[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 460 Discussion

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Spoiler for ...Um yeah, what do you call this?!?!:

[CENTER]

" How much do you know about your family? You don't know anything about your family...YET"

Isshin?
Ichigo: "Well I know that my father is a man who raised me from birth and has done everything to support and protect me and my sisters... even to this day he still loves my beloved mother faithfully years after she passed away. And although he did keep his shinigami nature a secret from me, it's not much of a problem considering I did the same to him; why I even told him I understand and that he can tell me when he's ready. He was there for me when i needed him most to give me the power I needed to save my whole town."

Urahara?
Ichigo: "Well he is a bit of secretive jerk in how he does things, always leaving out a few details and letting us find out the hard way, but in the end most of what he's done worked out for the best. Sure he made some mistakes like how he used rukia, but he did have good intentions for what he did; and what man hasn't made mistakes. Without him I would have never awakened my own powers and never had a chance to save rukia. Without him the war with Aizen might have gone badly and we might have not beaten him in the end. Not to mention my good friends the vizard's owe him their lives. As far as I recall I don't feel like I have any reason to think he has any kind of ulterior motive at this point."

Ichigo: "So ya while there are some things i don't know about their past, I think I can say that they have done much to earn my trust. A LOT more than I can ever recall you ever doing considering we just met and it feels like you've been stalking me. I mean what makes you think that you know something about my friends and family that I don't know? How do I know you aren't just lying to me or trying to mess with my head?"

Spoiler:

"Go to Urahara's place, you might see something interesting"

"Why is Karin here with Urahara-san.?

"I see you're worried. Of course you are with your sister visiting a shifty guy like that"

He's not shifty! Urahara-san...
"..."helped us" is that what you were going to say? Just what do you know exactly? What makes you think that you understand Urahara?"

And again... the entire basis for ichigo being suspicious about something going on here is Ginjo saying "You don't know anything about urahara"... Ginjo doesn't even give ichigo a real REASON for him to be suspisous of him. When it comes down to it, the amount of help that Urahara has given Ichigo and everyone else IS a valid reason to give him some level of trust and not think there is something shifty going on

And all throughout this he doesn't do the simple thing of asking Karin why she went to urahara's place. Even IF ichigo was dumb enough to be so suspicious of Urahara that he could not risk talking to him, he could atleast talk to his little sister. And we know that karin's visit was completely innocent, and Ichigo would know too if he had even a shred of common sense. Y'know instead of letting a complete stranger turn him against a friend without giving him a real reason to be suspicious.

Spoiler:

"I forgot. So much has happened I tried to erase it from my mind. Should I chase him now and make him talk? .. NO. What if he's really my enemy, then what will I do? What can I do, the way I am right now? It's no good..I need HURRY and get my powers back"

*Runs off to join the Fullbringers*

Now you see this... this all took place AFTER ichigo decided to not try talking to his father and urahara and joined the fullbringers. So as I said before, this has absolutely no bearing on Ichigo's choice to not trust his friends and loved ones and to instead joined a bunch of strangers

Sometime after ichigo went though that thing with karin and urahara, Ishida was attacked... THAT is when ichigo felt he needed power most and chose to run to the fullbringers instead of his dad or urahara... And the above segment you posted, the only thing that would make ichigo even remotely suspicious of his father came AFTER he made his choice. In other words, even if you can argue him being dumb enough not to ask urahara for help with his lost powers he did not get a valid reason to not try and find isshin first before going with a bunch of strangers.

I mean hell, Ginjo's ENTIRE argument for ichigo not being able to trust his father and urahara is bascially on the premsis that he knows nothing about them... but when it comes down to it he knows even LESS about Ginjo... If he's not even willing to approach his father or urahara based such a poor argument, then he should be avoiding Ginjo like the plague.

However he did turn Ichigo into a hybrid without his knowledge. He gave him a power that has the potential to be self destructive without his knowledge and consent.

Maybe i forget but where was it confirmed that Urahara KNEW that Ichigo was going to turn into a vizard during the process that awakened his shimigami powers?
As far as i saw, him turning into a vizard was an accident that came about because Ichigo got WAY to close to becoming a hollow before he pulled through. As far as we've seen from urahara;'s knoweldge creating a vizard requires the Hōgyoku he created; that IS the item he used to create the original vizards afteralll.

Seriously why wouldn't he trust the only person willing to tell him what's going on

Ginjo? Ginjo isn't really telling him anything. He gave Ichigo this vague idea that Urahara and Isshin might be up to something but never actually told him what it was or offered and solid proof that there was something suspicious going on. The best he could do was a meeting between Urahara and Karin, but even a small amount of investigating would have found that it was an innocent visit. And he got nothing on his dad before he chose to join them (only afterward was he given something to suspect... and even that was weak)

He did the same with the Vizards. He didn't go to Urahara, he went to them instead... I don't see Ichigo's logic as flimsy at all, given the circumstances

Careful now, best not add to the list of plot holes while defending kubo

[Kafriel]

I am not angry... ...why would you think that?

