Remembering Tiananmen, 20 years on

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Well.. what I meant was buffoonery invites disrespect.

They don't really care about respect. They know that those who just post dissident posts on the net are small fry who can't do anything against them. All the government actually needs to do is to send a subtle warning to prevent any physical execution of protests.

Mass censoring can be effective if done properly. In this case, China is done quite close to a good job in doing so.

[Shadow Kira01]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Well.. what I meant was buffoonery invites disrespect.

Actually, China's tactics are pretty much that they preferred to be feared rather than respected. After all, they do have quite some mighty economy power and an average military power supported by their huge number of soldiers or volunteers; aside from that, they also have the veto power in the United Nations. China always does things in the light...

Its almost like they do bad things intentionally and get away with it while nobody else can say a word as that it is ineffective, why waste energy? Same goes to the issue of North Korea, by the way. Its been nearly two weeks and there is still disagreement on the issue.

As for the Tiananmen Square, it is their domestic issue after all. Foreign nations would rather not interfere with it, even though China's hands are very bloody but helping those victims of their tyranny will not benefit anybody but rather bring misfortunes and unpleasant consequences as that some nations may end up with the "enemy+1" stat while everyone else won't make much of a difference as that words don't reach them. Sanctions won't work as that China is quite an economic partner of multiple nations meaning sanctions interfere with national interest. Military operations are out of the question as that nobody is stupid enough to risk their own fellow countrymen for the sake of enemy nations. In fact, if action were to taken, there may be high possibility that the saved when feel any grateful but instead make claims of foreign invasion as that it had occurred in other places of the world.

Regardless of all this, why does China always have extra rights when it comes to interfering other nations' internal issues. China had complained that lawmakers in Japan visited a shrine to pay respects to the dead as that it serves as glorifying the military nature of the Imperial Army back during WWII. China complained against the British government for inviting the Dalai Lama over out of honor yet they claimed that the guy is a terrorist. China complained about Canada not visiting their nation enough of times to build ties over the economy, bringing out the issues of the head-taxes and calling it off as racism. China complained against the United States over their war on Iraq as that it was oil stealing and massacre. In the end, whenever people complain about North Korea and their human rights' issue, they always counter with the "mind your own business" or "keep a calm approach to the issue" attitude which makes them the biggest hypocrite in the entire world, am I not correct?

[LeoXiao]

Regardless of all this, why does China always have extra rights when it comes to interfering other nations' internal issues.

So does the USA for some reason.

[Vexx]

Regardless of all this, why does China always have extra rights when it comes to interfering other nations' internal issues. China had complained that lawmakers in Japan visited a shrine to pay respects to the dead as that it serves as glorifying the military nature of the Imperial Army back during WWII. China complained against the British government for inviting the Dalai Lama over out of honor yet they claimed that the guy is a terrorist. China complained about Canada not visiting their nation enough of times to build ties over the economy, bringing out the issues of the head-taxes and calling it off as racism. China complained against the United States over their war on Iraq as that it was oil stealing and massacre. In the end, whenever people complain about North Korea and their human rights' issue, they always counter with the "mind your own business" or "keep a calm approach to the issue" attitude which makes them the biggest hypocrite in the entire world, am I not correct?

You are correct and I've always thought it fascinating that not a single one of the politicians in those countries retorted, "Why are you interfering in the internal affairs of our country?" (and then smile). Works both ways....
But really, I don't have a problem with countries glaring at each other or wagging their fingers at each other over the way they run internal affairs --- it encourages all governments to behave a bit less like jackasses... particularly when it affects the flow of commerce.

[Shadow Kira01]

Originally Posted by Vexx

You are correct and I've always thought it fascinating that not a single one of the politicians in those countries retorted, "Why are you interfering in the internal affairs of our country?" (and then smile). Works both ways....
But really, I don't have a problem with countries glaring at each other or wagging their fingers at each other over the way they run internal affairs --- it encourages all governments to behave a bit less like jackasses... particularly when it affects the flow of commerce.

