think he'd have a huge problem getting rid of them, but I don't know about what Shannon would think. It's said that he's well on his way in the business world, he's very prepared and I've suggested it's possible he had someone he knew like Okonogi [27] to pull some strings and fill the safety deposit boxes with illegal/yakuza money. Like Genji, maybe Okonogi owes him some kind of debt or maybe George promised him financial backing in the future. It could explain the 'world peace' thing in the game 6 tea party. Furthermore George was prepared enough to know that the Typhoon was coming and change his schedule, and this level of preparedness is necessary to set up a serial murder scheme like this [28] not only that I'd say it suggests he has some sort of big business responsibilities since he's prepared to go back on monday. The TIPS describe him as “an Affable young man who is loved by everyone in the family”[29]. It'd be totally unexpected for a “nice guy” like him to be a mass murderer.

Third he has tons of motive.

Spoiler for space:

So these are my 31 pieces of evidence suggesting the George is the culprit

NEW EVIDENCE APPEARS.

According to a reliable, source, GEORGE STEALS CANDY FROM KIDS! [32]

Oliver · 2010-07-30, 16:19

Very nicely put, Judoh.

Minor eureka moment: A Jessitrice has the perfect motive to cover for the culprit if she thinks Shannon(trice) is the culprit while George actually is.

chronotrig · 2010-07-30, 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kylon99

So this is supposedly the back cover of Umineko EP7:

http://ameblo.jp/naruse-t/image-1060...666792286.html

Nothing we haven't really seen before... except that phrase... oh and obviously, spoilers for EP7. 8)

Yep, that's official. Can someone with better eyes than me read the text on the screenshots? It's all new.

DgBarca · 2010-07-30, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kylon99

So this is supposedly the back cover of Umineko EP7:

http://ameblo.jp/naruse-t/image-1060...666792286.html

Nothing we haven't really seen before... except that phrase... oh and obviously, spoilers for EP7. 8)

Oh wow ! The background behind the unknow girl is red, that means that she will be a piece in the chessboard and not meta-world-only...And...Am I seeing...KINZO ? Whoa...Kinzo again...

Judoh · 2010-07-30, 16:56

With the meta world stuff in the background it looks like the Guy in blue is definitely a meta world character....

If he's not Van Dine I'm betting he's the 45th demon Vine.

Quote:

The Forty-fifth Spirit is Vine, or Vinea. He is a Great King, and an Earl; and appeareth in the Form of a Lion,20 riding upon a Black Horse, and bearing a Viper in his hand. His Office is to discover Things Hidden, Witches, Wizards, and Things Present, Past, and to Come. He, at the command of the Exorcist will build Towers, overthrow Great Stone Walls, and make the Waters rough with Storms. He governeth 36 Legions of Spirits. And his Seal is this, which wear thou, as aforesaid, etc.

B.kun · 2010-07-30, 16:58

I'm not sure, but this is what I make out from the screenshots. From left to right

Spoiler for EP7 BC:

Raiza Sunozaki · 2010-07-30, 17:01

Wow Judoh... wow. Even if someone doesn't agree with you on George being the culprit, anyone's got to give you credit for all this work, marking your evidence and organizing it very well.
It's also excellent support for the George Culprit Theory. I love it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kylon99

So this is supposedly the back cover of Umineko EP7:

http://ameblo.jp/naruse-t/image-1060...666792286.html

Nothing we haven't really seen before... except that phrase... oh and obviously, spoilers for EP7. 8)

Damn it, that clever bastard. He doesn't show much text on the back of the cover does he? I can barely read Kanji, so I don't know what it says, but the only katakana in any of the screenshots is "beatori~che," so we still don't have names for the two new characters.
I'm just going by Ryuukishi's tradition and expecting the two new characters, which are almost certainly meta-characters, to have western names written in katakana. If someone who can read the text finds something that indicates otherwise, that would be cool though.

Raiza Sunozaki · 2010-07-30, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

With the meta world stuff in the background it looks like the Guy in blue is definitely a meta world character....

