Proposal: Forum Reorganization

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Write

So necro-posting is okay? I'm seriously asking btw.

EDIT: Hypothetically speaking, say there is no thread about feminism, where would the thread go in the current layout as opposed to the one detailed in the OP?

As long as it isn't the suggestion subforum, thread necro is fine generally.

Also personally I like most of the reorganizations suggested for this.

[Write]

Mixed answers huh

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Write

Mixed answers huh

Not really mixed. I, Genji and Konakaga basically said the same thing:

1. Thread-necro is basically okay if you have a point to say.
2. Don’t reply the age-old post.
3. Necro-ing Suggestion Threads usually means you do No.2, which isn’t really recommended either.

[Flying Dagger]

I like the manga/LN split. There is however a large number of LN+manga threads which might make it a little more challenging for the admins.

One thing I noticed is that there seem to be a rather high requirement for a title to gain its own subforum. A series such as Highschool DxD has something like 3 discussion threads, an anime thread, a LN thread, and a new series thread - always wondered why they haven't given the series its own subforum yet. Given the popularity the LN+manga+anime trinity these days imo the bar should be lowered.

A thread under "current series" can also get rather messy with various discussions. Various pictures are appearing in the Yahari thread while the "art style" discussion in Aku no Hana interfere with actual series discussion.


The seem to be too many splits in the General Anime Topics. I fear after the split each subforum would contain only 3-4 active threads. As a lazy person I like to to be able to go through everything with the last amount of click .

[RRW]

after thinking again. i think general anime split probably to fragmented.

i think it's better to have 2/3 only subforum

one for news/bussiness. other for other discussion. probably just keep recommendation the way it is

[relentlessflame]

The latest idea I'd float out there for General Anime is this:


General Anime <-- News, Companies, Staff, Merchandise, Sales, and Ratings go here
- Events and Conventions
- Suggestions, Recommendations, and Identification
- Likes, Dislikes, Contests, and Favourites


This is a more minimalist/conservative split, and basically just spins out two kinds of topics from General Anime that are there now (Like/Dislike/Favourite/Contest threads, and Events/Conventions). The identification thread also gets moved. We could always split other things out again later if people agree that it's for the best.


There was a similar proposal made before for General Chat that consolidated some of the splits.

[Kanon]

That split would work better for me. Why do you feel it's necessary though? General anime doesn't seem to be moving fast at all. On the first page, there are threads that have been inactive for days.

Manga and light novels is the bigger problem, but there's not much that can be done besides splitting the two, except maybe adding a feature to display only threads you've posted in (would be incredibly helpful to find threads. There is the search function but it doesn't work too well for some titles). No idea if it's possible with vbulletin.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Why do you feel it's necessary though? General anime doesn't seem to be moving fast at all. On the first page, there are threads that have been inactive for days.

In my view anyway, creating forums isn't just about whether it's "moving fast" (whether that's an anime thread that gets a sub-forum, or the proposed split). Sometimes having a dedicated forum gives a chance for things to grow and expand.

We've been quite aggressive at locking/merging/closing certain topics in General Anime so that the sub-forum wasn't overwhelmed with similar-seeming threads on topics that some don't care about. There are some people who really enjoy just randomly talking about their favourite characters, best/worst in various categories, and random contests and polls. But there others who find those threads repetitive and tiresome, and who think they add nothing to the conversation. But right now, we're stuck in this middle-ground that I feel is a bit stifling. I think that one of the reasons the sub-forum isn't moving as fast as it could is because people feel hesitant to create new topics. I think our general policy about "search before creating a duplicate" won't change, but I think having a split will give both sections more breathing room. People who don't like best/worst/"your favourite <x>" threads can avoid them, but those who enjoy them can have a bit more freedom. I think it's good for everyone.