Although it works both ways but other nations do not like that tactic of China's or perhaps, most nations cannot pull it off as that they are afraid of local protests. Unlike in China where foreign people goes to protest in their territory will instantly result in getting taken away, detained, or even beaten up, as well as deported. Chinese people who complain in other nations get away with it as that there is democracy and freedom of speech. Generally, the tactic China deployed only works for them, not both ways unless the nation would like to be criticized for violating democracy and freedom of speech, that is..

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

So does the USA for some reason.

Good point!

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vexx

You are correct and I've always thought it fascinating that not a single one of the politicians in those countries retorted, "Why are you interfering in the internal affairs of our country?" (and then smile). Works both ways....
But really, I don't have a problem with countries glaring at each other or wagging their fingers at each other over the way they run internal affairs --- it encourages all governments to behave a bit less like jackasses... particularly when it affects the flow of commerce.

Well when it comes to money and trade, it can work wonderful ways....

Response to Tiananmen 1989
Singapore: The government offered no comment on the incident, but criticized Western calls for economic sanctions against China, dismissing them as interfering in China’s internal affairs.

How pragmatic.

[Kudryavka]

Speaking of which, did they ever find out who Tankman is?

[Hari Michiru]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

And after 1989, yes the economic was booming afterward, but the freedom was not increasing at all, and in fact, ppl actually enjoyed less freedom then before. Take the china's major earthquake last year as an example, many many schools were collapsed because they were illegally built (like the building was not as strong as it should have been)...families of victims cannot make their cases heard in central china government, because local government blocked their path to the capital...local government beat those ppl up, locked them up somewhere else so they would not be able to present their cases to higher level. And when someone found out the proof that those buildings were not properly built, that guy got arrested for "stealing country's top level secret"

People so quickly forget the quick response the central government had when the earthquake happened. If the CCP really didn't give a crap about the Chinese people, they wouldn't have sent the Prime Minister done in less than four hours to deal with the aftermath. Just because they're Communists, doesn't mean they're only capable of bad.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Komari

Speaking of which, did they ever find out who Tankman is?

Some people say he's dead, some people say he's in China hiding somewhere, and some say he's in Taiwan.
Which is an elaborate way of saying: "Nobody knows."

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

If "nothing ever happened" 20 years ago, what are trying to hide?

It's fear. If there is one sticking point, one niggling factor that the central government doesn't want to admit to, this is it. From a more balanced point of view, a lot of other governments also have things to hide, and the truth often doesn't come out for several decades. I expect that China will follow suit after their leadership is turned over a couple of times, and when those most culpable have passed away.

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Not to mention that their attempts at trying to hide this are probably drawing even more attention from the media.

It doesn't; there's going to be intense media coverage every June, and China's actions aren't going to change that to any great degree. Moreover, China's leaders would love it if there was more focus on their silly security antics (which aren't really all that funny given the secret police can do) than on the substance of those events twenty years ago.

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

Actually, China's tactics are pretty much that they preferred to be feared rather than respected. After all, they do have quite some mighty economy power and an average military power supported by their huge number of soldiers or volunteers; aside from that, they also have the veto power in the United Nations.

On the contrary. While China's diplomatic moves are still terribly clumsy at times, they are a lot more effective now than they were in the past. It's quite simple: China's leaders want respect whenever possible, and will try to invoke fear if they don't think that garnering respect is going to work. It's an eminently rational approach, and it's really something that just about all countries try to get away with.

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

As for the Tiananmen Square, it is their domestic issue after all. Foreign nations would rather not interfere with it, even though China's hands are very bloody but helping those victims of their tyranny will not benefit anybody but rather bring misfortunes and unpleasant consequences as that some nations may end up with the "enemy+1" stat while everyone else won't make much of a difference as that words don't reach them. Sanctions won't work as that China is quite an economic partner of multiple nations meaning sanctions interfere with national interest.