If he's not Van Dine I'm betting he's the 45th demon Vine.

Or maybe Ryuukishi will be clever and shorten the name down.
After all, Van Dine.

2010-07-30, 13:24	Link #14868
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	I mentioned this a few days ago, but nobody noticed: There are a few points where Beatrice's heart is mentioned: - Beatrice says she will reveal her heart to defeat Evatrice in Episode 3 - Beatrice mentions her heart when she's posing the final riddle in Episode 4 - Lambdadelta mentions Beatrice's heart wrt. escaping the logic error in Episode 6. (I'm fairly sure there were some other places, but I can't remember any offhand.) I think each of these corresponds to one of the rules X, Y, Z. So one of the rules corresponds to Shkannon and another corresponds to the bomb. I'm not sure if either of those can explain Nanjo's murder (maybe the extended Shkannon rule could). The Shkannon rule might be something more general about how a person can have different sides to themselves (that is, in the sense of an actor who's playing multiple roles than DID). It's certainly been mentioned all over the place: Maria assuming the identity of a witch to extend her experience and Hideyoshi's fake accent in Episode 1; George's behavior at the aquarium and Jessie-sama in Episode 2; Evatrice and Jessica's possible DID in Episode 3; Eva's behavior being different off-island in Episode 4. (The Episode 3 Jessica is particularly important. Battler suggests that another personality of Jessica killed Nanjo; Evatrice's response was not along the lines of "Actions by one personality count as being performed by any personality.", but one specific to the case of Jessica against Eva. I consider that acknowledgment that multiple personalities for a single body can be considered distinct to the red text.) Also, the bomb was apparently set to go off at Oct 5 at 11:59 PM. Without the typhoon, most of the family would have left before it went off. Maybe Manon or Renon was paid to set the bomb before leaving the island. __________________ Umineko notes: Various (1-4) Ep 3 (w/ red text) Ep 4 (w/ red text) . My projects: Higurashi Daybreak - in need of translator Higurashi DS Translation - in need of translator Never7: The End of Infinity - Finished! I/O: In progress 12Riven: In progress

