Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Kha]

*watches drooling Goose get stretchered away*

Yes you do.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

And No, Sheba, she isn't squishy. She's CUDDLY. There's a subtle yet significant difference there. Cuddly cuddly Hayatechans~ Don't worry Hayatechans, even of 4chan hates you, we love you~

* Upon hearing Hayatechans, Hayate's secretary has a vision over how to fill the ballots: a brand of Hayate Yagami plushies, so people will know who to vote in the next Midchilda presidency.

[Avatar_notADV]

I would buy a Hayate plushy.

That said, if you guys are gonna talk alt-verse stuff, take it to the fic threads, please. This stuff is complicated enough without saying "it works like this if I ever get around to retconning half of Nanoha".

All that said, y'all are selling Hayate short. She's hardly a glass cannon. What she -is-, is an artillery piece. It's not that she's hopeless at close range - we know she has a variety of useful melee-magic, left over from Reinforce I's legacy. It's just that what she's goooood at is delivering tremendous, game-breaking magic from insane range.

Think of the 88mm German gun in WWII. Technically an anti-aircraft weapon, it saw a heck of a lot of anti-armor use, especially in North Africa. If you're aiming a flak cannon over open sights, you're "Doing It Wrong", but it was quite effective all the same; the power it delivered worked just as well against stuff it didn't have any business fighting against.

Hayate's the same way. Compare her and Nanoha with the fire in ep 1. Nanoha can quickly get in, rescue people, get out; she's not really threatened by the fire, and can move freely in dangerous areas. Hayate... well, she PUT OUT THE FIRE. The whole thing, in a single shot. That's something that Nanoha just couldn't do.

So there's nothing wrong, weak, or broken with Hayate. She's artillery. Like artillery, she works best with support and forward observation. Nanoha and Fate can take punishment and dish it out, but Hayate can wreck whole formations of the enemy before they can even engage.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

You can tell that to the woman in California who died in a water drinking contest trying to win her son a PS3. She died of hyponatremia after downing several gallons of water in a very short period of time. She won of course... though I think this would be classified as a shallow victory.

There IS a point in which 'copius' amounts of water WILL cause hyponatremia. The maximum safe limit is, If I'm remembering my training, around eighteen to twenty-two quarts of water in a 24 hour period. (Five Gallons for an entire day.)

So yes, it IS something that will happen because you drank five gallons of water... Especially if you do so in a much shorter period of time than a whole day. Because you quite simply, force flush your system.(Granted of course, most people's system will reject anything more than guzzling three quarts in five minutes via nice, dependable vomiting. It's simply a point where you cannot hold that much water and it's not being absorbed fast enough to make more room...)


Me, I've never come close. The most I've had is eight or nine quarts in a single day. And that was in the peak of georgia summer heat and humidity with a nice uncomfortable hydration formation where we downed a two-quart canteen at the closing of the day. Ugh... Walk around feeling like a living water baloon after that, and then you spend the next two hours making trips to the latrine every ten minutes. Water in Water out, and then some.

You mean Jennifer Lea Strange who died of water intoxication from the competition for the Nintendo Wii? Aye, it's a tragic case of hyponatremia. Amen to her and her families.

I'm not particularly sure if it's a general trend outside my country, but typical drinking water (or just plain mineral water) has very little chance of causing hyponatremia. Do note that for Mrs. Strange's case, her water was sodium-free (perhaps pure distilled water), which in case of course caused her body's osmotic balance to crash. That, and because she's not allowed to go to pass her motion, easily threw her plasma osmolarity off.

Maybe I should rephrase my sentence a bit. It's true that you cannot drink too much of pure water, but only if you're forced, under any circumstances, to defy your body's natural mechanisms of control.

P/S: This is, of course, not encouraging any of the reader to try this out. Homeostasis is a complex thing, and although we know the general gist of things from biology, in certain circumstances, things may just go horribly wrong.

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

I would buy a Hayate plushy.

Aaron and I will probably scour the ends of the earth for one, barring the availability and price.

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

So there's nothing wrong, weak, or broken with Hayate. She's artillery. Like artillery, she works best with support and forward observation. Nanoha and Fate can take punishment and dish it out, but Hayate can wreck whole formations of the enemy before they can even engage.