I still remember very well when Western governments used Tiananmen as the main sticking point to any dealings with China. Something has changed from then to now, and they are time, and power. Democracies have an astonishing ability to forget about events that are no longer immediate, and this has lessened the power of even the most tragic events to maintain their influence over diplomatic negotiations. The power issue is just as Shadow Minato points out: China is an economic powerhouse like few others, and it's very unprofitable to cut the country out of dealings over such matters. And in the global economic crisis that we currently face, China is arguably the most important player (the U.S. is a bigger player, but it has less control of its own fate), and one that would be imprudent to overly offend. Just look at how quiet the U.S. has been in bringing up Tiananmen compared to years past.

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

Regardless of all this, why does China always have extra rights when it comes to interfering other nations' internal issues. China had complained that lawmakers in Japan visited a shrine to pay respects to the dead as that it serves as glorifying the military nature of the Imperial Army back during WWII. China complained against the British government for inviting the Dalai Lama over out of honor yet they claimed that the guy is a terrorist. China complained about Canada not visiting their nation enough of times to build ties over the economy, bringing out the issues of the head-taxes and calling it off as racism. China complained against the United States over their war on Iraq as that it was oil stealing and massacre. In the end, whenever people complain about North Korea and their human rights' issue, they always counter with the "mind your own business" or "keep a calm approach to the issue" attitude which makes them the biggest hypocrite in the entire world, am I not correct?

Shadow Minato, you are not correct. Here's a newsflash: all countries are hypocritical when it comes to acting in their own interest. Moreover, almost none of your examples are purely interal issues.

Originally Posted by Komari

Speaking of which, did they ever find out who Tankman is?

No. And we might never find out until and unless the PRC changes its tune.

[Jazzrat]

4Tran pretty much said i wanted i say.

Just like to add, in the global political arenas, domestic/internal issues are often used as a leverage on the bargaining table (typically for better concession on trade and military aspect).

China's weakpoint is generally their industrial practice and social policy which other countries attacks in order to gain a better economic foothold with China. Just look at the previous incident with French criticizing China for it's handling of the recent Tibet riot during the Olympic. Once the threat of boycotting French companies arises, French quiet down a fair bit on the issue as it's apparent China isnt willing to stepdown from their stance and France has little power over them.

For better or worse, China is going have to dabble more in foreign policy as well to protect itself better just as other countries had over the past few decades.

[LeoXiao]

The thing about China is that it seems to me to have figured out how to cut corners diplomatically and economically far better than any other comparable nation. If you look at the incident with the French, for example, that whole thing was absolutely absurd, something that was completely out of the ordinary. Yet only China can pull it off.

[Shadow Kira01]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

The thing about China is that it seems to me to have figured out how to cut corners diplomatically and economically far better than any other comparable nation. If you look at the incident with the French, for example, that whole thing was absolutely absurd, something that was completely out of the ordinary. Yet only China can pull it off.

China happens to have lots of intelligent people doing absolutely nothing but strategic planning everyday and thus, it is only natural that they figure some economy-based diplomacy policies and tactics that most other nations wouldn't possibly think of. Most certainly, these intellectuals are being paid large amounts of money, as well as guaranteed a life of luxury. This sort of government-behavior don't occur in democratic nations as that citizens will be unpleased.

[Hari Michiru]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

China happens to have lots of intelligent people doing absolutely nothing but strategic planning everyday and thus, it is only natural that they figure some economy-based diplomacy policies and tactics that most other nations wouldn't possibly think of. Most certainly, these intellectuals are being paid large amounts of money, as well as guaranteed a life of luxury. This sort of government-behavior don't occur in democratic nations as that citizens will be unpleased.

What's wrong with being paid more for your intellect?

If you like being paid the same, if you are a doctor or a janitor, then Communism (in its true form) is the government you're looking for.

[Shadow Kira01]

Originally Posted by Hari Michiru

What's wrong with being paid more for your intellect?

If you like being paid the same, if you are a doctor or a janitor, then Communism (in its true form) is the government you're looking for.

It seems you aren't reading what I wrote in my last post and quoted a random sentence at the end of the huge self-explanatory paragraph. Or perhaps, you are doing it on intentionally.