As for Events and Conventions, this is mostly to make the threads easier to find for new users, and so hopefully to encourage people to post more about it. Right now, you could post a thread about a convention, but it'd end up buried between all the other anime threads and that'd make it hard to find. Not seeing the threads there, I think, discourages people from coming to this site to talk about it, and I think we'd like to encourage that conversation. (It was also previously requested in a feedback thread, but we just never got around to implementing it.)

The other thing I would say is that General Anime actually has threads on a huge variety of topics that would still probably interest people, but right now there are so many threads in that section that it makes it hard to find anything even in a search. Pruning the topics helps makes things more visible and helps people more easily see things they're interested in right on the first page (or without having to dig to page 16/49/whatever).


Edit:

Originally Posted by Kanon

a feature to display only threads you've posted in (would be incredibly helpful to find threads. There is the search function but it doesn't work too well for some titles). No idea if it's possible with vbulletin.

You can do this now. Just go to your Options and look for the option called "Default Thread Subscription Mode". You can change it to "No email notification" (or whatever else you want). And then, all the threads you post in from now on will automatically get added to your "Subscribed Threads" list, visible in your User CP. You can also subscribe to threads manually by clicking the "Thread Tools" dropdown at the top of each thread.

I personally use Subscribed Threads (and Subscribed Forums) almost exclusively to browse the site so that I can more quickly find the topics that interest me. (Apparently I have 262 subscribed threads. )

[Kanon]

Thanks for explaining. I understand your concerns better now.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Edit:
You can do this now. Just go to your Options and look for the option called "Default Thread Subscription Mode". You can change it to "No email notification" (or whatever else you want). And then, all the threads you post in from now on will automatically get added to your "Subscribed Threads" list, visible in your User CP. You can also subscribe to threads manually by clicking the "Thread Tools" dropdown at the top of each thread.

I personally use Subscribed Threads (and Subscribed Forums) almost exclusively to browse the site so that I can more quickly find the topics that interest me. (Apparently I have 262 subscribed threads. )

I know about that. I've been using it since the start and it's a very convenient way to keep up with threads. The problem is that it displays threads from all across the forum instead of the manga board only. I have 1163 subscribed threads, so.... not all that helpful when you need to find an old thread

Well, it's not a very big issue. I've never been unable to find a thread, it's just that it's a bit tedious to use the advanced search function for generic titles. I'm lazy like that. Another forum I used to go had that feature I talked about earlier so I got used to that.

[relentlessflame]

Ah, I see what you're saying now. So it's basically like a "thread filter" that applies on a forum-by-forum basis, sort of like the rest of the Display Options at the bottom (like sort by, prefix, etc.). I think it's a neat option, but yeah... not sure how easy it is to put that into this vBulletin.

You're also right that Subscribed Threads isn't very good for searching, at least with the current implementation. It'd be nice if there were a quick search box that would let you search your subscribed threads.

[Traece]

I do like a lot of what I'm seeing here, but I have some strong suggestions. Let's start with General Anime.

Edit: I've removed the suggestions I made which were already considered. Sorry about that.

As another more odd suggestion, General Anime Discussion should not be at the bottom of "Anime Related Topics." Generally you want to start broad on a listing and then narrow. It really should be General, Manga, Light Novels, Music, Fan Creations. I've omitted suggestions since it's intended to be put in general (but honestly I think it should stay where it is). Games does not belong in the Anime Related Topics section, especially since the majority of it doesn't actually have a relation to anime. The biggest topic in there from what I've seen is World of Tanks. It should be fit into the General Discussion section.
Currently the listing goes: Anime Related Topics: Fansub Groups, Music, Manga&LN, Games, Fan Creations, Suggestions, General.


I think I've sufficiently covered all of my comments about the anime section, so I'll move on to the general stuff. The IRL portion of Asuki, if you will.

Already I mentioned that games should really be in this section, as having it where it is with its content really doesn't make sense.

I don't see subdivisions in general chat being useful. Since each of these subdivisions is really a single topic as is, and this has for some time been the case, there doesn't seem to be a need to expand there. Honestly, I don't think that adding more subforums to general chat will make it more popular either.