I'm merely exasperated

Exasperated it is, then...

Sure he apologized but that doesn't negate the fact that Urahara has used Ichigo & Rukia like pawn.

Point is, however, that Ichigo doesn't mind about that. Ch.182 page 10, quoting Ichigo:

It's okay, I never said I was pissed or anything. It's not like you did something bad, and regardless of what you're thinking...you helped us get stronger and get to SS. We're grateful for your help!

You say he helped him save Rukia...but you forget that it was Urahara's fault she was in danger in the first place. Urahara had a hidden agenda....sure he wanted to help Rukia but his main objective was to stop Aizen, by any means necessary.

Now I'm gonna get mean, but Urahara didn't know Aizen at the time...their past was introduced in the next arc. Shouldn't look at the SS arc in hindsight, it can get very confusing.

I mean hell, Ginjo's ENTIRE argument for ichigo not being able to trust his father and urahara is bascially on the premsis that he knows nothing about them... but when it comes down to it he knows even LESS about Ginjo... If he's not even willing to approach his father or urahara based such a poor argument, then he should be avoiding Ginjo like the plague.

QFT...Ichigo's on good terms with his family, back in FKT, Ichigo told Isshin to talk about it whenever he feels like it, he even said that the latter probably had his reasons, and that's only on Isshin's past, not the present matters at hand. So, why can't he ask Karin about her meeting with Urahara, did their relationship status change somewhere between these chapters? Methinks we're lacking some family drama, if that's the case...otherwise, Ichigo's got no excuse for keeping a distance from his family.

[Haak]

Judging from LoPs angry exasperated rant, I'm guessing he didn't bother to look up the term "guilt by association". Shame

[Edijs]

I read this chapter it was awesome i hope Zangetsu will be back and that hallow too

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

no...
First the event you are talking about came AFTER ichigo decided to become a fullbringer; so it had no bearing on his choice to trust complete strangers instead of approaching his loved ones and friends for help first. Hell its not even clear they knew it was ichigo in particular who was following them; Isshin seemed to suspect they were being followed but not that he knew who it was.

The argument that "they would have kept it hidden from him anyway" bears no weight. First you don't know they would have kept hiding it if they were confronted; especially if ichigo explained in detail his plight and desperation. Second, it does not excuse ichigo for not trying to approach them. If ichigo approached them and they rejected him, then i would not blame Ichigo's own idiocy for everything that happened, but instead isshin and urahara for being stupid enough to keep this secret from him when he made it clear he NEEDED that answer from them; its not like it was important to keep it a secret.

The point was that what Urahara and Isshin were doing was supposed to be secret, both to Ichigo and the readers. I "know" that Isshin and Urahara wouldn't reveal info to Ichigo for plot reasons because that would've wrecked the secret. Kubo could've wasted chapters on Ichigo playing sleuth and trying to investigate what they're doing, but all the result would be the same. Urahara is someone who can stay one step ahead of Aizen, you really think Ichigo's going to get anything out of Urahara he doesn't want him knowing? Do you think Ichigo having a heart-to-heart with his dad is going to get Isshin to spill every secret he has?

The fact is, Isshin, Urahara and the shinigami were obviously aware of what's been going on the entire time. About Ginjou, Tsukishima...everything. They could've let Ichigo in on what they knew any time. But they didn't. Ichigo turned to Ginjo and Xcution. Chad was friends with them, so he good basis for him to take a chance in trusting them right there. And Ginjo was at least offering help, answers and making efforts to earn trust. Urahara and Isshin were avoiding Ichigo and acting suspicious. So yeah, while Kubo may not have been dotting his i's and crossing his t's by not showing Ichigo investigate, wouldn't call it "idiocy"on Ichigo's part. It spared us a fruitless effort of him trying to investigate.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

QFT...Ichigo's on good terms with his family, back in FKT, Ichigo told Isshin to talk about it whenever he feels like it, he even said that the latter probably had his reasons, and that's only on Isshin's past, not the present matters at hand. So, why can't he ask Karin about her meeting with Urahara, did their relationship status change somewhere between these chapters? Methinks we're lacking some family drama, if that's the case...otherwise, Ichigo's got no excuse for keeping a distance from his family.