Quoted for truth.

I find Hayate just fine as she is, without all the needs to turn her into some sort of god-killing machine with uber ranged and melee prowess. If she's artillery, let her remain at it, no point forcing her to become something else she's not meant to be. Leave the front line battles to those more suited for it.

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

oh, and my own take on Hayate: Her "large pool" is a product of the Tome of the Night Sky i believe, so as it's artificial, and Belkan may not have perfected the use (hence why it went on rampage) i'd say that it cost her a lot of control.

Hayate's large mana reserves are probably natural- the Book selects for them in its hosts in the first place.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Hayate's large mana reserves are probably natural- the Book selects for them in its hosts in the first place.

That's a plausible interpretation. Mine is that it tris and find someone of the "proper" nature. Remember that the tome was supposed to be for knoweldge purpose at the beginning, so it should have tried and find masters that have adaptable magic, not large magic.

Also, the fact that hayate was supposed to "hear" the tome, and didn't, tend to support my view (of coruse, you *could* say that it's because she had the tome from way too young).

It's a matter of choice, i guess

[Keroko]

That could also be viewed as that she had the mana, but no knowledge of how to acces or use it. Nanoha also has a massive mana pool, but was never aware of that, nor was anyone, untill Yuuno showed up.

In fact, Hayate did hear it, but she says it sounded muffled to her.

I wonder though, what do you mean by 'adaptable magic?'

[Nagumo]

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

I would buy a Hayate plushy.

That said, if you guys are gonna talk alt-verse stuff, take it to the fic threads, please. This stuff is complicated enough without saying "it works like this if I ever get around to retconning half of Nanoha".

All that said, y'all are selling Hayate short. She's hardly a glass cannon. What she -is-, is an artillery piece. It's not that she's hopeless at close range - we know she has a variety of useful melee-magic, left over from Reinforce I's legacy. It's just that what she's goooood at is delivering tremendous, game-breaking magic from insane range.

Think of the 88mm German gun in WWII. Technically an anti-aircraft weapon, it saw a heck of a lot of anti-armor use, especially in North Africa. If you're aiming a flak cannon over open sights, you're "Doing It Wrong", but it was quite effective all the same; the power it delivered worked just as well against stuff it didn't have any business fighting against.

Hayate's the same way. Compare her and Nanoha with the fire in ep 1. Nanoha can quickly get in, rescue people, get out; she's not really threatened by the fire, and can move freely in dangerous areas. Hayate... well, she PUT OUT THE FIRE. The whole thing, in a single shot. That's something that Nanoha just couldn't do.

So there's nothing wrong, weak, or broken with Hayate. She's artillery. Like artillery, she works best with support and forward observation. Nanoha and Fate can take punishment and dish it out, but Hayate can wreck whole formations of the enemy before they can even engage.

... Now I'm imagining Hayate as one of those mecha-musume types because you're going on about artillary...

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by Nagumo

... Now I'm imagining Hayate as one of those mecha-musume types because you're going on about artillary...

Funny you should mention that, because I'd pay good money to see Hayate dressed up as the Wing Zero Custom.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Keroko

That could also be viewed as that she had the mana, but no knowledge of how to acces or use it. Nanoha also has a massive mana pool, but was never aware of that, nor was anyone, untill Yuuno showed up.

In fact, Hayate did hear it, but she says it sounded muffled to her.

I wonder though, what do you mean by 'adaptable magic?'

Soemone who is ok at evrything, but doesn't have any strong point. A scholar, maybe.

mmmh, i distinctively remember the knights being surprised by Hayate's lack of understanding of the book (it is supposed to act as a teacher of sort to its master i believe, as that would be the logical choice for a tome of learning).

Hayate, for exemple, seems able to use a wide variety of spells with Reingforce I, but needs the complete incantation.

[Keroko]

The book had previously only chosen powerfull and experienced mages lusting for power as its master, mages who searched for the tome (sound stages confirm this). Logically the Wolkenritter would be confused that the tome suddenly fell into the hands of an inocent little girl who wasn't even a mage, just a girl with a large mana pool.

The book ceased to be a tool of learning when it got altered, as soon as it got altered, it became a tool of destruction. Only after it was reconstructed after A's did it become somewhat what it used to be, right now its a Device that has saved an immense amount of spell data.