If subdivisions are something you have your heart set on, I recommend a far more broad spread, almost like a small newspaper (something I actually have experience with. Yay). Try Sports, Lifestyles (which is basically an A&E and other mashup. Basically, anything pertaining to people doing stuff), and Conventions/cosplay/whatever.
An alternate and perhaps less Lifestyles-heavy listing: Sports, A&E, Lifestyles, etc. (In retrospect, this is probably a better spread for Asuki).

I think Tech Support would be fine being combined into one big category.

Edit: A second removal of redundant stuff.

If there are any questions let me know. If I have any other comments or suggestions I'll obviously leave them here.

-Traece

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Traece

I do like a lot of what I'm seeing here, but I have some strong suggestions. Let's start with General Anime.

...I appreciate your comments, but I think it may help to read through the rest of the thread to understand what has already been discussed, because re-explaining all the issues you point out would basically mean repeating everything again. There are reasons for many of the issues you point out, and at least understanding the rationale behind the proposal may help come up with a better compromise if you still don't like the compromises proposed thus far.



Edit: Here is another idea/revision for General Anime (based on additional feedback):

General Anime <-- Anything that doesn't fit elsewhere would go here
- Companies, Staff, Merchandise, and Metrics
- Events and Conventions
- Suggestions, Recommendation, and Identification

This proposal/option keeps the likes/dislikes/contests/favourites in the root, but splits out the "industry" threads to their own section.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

*snip*

I actually have been through all six pages of this thread a couple times, though I did miss your self-quote that you've just given me and I apologize for overlooking that. I can see how you would get the impression that I haven't, since some of my suggestions were in contradiction to some of the comments made, but as per my rationales this was somewhat intentional.

Perhaps, in hindsight, it was a poor decision on my part, but the primary reason why I chose to reiterate some of these topics was because that was supposed to be an explanation to the effect of: "Based on what I know and my personal experiences, this is what I think would work best for Asuki with what I know about the site and what I feel the staff should be cautious of."

As far as my comments of subdivisions go, as I said I apparently missed your post on this page somehow, and you've already beaten me to some of those suggestions.

Though I should add that a couple of my comments are suggestions that I haven't seen mentioned previously. Hopefully I haven't been missing several comments. I am, admittedly, doing a bit of juggling at home right now.

I apologize if this has been particularly wasteful, but if there's anything that I've said that seems interesting but wasn't properly explained let me know and I can make sure that it makes proper sense. I'll go ahead and omit some of the redundant comments from my post to make it a bit more useful.

Edit: I should tack on an additional observation that I'm pretty sure someone already mentioned, but I'm going to reinforce it: Music should probably get a subforum for J-Pop and/or K-Pop.

[brocko]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Edit: Here is another idea/revision for General Anime (based on additional feedback):

General Anime <-- Anything that doesn't fit elsewhere would go here
- Companies, Staff, Merchandise, and Metrics
- Events and Conventions
- Suggestions, Recommendation, and Identification

This proposal/option keeps the likes/dislikes/contests/favourites in the root, but splits out the "industry" threads to their own section.

This revision is something I can get behind.
I've always saw the industry type threads and the more subjective likes/dislikes thread as being the two distinct majority that make up General Anime.

[Haiprbim]

I have a small idea.

How about making one more Sub-forum at the General Chat, Forum for discussing of topics not related to either Anime & Manga or BitTorrent, called Forum Games?
Non-anime related topics that would focus purely for entertainment would go in there, such as Rate That "X", Count to "X" before "X", and so on.

Thoughts?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

How about making one more Sub-forum at the General Chat, Forum for discussing of topics not related to either Anime & Manga or BitTorrent, called Forum Games?
Non-anime related topics that would focus purely for entertainment would go in there, such as Rate That "X", Count to "X" before "X", and so on.

