[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Technically, Obito had never seen Hiraishin (the technique was literally first used around the time of his "death"). So, Tobi could have still been surprised.

It's hard to believe that Obito didn't realize what Minato did to the guy who Kakashi was first fighting against, the guy who had 20 clones hinding on trees.

It might be that Obito had in his mind a Madara clone (similarily to Naruto having in his his father, mother, kyuubi and who knows what else ) that he could let take over his mind and fight. That would explain Tobi's performance and personality when fighting Minato.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Technically, Obito had never seen Hiraishin (the technique was literally first used around the time of his "death"). So, Tobi could have still been surprised.

Obito planned for Minato to use Hiraishin by forcing him to teleport with Naruto and an explosive tag and he knew that Minato had a Hiraishin tag on Kushina's seal. He also knew full well its capability when he tried to bind Yondaime in chain and when he ignored the possibility that Minato could teleport to the kunai he had just thrown at his face.
It wasn't ignorance, it was... Well brain damage explains that too.

[Phoenix321]

Tobi is Black Zetsu merged with Obito.
Obito has white Zetsu cells now from the first Hokage(That Heal at random instances of time #601!!),then I am assuming Black Zetsu is what Madara left Obito with to train and be his better half. Doesn't Zetsu have the "record" Ability? Would also explain how Madara trained Obito through Zetsu..

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Obito planned for Minato to use Hiraishin by forcing him to teleport with Naruto and an explosive tag and he knew that Minato had a Hiraishin tag on Kushina's seal. He also knew full well its capability when he tried to bind Yondaime in chain and when he ignored the possibility that Minato could teleport to the kunai he had just thrown at his face.
It wasn't ignorance, it was... Well brain damage explains that too.

Being aware of a technique, even planning for it, is not the same as actually encountering the technique. Obito had never experienced Hiraishin, arguably has never seen it in action, and no amount planning can completely account for what you do not know. It could be as simple as that.

[Teru987]

your saying that obito has not seen that tech before but what about then kakashi ran off with chidori and was saved by minato? or does that not count?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Teru987

your saying that obito has not seen that tech before but what about then kakashi ran off with chidori and was saved by minato? or does that not count?

Actually, judging by Rin's words (she claimed Minato only used a Shuushin...which could have been true), and Kakashi's lack of understanding what his birthday kunai was, none of the students knew about Hiraishin.

[Teru987]

But he did use it to kill off Mahiru the guy kakashi attacked after he probably use to get to kakashi in the first place. So I think obito did see it cause rin was helping kakashi.

[james0246]

^There is no shot of Obito watching the fight (after cowering in fear), so there is how way of saying that he saw the technique. Additionally Rin did see the fight, and her thought bubble directly named Minato's speed as Shuushin. So, his students did not know about Hiraishin (at the time).

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Being aware of a technique, even planning for it, is not the same as actually encountering the technique. Obito had never experienced Hiraishin, arguably has never seen it in action, and no amount planning can completely account for what you do not know. It could be as simple as that.

That could arguably be the case until he saw it first hand but it's pretty stupid a 2nd time, completely nonsensical a 3rd, and the 4th is time to look for a brain tumor the size of a basketball.

[james0246]

^Well, Obito did have part of his skull partially crushed, so he somewhat has an excuse for any perceived stupidity....

[Hunter]

Hence why I concluded it was brain damage which you countered with lack of experience to which I replied with negative learning curve to which you answered with brain damage.
The cycle is complete!

[Shay]

Originally Posted by Phoenix321

Tobi is Black Zetsu merged with Obito.
Obito has white Zetsu cells now from the first Hokage(That Heal at random instances of time #601!!),then I am assuming Black Zetsu is what Madara left Obito with to train and be his better half. Doesn't Zetsu have the "record" Ability? Would also explain how Madara trained Obito through Zetsu..