Ichigo's not the type to pry for secrets. Back when he first went to the vizards to control his hollow, he states the reason he didn't go to Urahara first is because he assumed that if Urahara knew anything he would've come to him. Turns out Urahara knew plenty and as usual didn't tell Ichigo anything. That's the way it is. Karin also doesn't like talking to her family about spiritual stuff as she prefers to remain grounded in "reality".

Originally Posted by Edijs

I read this chapter it was awesome i hope Zangetsu will be back and that hallow too

Yes. Old man and hollow Ichigo, no bishie hybrid Zangetsu.

[Alchemist007]

Well I was going to say a bunch of psychoanalytical jumbo but that would be a derailing of the most extreme sort. But I will say that if you want anyone to take you to any degree of seriousness, you shouldn't be trying to discredit the same things over and over (especially by association). And overuse of emoticons or otherwise makes it a distracting read and look very immature (and hard to take serious). And I seriously don't understand the constant use of this, if you have something to say, then bloody say it or bloody don't!

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The point was that what Urahara and Isshin were doing was supposed to be secret, both to Ichigo and the readers. I "know" that Isshin and Urahara wouldn't reveal info to Ichigo for plot reasons because that would've wrecked the secret. Kubo could've wasted chapters on Ichigo playing sleuth and trying to investigate what they're doing, but all the result would be the same. Urahara is someone who can stay one step ahead of Aizen, you really think Ichigo's going to get anything out of Urahara he doesn't want him knowing? Do you think Ichigo having a heart-to-heart with his dad is going to get Isshin to spill every secret he has?

The fact is, Isshin, Urahara and the shinigami were obviously aware of what's been going on the entire time. About Ginjou, Tsukishima...everything. They could've let Ichigo in on what they knew any time. But they didn't. Ichigo turned to Ginjo and Xcution. Chad was friends with them, so he good basis for him to take a chance in trusting them right there. And Ginjo was at least offering help, answers and making efforts to earn trust. Urahara and Isshin were avoiding Ichigo and acting suspicious. So yeah, while Kubo may not have been dotting his i's and crossing his t's by not showing Ichigo investigate, wouldn't call it "idiocy"on Ichigo's part. It spared us a fruitless effort of him trying to investigate.



Ichigo's not the type to pry for secrets. Back when he first went to the vizards to control his hollow, he states the reason he didn't go to Urahara first is because he assumed that if Urahara knew anything he would've come to him. Turns out Urahara knew plenty and as usual didn't tell Ichigo anything. That's the way it is. Karin also doesn't like talking to her family about spiritual stuff as she prefers to remain grounded in "reality".

CLAP CLAP CLAP

Oh god thank you! You put much better than I did. Your cool pts are over 9000

Because they all have given him a reason not to trust them. So it's not inconceivable that he would trust someone he didn't know. It's the same thing he did before with the Vaizards. Like you said, and I said before ...Urahara knew everything and never told him anything and in the end he went to someone other than the Vizards and I for one am glad that Kubo didn't waste time showing Ichigo sleuthing...because he established enough reasons for Ichigo to turn to the Fullbringers instead of Urahara and Isshin.

Also Ichigo never said he didn't trust Urahara, he merely stated that even if he was an enemy, he couldn't do anything because he was powerless. Ginjou was the only one who offered him a chance to recover his lost powers. It's not surprising that he would jump on that, given the circumstances

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Yes. Old man and hollow Ichigo, no bishie hybrid Zangetsu.

Santen Kesshun WA TASHIWA REJECT!!!

I say the bishie stays, and we get rid of the old man!!!!


But more than likely Zangetsu will look different from all his other forms since Ichigo's powers have evolved. So I don't expect Zangetsu to look anything like he did in the past...I don't think his hollow side will be separate from his Shinigami side because he's no longer fragmented

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Well I was going to say a bunch of psychoanalytical jumbo but that would be a derailing of the most extreme sort. But I will say that if you want anyone to take you to any degree of seriousness, you shouldn't be trying to discredit the same things over and over (especially by association). And overuse of emoticons or otherwise makes it a distracting read and look very immature (and hard to take serious). And I seriously don't understand the constant use of this, if you have something to say, then bloody say it or bloody don't!

What the hell?

I use strikes for the same reason anyone else uses them, does. I don't have a problem telling it to you straight.
Insults like this will just roll right off of me ..in fact I am going to ignore them totally from now. I don't name-call any of you...yes I may express dislike for the Kubo bashing but I don't just insult you guys. I should be given the same respect. In my opinion ...You're the one who is being immature. If you have a rebuttal then post it. Otherwise don't say anything. The time you took to insult me could have been used to post something with actual substance

You don't have to take me seriously, since I don't take you seriously either. Because you never seriously reply. You merely use any opportunity to call me immature. This is the second time you have done so and I will have you know that my opinion of you isn't that flattering either...in future you can ignore me like I intend to ignore you...until you post something of substance instead of random juvenile insults.