Generally speaking in the past, we've forbidden those sorts of threads, because they were regarded as spam and as lacking in purpose. That's just to tell you what the rule is today, though that doesn't mean it can never change. I can say that I definitely would not be okay with those sorts of threads appearing all over the place.

I am a bit concerned about creating (what could be perceived as) a "lawless slum" filled with spam and pointless threads where staff dare not tread. We've generally tried, to the extent we can, to make this forum a place where mature on-topic discussion is expected everywhere and the same rules apply throughout.

All that to say, I personally don't really have an opinon yet, but this proposal makes me feel uneasy, like "what are we getting ourselves into". The other staff may have stronger feelings one way or another.

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Generally speaking in the past, we've forbidden those sorts of threads, because they were regarded as spam and as lacking in purpose. That's just to tell you what the rule is today, though that doesn't mean it can never change. I can say that I definitely would not be okay with those sorts of threads appearing all over the place.

I am a bit concerned about creating (what could be perceived as) a "lawless slum" filled with spam and pointless threads where staff dare not tread. We've generally tried, to the extent we can, to make this forum a place where mature on-topic discussion is expected everywhere and the same rules apply throughout.

All that to say, I personally don't really have an opinon yet, but this proposal makes me feel uneasy, like "what are we getting ourselves into". The other staff may have stronger feelings one way or another.

I was expecting this kind of a response, that is why I did not include everything in my previous post (Cleverly cool, wouldn't you agree? No? Ok...)
Anyhow, since we currently do have these kinds of threads, I would suggest that kind of forum section to keep them in one place and not all around the place, as you have said, they are more or less spam.
That is one reason, but there is also another one. Spam posts like that can fool the Total Post Count, however, creating a forum like that, we could add so the posts in that section do not add to the Overall Post Count.
This way, you could spam yourself to your heart's content without gaining anything else than just sort-of fun and at the same time, you wouldn't be disturbing other threads with quality discussions on them.

Your thoughts now?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

Your thoughts now?

I'm going to let some of the other staff respond if they want. I had already inferred the underlying philosophy of your proposal to have it separated.

I think in general that it's one thing to allow a few threads on a case-by-case basis (and close other without prejudice regularly) then it is to have a place where it's specifically allowed/condoned. I haven't really thought much about the implications of both on a wider scale.

Like I said, I want to hear more opinions before coming at a conclusion.

[Haiprbim]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think in general that it's one thing to allow a few threads on a case-by-case basis (and close other without prejudice regularly) then it is to have a place where it's specifically allowed/condoned.

Yes, but keep in mind that if people see those kind of threads out there, being really active as they are, they probably think: "Bah, why read the rules, we have a few really active threads like this that fill out half of the first page already, I'm sure they are allowed!"
My point is that these kind of threads are really active and really bumped and this is the case where you mustn't let just some exceptions through, because everyone will try to do so then.
Either allow or totally disable them, even the existing ones, although looking at their activity, I'd rather keep them in their own forum section, as I've suggested.

Like I said, I want to hear more opinions before coming at a conclusion.

Of course, never expected the otherwise.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Haiprbim

Yes, but keep in mind that if people see those kind of threads out there, being really active as they are, they probably think: "Bah, why read the rules, we have a few really active threads like this that fill out half of the first page already, I'm sure they are allowed!"
My point is that these kind of threads are really active and really bumped and this is the case where you mustn't let just some exceptions through, because everyone will try to do so then.
Either allow or totally disable them, even the existing ones, although looking at their activity, I'd rather keep them in their own forum section, as I've suggested.

I appreciate your perspective, but I don't think we have to be so dogmatic about it one way or another. It doesn't have to be "all or nothing". We basically settled on a compromise that has lasted for many years. I'm cetainly not claiming the compromise was perfect, as some of the changes proposed are seeking to adjust it... but I don't really buy the "if you allow some, you must allow them all" logic either. Life is full of "grey".