Back to the point, The book selected Hayate for the main reason that she wasn't a diabolical master intent on world domination, since the book feeds of a Linker Core, its logical that it also went for the biggest one available, hence why it went for Hayate and not... say... Nanoha?

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Back to the point, The book selected Hayate for the main reason that she wasn't a diabolical master intent on world domination, since the book feeds of a Linker Core, its logical that it also went for the biggest one available, hence why it went for Hayate and not... say... Nanoha?

Now there's an interesting AU idea; Nanoha gets chosen by the book and Hayate gets chosen by Raising Heart.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Hayate's large mana reserves are probably natural- the Book selects for them in its hosts in the first place.

*covers ears from Anita's incessant cackling*

Damn twins.

Originally Posted by Arkeus

That's a plausible interpretation. Mine is that it tris and find someone of the "proper" nature. Remember that the tome was supposed to be for knoweldge purpose at the beginning, so it should have tried and find masters that have adaptable magic, not large magic.

Also, the fact that hayate was supposed to "hear" the tome, and didn't, tend to support my view (of coruse, you *could* say that it's because she had the tome from way too young).

It's a matter of choice, i guess

Unfortunately, the book was altered to be a spell-stealer, and whoever did it must've done it clandestine and half-assed, resulting in a runaway monstrosity. Hence the penchant to chew on giant mana pools rather than mages with a plethora of spells.

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Soemone who is ok at evrything, but doesn't have any strong point. A scholar, maybe.

mmmh, i distinctively remember the knights being surprised by Hayate's lack of understanding of the book (it is supposed to act as a teacher of sort to its master i believe, as that would be the logical choice for a tome of learning).

Hayate, for exemple, seems able to use a wide variety of spells with Reingforce I, but needs the complete incantation.

Just a side-point, but do try and correct your typos a little; its a wee bit hard to read at the moment.

However, a jack of all trades then shouldn't have a nuke far larger than a master of blasting, which Hayate clearly did. Most of Hayate's spells are ceremonial (long cast times) and have gigantic AOE, certainly supporting the cannon part of artillery.

The Wolkies were surprised also because Hayate wasn't a diabolical mage in pursuit of power which they were used to. If she were, the likelihood of knowing about the book increases much more. And Hayate's a normal Earthling; her starting point is pretty much like Shiro in FSN.

An incantation is a mathematical formula, and an avenue of focusing and moulding mana into a spell. While Intelligent Devices can handle the math, the focusing and moulding relies on the mage, hence the chanting.

This just shows that Hayate has a lot of complicated spells that are great at range but need a speed bump if the target gets closer (the Book has Wolkies to act as that anyway), not that she's unfamiliar with the book.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Now there's an interesting AU idea; Nanoha gets chosen by the book and Hayate gets chosen by Raising Heart.

One that involves switching the Linker Cores around too. IMO that's changing the character to fit a timeline, something I'm not fond of, since only the Ces'rauva were designed to do that.

[Arkeus]

Sorry about the typos, i will try to reread a bit more thoroughly from now on :/

Interesting: you say the change of the tome was half-assed, so they went for the largest mana pool, and i say the change was half-assed, so they weren't able to change who it went for

What they might have been able to change is the "corruption" though.

I am pretty sure it was a plot point of A's that Hayate did *not* have a lrge linker core, but that it was given to her by the books.

About the book Having WMD Larger than the original, it's kind of normal: Even if we count only Nanoha's Nature, it took lots of linker core that may have had some of Nanoha's "type" too. So Hayate's spell was "Nanoha's power + Those".

Or at least, that's how i took it.

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by Keroko

The book had previously only chosen powerfull and experienced mages lusting for power as its master, mages who searched for the tome (sound stages confirm this). Logically the Wolkenritter would be confused that the tome suddenly fell into the hands of an inocent little girl who wasn't even a mage, just a girl with a large mana pool.

My interpretation has always been that the Book selected solely for size of mana reserves (after all, reincarnation is a function of the defense program, which is concerned only with self-preservation and wouldn't sabotage itself) and ending up in the hands of incredibly powerful, self-assured mages who usually sought its power was a natural but not intended result of that criterion. Hayate became the exception purely by happy accident by being born with incredible mana on a world with no knowledge of magic.