I LIKE EMOTICONS I don't care if you don't like them...I DO.

(Yes I did use a strike just for the hell of it )

[Chiisai Kuma]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Spoiler for My earlier reply, from deleted post:

Thank you....
GOD BLESS YOU or whatever deity you put your faith in... *moved to tears*



True GJ was able to tank a Getsuga Tensho--if you're talking about that first time. Even if you weren't talking about that first time. All the times he faced Grimjow, Zangetsu was fragmented because Ichigo couldn't accept Zangetsu's Hollow side. So he wasn't fully able to use his powers.

That practice swing is reminiscent of the Ichigo's sword destroying the hill that Aizen thought he destroyed. After he trained in the Dagai and became a "Transcendental". Once again he has transcended a Shinigami due to his Fullbring combining with his Shinigami powers. So again I don't think that you can use him

I actually got the impression that Ginjou is pretty strong but I have no proof of that. I just think that Fullbringers might be a match for the Captains. Ichigo is in a class by himself so he doesn't count

I think the power levels in Bleach make sense if you think about it. It's when people compare to power levels in other series, they get confusing... but that's just me I guess *shrugs*

okay I said I wasn't gonna get into the " Kubo is bad/great writer" debate today but AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! !! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!! @&%$#!!!!!
You are seriously BRINGING ME DOWN!!!

Spoiler for ...Um yeah, what do you call this?!?!:

" How much do you know about your family? You don't know anything about your family...YET"





"Go to Urahara's place, you might see something interesting"

"Why is Karin here with Urahara-san.?

"I see you're worried. Of course you are with your sister visiting a shifty guy like that"

He's not shifty! Urahara-san...
"..."helped us" is that what you were going to say? Just what do you know exactly? What makes you think that you understand Urahara?"


"I forgot. So much has happened I tried to erase it from my mind. Should I chase him now and make him talk? .. NO. What if he's really my enemy, then what will I do? What can I do, the way I am right now? It's no good..I need HURRY and get my powers back"

*Runs off to join the Fullbringers*

It's all there in Black and White.
Which means... KUBO DID EXACTLY THAT
This post is a perfect example of what drives me crazy, makes me foam at the mouth, and the reason I harbor the desire to maim you Kubo bashers. You bash him for the things you say he "should have done" . When it's really your faulty memories, that is to blame and not Kubo's so-called bad writing.

Because Kubo did establish that Ichigo had a reason to not trust Urahara, and even his own father. He did establish that Ichigo acted out of desperation when he went to the Fullbringers. BECAUSE Ginjou was also doing a head job on him, by making him distrust Urahara and Isshin so Ichigo wouldn't have any choice to but to rely on him



Why do the fans always have to "nit-pick" when it comes to Kubo and Bleach?!?! Will he ever get credit for the things that he did do?

You're not the only one either....I saw several people lodging the same complaints..Which is exasperates the hell out of me . .. since your complaints AREN'T VALID ONES.


I could see if it was a justifiable complaint BUT THEY'RE NOT...so it really seems like you're just trying to find something to bitch about because you like doing it and truth be damned...

Which makes me want to choke a few of you till your tongue hangs out of your mouth --AH AH AHH...Remember that choking is out of love

So you can't take it seriously

i love you so much right now. :3

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

I use strikes for the same reason anyone else uses them, does. I don't have a problem telling it to you straight.

I hardly see anyone use them for the most part. But it appears you use them to say something under your breath (which you do or don't want us to read? It's just confusing).

Insults like this will just roll right off of me ..in fact I am going to ignore them totally from now. I don't name-call any of you...yes I may express dislike for the Kubo bashing but I don't just insult you guys. I should be given the same respect. In my opinion ...You're the one who is being immature. If you have a rebuttal then post it. Otherwise don't say anything. The time you took to insult me could have been used to post something with actual substance

You don't have to take me seriously, since I don't take you seriously either. Because you never seriously reply. You merely use any opportunity to call me immature. This is the second time you have done so and I will have you know that my opinion of you isn't that flattering either...in future you can ignore me like I intend to ignore you...until you post something of substance instead of random juvenile insults.

Actually, I wasn't trying to be insulting at all. I'm just telling you how you're coming off, to me anyways. I can't speak for everyone in that regard. If it was the word "bloody" that got to you, don't pay any mind, I just like to sound British occasionally.

It's good to know what you think of me though, I don't take any insult to it; it's hard to feel offended with that many Inuyasha faces in the same post. But for the record, I post seriously most of the time. I just like to make my point and stop typing, for the sake of conciseness and readability.