2010-07-30, 16:07	Link #14873
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	Judoh's George culprit analysis So I guess I'm going to put together my George culprit theory now. I'm not going to spend my time on the how for the murders because getting around the red and explaining things away is pretty easy (and something Battler says in game 5 [1] gives me an excuse to not worry about it) So I'm going to focus on hints that make him capable of being the culprit as a narrative and a person instead. So rather than a theory to get around the red think of this as a character analysis. The first part is George's interest in the occult/magic. Spoiler for space: From the start we find out that George is a show off [2] (this is a flaw of his and it acts as a huge hint for the flashy way the murders are presented) and he likes to smooth things over when conversations are getting bad. In particular the conversations about Magic and personalities are one of the things he smooths things over with in the first two games [3]. From this we start to see more of George's intellectual ability and his tendency to steer conversation (and his understanding of personalities for you shkanon guys). It's George who suggests there might be a charm (scorpion charm) to protect Battler and Jessica from the witch [4]. It's George and Shannon who nod their head to every answer Maria gives about magic [5]. It's George who suggests in the prologue in game 2 before Shannon can say it, that him and Shannon's meeting each other was caused by magic and goes further to say that 'magic's power lies in the power of feeling'[6]. He implies he has own sources in the chapel when he impresses Battler with some knowledge about some magic circle and doesn't admit Maria told him [7], and he describes occult resurrection in great detail in his narration in game 3. [8] So from this we can guess that George at least has knowledge of the occult that is fairly above a basic level. He's also always the first person to notice Maria pull out the letter at Dinner and in the chapel (after she asks him if Dinner's over by the way) [9] and is the first to notice the gold bars on the table in game 2 also [10]. Knowing some episode 7 knowledge it also seems to be implied that he led the cousins to the guesthouse with knowledge that Shannon's shift would change to be there or that Shannon/Genji changed it to make the proposal happen without interruption. (this shift change is also hinted at in later episodes as well like episode 3).[34] Add in Maria's rose and it's as if George is setting up every mystery in the first few games even mentioning how the letters are about collecting interest. If he's not behind all of this than he must be almost as bad as Nanjo at keeping secrets. In the later games it seems that some things get in the way though preventing the letters from being delivered. To go beyond this George has something in common with Maria [11] and Ange [12] in that he was bullied as a kid just like the both of them [13] and both of them started their occult hobbies from that experience. This explains why there is that huge backstory for Maria and Ange in game 4. If I'm right this serves as an important hint that we need to figure out George is the culprit. George also seems to prefer fantasies over mysteries (game 1 tea party) [14] and (game 6)[15]. So I can imagine him trying to make Battler think this is a fantasy on the gameboard level. All in all George knows things he shouldn't if he wasn't involved and he has characteristics of characters that have shown some importance in the story and I think that is suspicious in and of itself. The second is George is the only person explicitly shown to be capable of Familicide. Spoiler for space: The only people I'd be sure he couldn't kill are Hideyoshi and his Fiance, Shannon. I'm not just talking about the Headship test in game 3 [16] where he outright says he can kill them all. George is calm and collected he's good at smoothing things over and directing conversation to the point where you might forget you were even talking about something uncomfortable just a minute ago. In certain scenes he's shown to be manipulative and says in his narration that he likes to bully Shannon that exposes that nature (though in a loving way) [17] . It wouldn't be unusual for him to be able to manipulate people into being an accomplice in murder in cases where he can't do it by himself in fact he's the only family member specifically shown to be ordering the servants for selfish reasons.[18] The only thing almost anyone else orders them for is delivering tea and doing chores. So it's possible for him to take advantage of rank and a furniture complex to gather accomplices if he doesn't have to bribe them. Here's an example of were he might by signaling an accomplice.[33] They don't even really need an order to follow him as long as they believe it is his will [19].(this kind of influence is also thought of as a possibility in Higurashi in Shion's TIPS about the Sonozaki conspiracy) In game 1 Eva implies something along the lines of “that if 19th person does not exist that means someone is manipulating people to murder (most specifically the servants) and George, ironically fits the bill in her theory about the culprit.[20] In this scene he's called a new master of the servants [21] Even more than that he thinks like a king using Hideyoshi's stories from the Sengoku era and Eva's monarch like attitude to create his own philosophy on life.[22] At the same time he's shown to be possessive of Shannon [23][32]. As noted by Oliver the metaphor used in reference to George's wedding ring that it's meant to say “this woman is mine” is very similar to the description to Erika's specially made ring for Battler in game 6 [24]. It's also emphasized in that same episode that George has no interest in becoming the family head [25]. So I can rule that out as a motive, honestly though I don't think it would've made sense as a motive for murder in the long run anyway. He wants to create his own business empire, and his own family [26] with the way he talks I don't think he has any attachments to this family right now I don't think he'd have a huge problem getting rid of them, but I don't know about what Shannon would think. It's said that he's well on his way in the business world, he's very prepared and I've suggested it's possible he had someone he knew like Okonogi [27] to pull some strings and fill the safety deposit boxes with illegal/yakuza money. Like Genji, maybe Okonogi owes him some kind of debt or maybe George promised him financial backing in the future. It could explain the 'world peace' thing in the game 6 tea party. Furthermore George was prepared enough to know that the Typhoon was coming and change his schedule, and this level of preparedness is necessary to set up a serial murder scheme like this [28] not only that I'd say it suggests he has some sort of big business responsibilities since he's prepared to go back on monday. The TIPS describe him as “an Affable young man who is loved by everyone in the family”[29]. It'd be totally unexpected for a “nice guy” like him to be a mass murderer. Third he has tons of motive. Spoiler for space: He's been jealous of Battler since he was young. He revealed in Episode 6 that he hated women before he found love through Shannon. And Battler left him alone with 3 women for 6 years. He could be completely bitter towards him because of that. [30] We're made to beleive he's bitter in episode 7. Since he he's shown to have knowledge of Battler and Shannon's meeting in Ep6, and that he hate Shannon for a little while. The "leaving the nest" and "coming out of his shell" metaphors sounded like veiled attempts at breaking Shannon/Yasu's hopes. How he mentions it being perfect that Battler not come back and his letter saying that exact same thing is also included. As shown above he has certain occult beliefs or at least a basic understanding of them that's enough to manipulate certain people and has a certain ability to direct groups. He seems to like to protect Maria in certain instances If Battler's sin was against Shannon, Jessica, or Maria I could imagine that being carried over to George and if they forgot as well. I also take this conversation about self satisfaction between Ange in Amakusa in game 4 as a hint for George and Shannon as it seems to connect to George's goal of him and Shannon being accepted [31] The conversation is here. I also think it has relevance to Battler's sin since it seems to mirror Beatrice's goal of being acknowledged in a round about way, but instead as a person and not a witch. So these are my 31 pieces of evidence suggesting the George is the culprit NEW EVIDENCE APPEARS. According to a reliable, source, GEORGE STEALS CANDY FROM KIDS! [32] __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:" Last edited by Judoh; 2012-06-15 at 09:52.