The book ceased to be a tool of learning when it got altered, as soon as it got altered, it became a tool of destruction. Only after it was reconstructed after A's did it become somewhat what it used to be, right now its a Device that has saved an immense amount of spell data.

Even if the current Tome has all the data of the original (which I doubt), without Reinforce to administrate, explain, and guide the use of that knowledge it's only a shadow of the original in usefulness.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

My interpretation has always been that the Book selected solely for size of mana reserves (after all, reincarnation is a function of the defense program, which is concerned only with self-preservation and wouldn't sabotage itself) and ending up in the hands of incredibly powerful, self-assured mages who usually sought its power was a natural but not intended result of that criterion. Hayate became the exception purely by happy accident by being born with incredible mana on a world with no knowledge of magic.



Even if the current Tome has all the data of the original (which I doubt), without Reinforce to administrate, explain, and guide the use of that knowledge it's only a shadow of the original in usefulness.

The Tome was said not to have the original Data of the earlier one.

I Truly think it's more a thing off affinity with a certain kind of magic than anything else. In fact, i look at it from a completely different angle than you do: i ask myself,, why did they change the tome?

My answer is "to not only get the spell, but the power too".

It has been hinted in A's that Hayate's magical power was Subpar. I would say those others were, too, but that they resented that, and got cocky with the book.

[Kikaifan]

No, the Tome didn't understand its own original form in enough detail to revert back to it. It still had its collection of ancient spells.

Hayate's magic was undeveloped. The other masters' were explicitly not.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

No, the Tome didn't understand its own original form in enough detail to revert back to it. It still had its collection of ancient spells.

Hayate's magic was undeveloped. The other masters' were explicitly not.

Ah, i didn't get what you meant. Yeah, the spells were still there

Mmmmh...i said "sub par", not underdeveloped. I tried to say they weren't really strong in raw power, but were still mages. Hayate, from what i understand, had the Tome from Before her Linker Core was stable, hence it was caged.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Sorry about the typos, i will try to reread a bit more thoroughly from now on :/

Interesting: you say the change of the tome was half-assed, so they went for the largest mana pool, and i say the change was half-assed, so they weren't able to change who it went for

What they might have been able to change is the "corruption" though.

I am pretty sure it was a plot point of A's that Hayate did *not* have a lrge linker core, but that it was given to her by the books.

About the book Having WMD Larger than the original, it's kind of normal: Even if we count only Nanoha's Nature, it took lots of linker core that may have had some of Nanoha's "type" too. So Hayate's spell was "Nanoha's power + Those".

Or at least, that's how i took it.

Original programming was corrupted, scanning suite damaged, complex processing diminished... Spell arsenal analysis needs these higher powers, and the lost of it means that the OS falls back to the most basic, the assessment of mana pool size.

Couple that reduced AI to a badly programmed addon, and the thing goes bonkers. I know computers do that too often.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

I am pretty sure it was a plot point of A's that Hayate did *not* have a lrge linker core, but that it was given to her by the books.

The first episode clearly shows Hayate's Linker Core, though, and since the book of darkness feeds off Linker Cores, its logical that it would go for a big one.

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

My interpretation has always been that the Book selected solely for size of mana reserves (after all, reincarnation is a function of the defense program, which is concerned only with self-preservation and wouldn't sabotage itself) and ending up in the hands of incredibly powerful, self-assured mages who usually sought its power was a natural but not intended result of that criterion. Hayate became the exception purely by happy accident by being born with incredible mana on a world with no knowledge of magic.

No, the sound stages confirm that the book definetely chose its masters consiously. Or rather, she chose her masters cosiously. You have to remember that Reinforce is the book of darkness, she just wasn't called Reinforce untill Hayate pushed through.

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Even if the current Tome has all the data of the original (which I doubt), without Reinforce to administrate, explain, and guide the use of that knowledge it's only a shadow of the original in usefulness.

I'm not sure if it has all the data aquired in its milenia of existence (the presence of a spell like Hraesvelgr or Atem des Eises makes me think so though), but at the very least it has been mentioned that it still has all the data gathered in the last incident.

And yes, the current book only is a shadow of its former self.