And you must be joking if you don't think this is immature, even as a joke:

Which makes me want to choke a few of you till your tongue hangs out of your mouth

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The point was that what Urahara and Isshin were doing was supposed to be secret, both to Ichigo and the readers. I "know" that Isshin and Urahara wouldn't reveal info to Ichigo for plot reasons because that would've wrecked the secret. Kubo could've wasted chapters on Ichigo playing sleuth and trying to investigate what they're doing, but all the result would be the same. Urahara is someone who can stay one step ahead of Aizen, you really think Ichigo's going to get anything out of Urahara he doesn't want him knowing? Do you think Ichigo having a heart-to-heart with his dad is going to get Isshin to spill every secret he has?

in other words, the characters acted like idiots because the plot demanded it. Instead of writing a well written story, Kubo had to really on characters doing stupid things because otherwise he would not have a story... he needed the secret to be kept secret and thus allowed characters to make poor choices to maintain that secret... that's just plain bad writing

Would a heart-to-heart with his father get him to spill? well yes it should. especially if it is desperate for ichigo to know. Do you think it's in character for isshin to keep a secret from ichigo when keeping said secret ichigo would put ichigo under unnecessary desperation and endanger him by risking allowing him to make terrible decisions?

And Hell, Ichigo has already said he understands why loved ones might keep secrets from eachother(He kept his powers a secret from his friends and family for months) so he should not be so willing to distrust friends and family for merely keeping secrets.

The fact is, Isshin, Urahara and the shinigami were obviously aware of what's been going on the entire time. About Ginjou, Tsukishima...everything. They could've let Ichigo in on what they knew any time. But they didn't. Ichigo turned to Ginjo and Xcution. Chad was friends with them, so he good basis for him to take a chance in trusting them right there. And Ginjo was at least offering help, answers and making efforts to earn trust. Urahara and Isshin were avoiding Ichigo and acting suspicious. So yeah, while Kubo may not have been dotting his i's and crossing his t's by not showing Ichigo investigate, wouldn't call it "idiocy"on Ichigo's part. It spared us a fruitless effort of him trying to investigate.

We are not sure how much isshin and Urahara knew of the fullbringers and for how long. But if they DID know then its even MORE terrible writing. They basically allowed ichigo to fall into the hands of the enemy and allowed friends and families to become victims for no good reason. There is not a single good reason to keep that secret from him.

Furtharmore, as i said the scene where we see Urahara and Isshin avoiding Ichigo and keeping secrets came AFTER Ichigo made the choice to join the fullbringers. Before that all we saw was Urahara hanging in his shop and Isshin was out of the house... not exactly comes off as "avoiding ichigo and keeping secrets from him"

As for Ginjo, he was offering help, but it was never detailed before... not once during their training did Ginjo ever explain how fullbringing was supposed to get ichigo his powers back; and there was other holes in their fullbring stroy like never explaining exactly why they didn't like have powers despite them enjoying them. But really all of ginjo's efforts to earn trust is contrasted with urahara and isshin... between them, Ginjo is the LEAST trsutworthy since urahar and isshin did MANY things to earn ichigo's trust and the benefit of the doubt while Ginjo has done nothing.

Ichigo's not the type to pry for secrets.

Ya apparantly not... he would much rather jump to the conclusion that those secrets are evidence of possible EVIL INTENT!

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Also Ichigo never said he didn't trust Urahara, he merely stated that even if he was an enemy, he couldn't do anything because he was powerless.

Ya saying that someone "could be an enemy" is a way of saying "I don't trust them"
I mean really... you can't say you trust someone and yet also suspect thaem of possibly being your enemy. Afterall, enemies by their nature are untrustworthy

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

<tons of icons>

That post reminded me of someone that used to post here...believe her name was OD.

[Alchemist007]

Some degree of predictability with the plot can be good. Like the fact that we knew there was a battle coming with Aizen and the Espada only hyped it up. With this being a new plot and all, it makes sense that we don't know everything yet (like how we didn't know that Aizen was the real bad guy until a lot later...till then Kubo planned for it to be Gin). I suppose this plot is substandard for some fans though. I wish/hope it's going to lead to an arc about the zero squad or the King's Realm...we'll see though.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

[SIZE="6"]

Santen Kesshun WA TASHIWA REJECT!!!

I say the bishie stays, and we get rid of the old man!!!!