I'm going with this also.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Hence why I concluded it was brain damage which you countered with lack of experience to which I replied with negative learning curve to which you answered with brain damage.
The cycle is complete!

Joking aside, I do believe as I wrote that Obito simply did not know the full extent of the powers of Hiraishin (which, to be fair, the audience didn't either). Tobi's actions can easily be explained as surprise mixed with exasperation.

[Hunter]

If we're not joking anymore then no I don't think I can agree with that. Hiraishin isn't a complicated jutsu to grasp, it's a reverse summoning to a designated seal, the seal part is something we know for a fact Obito was aware of.
So I'm supposed to believe Obito wasn't aware that it was instant, ok it's stupid but my suspension of disbelief can take the hit.
Then I'm supposed to believe that Obito was still surprised after witnessing it once to the extent that he purposely didn't capture Minato as fast as he could into his own dimension. No surprise can explain that and my suspension of disbelief just crashed in flames.
Then I'm supposed to believe that Obito knowing full well and seeing first hand what Minato can do tried to bind him in chains for no discernable reason. Now this isn't about suspension of disbelief anymore it's just mindblowingly stupid, there is simply no way to rationalize that.
And finally after all this I'm supposed to believe that Obito still couldn't grasp the concept and was so genuinely retarded he couldn't guess at the most telegraphed move Minato could do. Nop, Yondaime teleporting to his kunai over and over was too subtle a hint apparently.

There is no credible rationalization for Tobi's actions. The author simply went for the fangasm route which in general is a bad idea, didn't take the pain to write the scene credibly when it took place which is worse and worst of all did it after his characters explained that the opposite had taken place (re-read Minato and Naruto's comments about this fight in insight, it's priceless). This is the kind of things you should expect from fanfictions, not from a professional writer even in a medium like Shounen manga.

(which, to be fair, the audience didn't either)

We didn't?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

There is no credible rationalization for Tobi's actions. The author simply went for the fangasm route

I don't disagree with this particular portion of what you have written. Kishimoto does have a habit of exalting certain figures. Still, I felt this 'fight' was in the realm of possibility, especially if Tobi was really a 16 year old Obito when they fought. (And yes, the fight was retconned at least once, and will probably be retconned again during a future flashback.)

Originally Posted by Hunter

We didn't?

Did we?

Did we know Minato could transport foreign attacks through his seals? Did we know that Minato could transport other people or even Bijuu? Did we know that Minato could transport himself while the seal is in motion (considering in all other instances the seal was at rest)? No we did not. (I'm also unclear if we knew he could use the technique beyond his kunai (by affixing the seal on a person or another object), but that is a very simple logical step). There was plenty about Hiraishin that was unknown before the flashback (and some that was retconned in).

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

There is no credible rationalization for Tobi's actions.

Unfortunately Tobi being the loser Obito seems to be a rational explanation
It reminds me of Naruto who tries the same approach multiple times even if it always failed

BTW Kishimoto writes for the average reader, and most of us didn't even notice how stupid Tobi's behavior was until you explained it point by point

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

I don't disagree with this particular portion of what you have written. Kishimoto does have a habit of exalting certain figures. Still, I felt this 'fight' was in the realm of possibility, especially if Tobi was really a 16 year old Obito when they fought. (And yes, the fight was retconned at least once, and will probably be retconned again during a future flashback.)

Well we've come down to a matter of sensibility, your suspension of disbelief was stronger than mine in this occasion.

Did we?

Did we know Minato could transport foreign attacks through his seals? Did we know that Minato could transport other people or even Bijuu? Did we know that Minato could transport himself while the seal is in motion (considering in all other instances the seal was at rest)? No we did not. (I'm also unclear if we knew he could use the technique beyond his kunai (by affixing the seal on a person or another object), but that is a very simple logical step). There was plenty about Hiraishin that was unknown before the flashback (and some that was retconned in).