2010-07-30, 16:58	Link #14878
B.kun Member Join Date: Jul 2009	Ep7 bc I'm not sure, but this is what I make out from the screenshots. From left to right Spoiler for EP7 BC: 1 「島く、ん……ッ！」「に、……逃げ………、ご 2 「くすくすくす……。ぐらかすのは構わない ……犯人は、だよ 3 「……戦人は無能で、私を何度もイラつかせた 4 「　　　　でございます。私は女とし　　　　　のベアトリーチェさまの心　　　　と思ってまいりました。そし　　　　人間が○○ました。今こそ、　　　　、お話すべき時かと存じま 5 「あのが。……あれから何十年を経ようとも。……**れることはない・・・・・。」

2010-07-30, 11:46	Link #14862
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	Well, it's clear that the red only has to apply to the game it refers to, and that there are common elements between games. If you want to divide them up, that's one way to look at it, just that they aren't intrinsically different--it's a consequence of the way the game is set up. If you're playing chess, you could say statements like "the queen is worth 9 points" or "your queen has been captured" and (provided the latter is true) they're both facts, although one is a rule of the game. Although under the theory I posted that gold text can't be disproved using any means on the board, gold text would always refer to the rules of the game and not its current setup.

2010-07-30, 11:48	Link #14863
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	I was thinking of the followings... Arc 5 heavily went into the idea that Beatrice is not the culprit, arc 6 seems to push that idea even further. In arc 4 Beato claims that Battler's sin is not between Battler and Beato. She claims because of his sin one person dies, and later everyone dies. She also claims his sin is not related to his close family. Putting these things together it feels like Battler's sin is related to the real culprit who isn't Beato. Tho taking things into context again, the only time Beato ever said in red that she killed anyone is Battler in arc 4's end which seems to suggest that that explosion is no accident and is for some reason or another the will of Beato herself. So it sorta suggest that culprit starts killing and Beato makes everything blows up as some sort of yet unexplained consequence.

2010-07-30, 12:16	Link #14865
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	Just thought of an interesting fact. While all furniture seems to reject having an interest in the gold or solving the epitaph, Kanon was convinced by Kinzo to try to solve it. He's the only servant whom we've been told tried to solved it, and he did so from a "this is an order" perspective if we believe what we're shown. Of course we're not shown that he actually did try to solve it, but if he did solve it it makes sense that it wouldn't be shown.

2010-07-30, 16:03	Link #14872
Kylon99 Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space	So this is supposedly the back cover of Umineko EP7: http://ameblo.jp/naruse-t/image-1060...666792286.html Nothing we haven't really seen before... except that phrase... oh and obviously, spoilers for EP7. 8)