But more than likely Zangetsu will look different from all his other forms since Ichigo's powers have evolved. So I don't expect Zangetsu to look anything like he did in the past...I don't think his hollow side will be separate from his Shinigami side because he's no longer fragmented

Old man Zangetsu was cool. Hollow Ichigo was even more awesome. Tensa Zangetsu was basically just Byakuya with a cool jacket. But I'm sure he's fangirl bait. But a new Zangetsu would be interesting too. BTW, thanks for the compliments

Originally Posted by Slayerx

in other words, the characters acted like idiots because the plot demanded it. Instead of writing a well written story, Kubo had to really on characters doing stupid things because otherwise he would not have a story... he needed the secret to be kept secret and thus allowed characters to make poor choices to maintain that secret... that's just plain bad writing

It's not as simple as that. Sometimes it's inevitable to plot that fans be willing to make leaps of faith and not nit-pick details. It's like asking why Batman allows Joker to live when he kills innocent dozens of people each time he goes on a crime spree. The official answer is Batman has a code against killing. But then you can say:

"ok, but why not cripple the f*cker then, mess him up so bad that he's paralyzed or he's vegetable? He's not dead then is he?!".

People just roll their eyes at you then, because the answer is obvious: then there would be no more Joker stories. Most writers never bother to come up with some convoluted logic why Batman doesn't snap Joker's spine. You just know that he doesn't.

Furtharmore, as i said the scene where we see Urahara and Isshin avoiding Ichigo and keeping secrets came AFTER Ichigo made the choice to join the fullbringers. Before that all we saw was Urahara hanging in his shop and Isshin was out of the house... not exactly comes off as "avoiding ichigo and keeping secrets from him"

The "when" doesn't concern me here. It's clear by that point Urahara and Isshin had begun their planning. And yes, it's fairly obvious that those plans were meant to be hidden from Ichigo, based on Urahara's "taking away your son's future" comment. If you're asking why Ichigo never asked anything, before Isshin disappeared. He didn't have particular need to. His life was back to normal.

Would a heart-to-heart with his father get him to spill? well yes it should. especially if it is desperate for ichigo to know. Do you think it's in character for isshin to keep a secret from ichigo when keeping said secret ichigo would put ichigo under unnecessary desperation and endanger him by risking allowing him to make terrible decisions?

Your argument seems to be that Isshin and Urahara never tell simply because Ichigo never asks which is frankly sillier than them actually keeping secrets. If it's that important, they would tell Ichigo, whether he asked or not. Otherwise, we have to assume they have good reason not to. As for Isshin allowing Ichigo to be put under unnecessary danger: remember when Isshin first revealed to be a shinigami? Put a check beside his course of action

A) Tell his son about his powers, lend him his aid and offer him valuable advice/warnings about Aizen and the arrancar

B) Allow Ichigo to rush into Hueco Mundo, half-trained with no idea of what he'd find or what enemies to expect, while he chatted with Ryukken about good parenting?

If you checked B, then you've been paying attention to the story. Furthermore, Isshin revealed that he's known about Ichigo's adventures since day one. Meaning he could've spoken up at any time. Isshin loves Ichigo and eventually he did come to his son's aid just as he is now...at the most opportune and desperate time. But neither he or Urahara have ever had any problems letting Ichigo get into dangerous situations ill-informed. They have faith he'll find his own way.
That's why this whole Ichigo shoulda asked/Isshin & Urahara shoulda spoken up thing is a bit perplexing. The characters have never behaved this way, so it's odd to scoff at it if you've followed the story until now, this just a part of reading Bleach.

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

That post reminded me of someone that used to post here...believe her name was OD.

Yeah, Bleach OD. Takes me back...

[rei_ayanami17]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

in other words, the characters acted like idiots because the plot demanded it. Instead of writing a well written story, Kubo had to really on characters doing stupid things because otherwise he would not have a story... he needed the secret to be kept secret and thus allowed characters to make poor choices to maintain that secret... that's just plain bad writing

Would a heart-to-heart with his father get him to spill? well yes it should. especially if it is desperate for ichigo to know. Do you think it's in character for isshin to keep a secret from ichigo when keeping said secret ichigo would put ichigo under unnecessary desperation and endanger him by risking allowing him to make terrible decisions?

And Hell, Ichigo has already said he understands why loved ones might keep secrets from eachother(He kept his powers a secret from his friends and family for months) so he should not be so willing to distrust friends and family for merely keeping secrets.



We are not sure how much isshin and Urahara knew of the fullbringers and for how long. But if they DID know then its even MORE terrible writing. They basically allowed ichigo to fall into the hands of the enemy and allowed friends and families to become victims for no good reason. There is not a single good reason to keep that secret from him.