What I am saying is that China is paying money to people specifically doing the work of plotting conspiracies, coming up with strategies, as well as diplomatic policies enhanced by the global financial situation with ties to their own economic might. I said nothing about paying high amounts of money between a doctor and a janitor. You may be good at the word-game but I am better. Sorry!

[Hari Michiru]

Originally Posted by Shadow Minato

It seems you aren't reading what I wrote in my last post and quoted a random sentence at the end of the huge self-explanatory paragraph. Or perhaps, you are doing it on intentionally.

What I am saying is that China is paying money to people specifically doing the work of plotting conspiracies, coming up with strategies, as well as diplomatic policies enhanced by the global financial situation with ties to their own economic might. I said nothing about paying high amounts of money between a doctor and a janitor. You may be good at the word-game but I am better. Sorry!

Doesn't every country do that though? Why do people insist on singling China out? We never did anything to you.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Hari Michiru

Doesn't every country do that though? Why do people insist on singling China out? We never did anything to you.

Comparable countries don't have a black jails, an active cooperation between the mafia, government, and military, and no nation has a Party quite like the CCP. In these respects China is pretty unique. Russia approaches some of these qualities but it's not nearly as intense (except for the mafia part)

[Shadow Kira01]

Originally Posted by Hari Michiru

Doesn't every country do that though? Why do people insist on singling China out? We never did anything to you.

Never?

In immigrant nations, Chinese people always meddle with the nation's politics and foreign policies, whereas immigrants of other nations would never do such a thing. Aside from that, China also steal technology and business profitable information, whereas other nations rarely do it or possibly don't. Do you see other nations' people surround news media places with huge gatherings holding unreasonable protests? Do you see other nations' people complaining to their local government about making not enough visits to their country China? In fact, these people have totally forgotten which nation's citizen they are. Its almost like they are doing things for the benefit of China's national interest. Funny thing is that most of these immigrant nations tend to turn a blind eye as that they are afraid of China in various aspects to the point that it is plain lame and embarassing.

It is also the fault of this single one community that the majority of European nations will now have anti-immigration policies in which every other non-Chinese community will suffer. Why did this happen? Well.. To put it simple, the European Union cannot just single out China, right? As that, it would be considered as racism. And thus, they decided to make it fair and that anti-immigration policies apply to every nation and people altogether.

[Lathdrinor]

Eh, I'm pretty sure the European anti-immigration policies are directed at Muslims, not Chinese, who form a tiny minority in most European nations. Also, Jews are far more active in the politics and foreign policies of Western countries than Chinese are, and as far as I know this isn't necessarily a bad thing (though it has its ups and downs - ie some people complain that the pro-Israel policies of the US are in part due to the influence of the Jewish lobby).

True about the espionage, though. It has to do with the fact that the PRC has an elaborate and sophisticated intelligence agency targeting expats, which other nations don't because, frankly, they can't afford to be caught whereas the PRC can (and don't care). Expats are often tricked (or maybe even blackmailed) to divulge information by this agency - ie the agency would approach them pretending to be a civilian company interested only in doing business but, after gaining the expats' trust, steal confidential technology for the Chinese government. In practice, it's very hard to catch these people, since the PRC has one of the best intelligence agencies in the world.

Btw, from what I hear, many if not most of those Chinese student protesters are actually not immigrants but exchange students - ie Chinese nationals, who are naturally loyal to their home country.

[LeoXiao]

Btw, from what I hear, many if not most of those Chinese student protesters are actually not immigrants but exchange students - ie Chinese nationals, who are naturally loyal to their home country.

This is very true. In fact, even Chinese who are immigrants are loyal to their home country, and regard America as simply a better place to live. It's very hypocritical.

Oh, and while I'm here, I guess I'll post a link to an essay on the CCP's methods of continuous revolution that I finally finished for my history class. It's not that great IMO, and probably pretty biased, but if you're interested it's here:
http://leoxiao.deviantart.com/art/Pe...ion-125370358#