The first was another jutsu altogether, I'll grant you the second although it played no real part in the fighting per say (and technically we knew reverse summoning could do that), we did know the 3rd (in fact I don't recall there ever was any doubt on that, for what possible reason?) and the 4th is how we witnessed Hiraishin used for the 1st time when Minato put a seal on the Rock ninja's foot.
Simply put Minato did nothing out of the ordinary or even a little clever with Hiraishin when fighting Obito, the poor kid just suffered from acute moronism for a time. The worst thing is that it wouldn't be very difficult to imagine clever Hiraishin tricks to show off Minato and make the fight credible instead of dumbing down Obito to the point of becoming a drooling fool.

[Aquillion]

Wait, do we know for sure that the Tobi who fought Minato was Obito? I mean, there could be more than one person to wear that mask. It's possible that (say) that was Madara, who later died, after which Obito put on his mask and pretended to be him.

(It's also possible that the writer didn't really think through where he was going with things. If you go reread the first few chapters, it's obvious that he originally intended for Naruto to physically be the nine-tailed fox, say, like in the pilot.)

[Teru987]

All of that makes me think that TOBI WAS NEVER OBITO!!! I think kishi forgot that he made tobi to be a new character or at least one we knew but never saw. Then kishi got hit in the head with a boulder an then tobi=obito came out.


from the flash back that we just saw madara was an old man so it couldnt have been him but we never know since we could all be under the moon eye plan

[Essenar]

I see a lot of people bitter that they were wrong about Tobi not being Obito.

This reminds me of Matrix Revolution where people posted paragraphs upon paragraphs of alternate dimension theories and speculation and getting praise about how they "nailed it" and the most simplest theories were dismissed, and sure enough, the simplest theories were true.

Don't dismiss Obito being Tobi as 'plot hole riddled'. This manga has plenty of plot holes. Danzo existing was ENTIRELY a plot hole. Most writers only know the ending of their stories and everything else just fits together but Kishimoto has signaled to us for a LONG time that Tobi=Obito. The alternate dimension Kamui, which seems to be family line dependent, was a major hint. And to me, when Tobi fought Minato, that looked like a late teenager fighting Minato. He didn't look as TALL as Minato. Angles or not.

I seriously doubt Kishimoto CHANGED the entire plot of Tobi just for the sake of pleasing fan boys. That's just stupid. It's stupider than Tobi being Obito at all. Believing that is just trying to hang onto the idea that he was more complex for the sake of self validation.

As for his ignorance against Minato - I don't think a lot of people knew how Minato fought until they actually fought him. A lot of people thought he was just 'really fast' to the point that he was called the Yellow Flash.

That being said, here's my thoughts:
We don't know how time passes between death and the after life. It's very possible Madara trained Obito in a fundamental way while he was 'dead'. Probably taught him how to use his Mangekyou, repaired his body with Zetsu and 'brain washed' him to the ways of Uchiha. The nail in the coffin was probably when Rin died. Now since Kishimoto hasn't revealed how Rin died yet, we can assume it was after the Shinobi War ended and before Naruto was born.

Whatever reservations Obito had about betraying his village probably died along with Rin, which prompted Obito to begin working for/alongside Madara. Madara probably, at this point, had already given the Rinnegan to Nagato.

As for why he said the Rinnegan was 'his', it's probably part of Madara's niche to teach his proteges to act as though they are one. That is, after all, his end game right? To make the world one and hold the world hostage in Genjutsu.

It makes perfect sense that with the training of Madara, Obito would jump that many strength levels to being superior to kages.

As for where this is going at this point:
Madara's Kage Bunshin alone, managed to wipe out all five of the kages and the entire Shinobi Alliance without breaking a sweat. It's safe to say that Madara and Tobi, with their unannounced trump card, are too much of a match for Naruto, Gai and Kakashi, sans Kurama/Hachibi or not.

I'm thinking: Sasuke and Naruto have to team up for this. This will not end their rivalry, but will end this arch.