Furtharmore, as i said the scene where we see Urahara and Isshin avoiding Ichigo and keeping secrets came AFTER Ichigo made the choice to join the fullbringers. Before that all we saw was Urahara hanging in his shop and Isshin was out of the house... not exactly comes off as "avoiding ichigo and keeping secrets from him"

As for Ginjo, he was offering help, but it was never detailed before... not once during their training did Ginjo ever explain how fullbringing was supposed to get ichigo his powers back; and there was other holes in their fullbring stroy like never explaining exactly why they didn't like have powers despite them enjoying them. But really all of ginjo's efforts to earn trust is contrasted with urahara and isshin... between them, Ginjo is the LEAST trsutworthy since urahar and isshin did MANY things to earn ichigo's trust and the benefit of the doubt while Ginjo has done nothing.

no....please, don't call Ichigo "idiot" anymore because of what he have done....

i said i will leave this kind of debate but sorry for changing my mind ><...
actually, chapter 459 and 460 cleared everything about this issue...

Sir Slayerx, a simple way to settle this one is to accept the fact of Ichigo's mistrusting Uruhara and Isshin as a BIG MISTAKE. No one is perfect, even Ichigo as a character commit mistake.

If you still think that this whole arc seem to be pointless, then think again.
Kubo naturally create a twist for this arc as we all supposed to know that this will lead and dedicated to regain his shinigami power. If Kubo don't come up with this, then we'll complain :"darn it! so this is so easy to regain that power blah blah blah" whatsoever. So he needs to brought out antagonist and come up with the Fullbringers as a medium for meeting that plan.

now, If then Ichigo avoid fullbringers and Ginjou, do you think it can change a damn thing? - - - of course not! Ginjou with Tsukishima will still keep on hunting him, as their main goal is his fullbring and leaving himself as a powerless as he was back then will just give a way to hurt all those he loved ones. There is this stranger who's offering him the chance to regain his power, then why not grab the risk?

that's why now, I didn't consider Ichigo's trusting Ginjou and the fullbringers as a mistake.

ok, back to what i said about Ichigo's mistrusting Uruhara and Isshin as a BIG MISTAKE, What good comes with that great mistake is 1. acceptance: the proper way of returning his shinigami power - - - though his denying himself back then, he learns to admit it and proudly ask for it that he wants that power to protect his loved ones 2. he learns a lesson: despair "show them, how you have come through much worse despair!", ---that's why we'll able to see this chapter about his improved GT. How powerful it was? we'll just yet to know......

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

It's not as simple as that. Sometimes it's inevitable to plot that fans be willing to make leaps of faith and not nit-pick details. It's like asking why Batman allows Joker to live when he kills innocent dozens of people each time he goes on a crime spree. The official answer is Batman has a code against killing. But then you can say:

"ok, but why not cripple the f*cker then, mess him up so bad that he's paralyzed or he's vegetable? He's not dead then is he?!".

People just roll their eyes at you then, because the answer is obvious: then there would be no more Joker stories. Most writers never bother to come up with some convoluted logic why Batman doesn't snap Joker's spine. You just know that he doesn't.

Actually, Batman: Under the Red Hood addresses this issue brilliantly. We get inside batman's head and really understand exactly why he would not do something like that. Hell Redhood himself in a way represents what might happen if batman were to drop his moral codes. There's also batman beyond which showed us how the police would react to batman going over the line and the negative repercussions it would have for him. Justice League also gave us an episode about superman and what happens when he crosses the line. Yes in many cases things need to happen because the plot demands it, but a great writer will take the time to make sure to write the story in such a way that we believe that was the most natural direction for the story to take. He doesn't expect us to to remain willfully ignorant to what would come natural to these situation and just except it

This is where we come back to Kubo and Bleach. Kubo needed ichigo to remain in the dark and come to trust strangers; that's the direction of the plot. But he gives us half-ass reasoning as to why ichigo would go down that path. I mean he creates this idea of mistrust between ichigo and those close to him even though they had done enough to earn the benefit of the doubt based on so very little. Employing just a little bit common sense is all it would have taken for ichigo to avoid such massive mistakes. And the same may apply to Isshin and Urahara themselves; not talking to ichigo and willfully allowing him to put himself in danger for pretty much no reason than the plot demanded they stay out of the way.

When it comes to the issue of mistrusting urahara... what if we got a meeting with someone like one of Aizen's former minions (if they were not all dead)... now THAT would be suspicious enough to worth putting some doubts into ichigo's mind; allow him to loose trust in someone who did plenty to earn it. Instead the best we got was a meting with karin and Urahara (that ichigo could have easily found out was actually an innocent meeting by just talking to one of them), and one secret meeting with urahara and Isshin. Really, considering ichigo's OWN history of keeping secrets from loved ones, that isn't believable enough to build mistrust around for people that have done enough to earn his trust

Your argument seems to be that Isshin and Urahara never tell simply because Ichigo never asks which is frankly sillier than them actually keeping secrets. If it's that important, they would tell Ichigo, whether he asked or not. Otherwise, we have to assume they have good reason not to. As for Isshin allowing Ichigo to be put under unnecessary danger: remember when Isshin first revealed to be a shinigami? Put a check beside his course of action

A) Tell his son about his powers, lend him his aid and offer him valuable advice/warnings about Aizen and the arrancar

B) Allow Ichigo to rush into Hueco Mundo, half-trained with no idea of what he'd find or what enemies to expect, while he chatted with Ryukken about good parenting?

If you checked B, then you've been paying attention to the story. Furthermore, Isshin revealed that he's known about Ichigo's adventures since day one. Meaning he could've spoken up at any time. Isshin loves Ichigo and eventually he did come to his son's aid just as he is now...at the most opportune and desperate time. But neither he or Urahara have ever had any problems letting Ichigo get into dangerous situations ill-informed. They have faith he'll find his own way.
That's why this whole Ichigo shoulda asked/Isshin & Urahara shoulda spoken up thing is a bit perplexing. The characters have never behaved this way, so it's odd to scoff at it if you've followed the story until now, this just a part of reading Bleach.

Careful now, like I said to LoP before; lets not bring up even MORE of Kubo's plot holes. These walls of multi quote rants are big enough as it is

Originally Posted by rei_ayanami17

Sir Slayerx, a simple way to settle this one is to accept the fact of Ichigo's mistrusting Uruhara and Isshin as a BIG MISTAKE. No one is perfect, even Ichigo as a character commit mistake.

The ultimate problem is I find it to be an terribly unbelievable mistake. Mistrusting those who have earned your trust based on so very little reasoning... taking the words of a complete stranger over the past you share with your loved ones.

There is this stranger who's offering him the chance to regain his power, then why not grab the risk?

First, urahara and isshin are more trustworthy than a complete stranger and ichigo's should know its possible that they might have theories about regaining his powers; being more trustworthy and knowledgeable they should be the FIRST people ichigo goes to. Second, Ichigo has friends in very high places that could help him without him needing to be on the frontlines himself. Third and most importantly, Ginjo is a stranger; for all Ichigo knew he was walking into a trap and falling into the hands of an enemy and becoming a pawn in their plot... oh wait... Its Not worth the risk when there were alternatives worth exploring first

[Jarmel]

This has actually not been a bad arc. Can't wait for a Ichigo vs. everyone else fight where he just owns them all.

Just when he's about to get cut, he's going to pull an Aizen where the blade can't even penetrate him.

I wonder if this arc is somehow going to end up with him on the run.

[Alchemist007]

That's what I wanted but I think it's much too late for that now.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium;3737860Why do the fans always have to "nit-pick" when it comes to Kubo and Bleach?!?! Will he ever get credit for the things that [I

he did do[/I]?

You're not the only one either....I saw several people lodging the same complaints..Which is exasperates the hell out of me . .. since your complaints AREN'T VALID ONES.

I could see if it was a justifiable complaint BUT THEY'RE NOT...so it really seems like you're just trying to find something to bitch about because you like doing it and truth be damned...

Which makes me want to choke a few of you till your tongue hangs out of your mouth --AH AH AHH...Remember that choking is out of love

So you can't take it seriously

feel better? first off, i'm not a kubo hater and in case you don't know, there was a point in time when i thought he was brilliant too. but the last few years just didn't do it for me and i'm not the only one who feels that way.

to you my complaints are not justifiable but to me they are. there's a reason we discuss these things in this forum, and contrary to what you think, i don't complain just for kicks! i give due credit to kubo when he deserves it. no offense but you don't have the right to say that i just bash him because i feel like it.

well, i can't really speak for everyone but i've been reading bleach for a long time. it's not the only manga i read though. i read quite a few series on a regular basis and i see the differences in writing between kubo and his peers. my problem with kubo's writing is that there isn't enough foreshadowing. he would just come up with something to explain some mystery and expect his readers to believe it even though it leaves you thinking that he pulled it out of thin air. maybe to you it makes sense, but for some it doesn't. it doesn't make their confusion and complaint any less important.

i would answer the points you made but slayerx already did that for me. i just happened to agree with his opinion, there's nothing wrong with agreeing to an opinion, is there? if you don't agree with it then say so and state your reasons. that's why forums like these exist. don't just lash out like that. alright? now that's that. we're getting off-topic.

[kiak666]

New spoiler is out:

Spoiler for Ginjo...:

Looks like Kubo just pulled a Shinobu Sensui on us...

[Mizugetsu]

Well i've read the new one and it's alittle bit surprising