Psycho-Pass - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[CJ_Walker]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

. The only difference is that in the case of Sibyl, the humans who hold authority over it are the last people you want in that position.

The country is ruled by a cabal of those who lack the capacity for empathy. This is a feature, not a bug, because only those who are self-interested enough for us to label them "psychopaths" could effectively run such a rotten system. It's not that Sibyl's creators needed to use such people (as I had theorized), it's that those people were perfect for the job.

..

I think you're on to something Here, at to what message GEN is trying to convey. I think that what you described, pretty much describes. . .every politician. . .ever. Now that I think more about it. . .damn its even more interesting!

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I think some people might be missing out on the fact that the episode is presenting this revelation (and Touma, the Sibyl Representative) as being as monstrous as possible.

Also this right here.

I think a lot of people who miss out on this still want to think that a system like sybil is a good thing for society, when according to the creator of this story, is telling you otherwise, AND is using it as an allegory.

An allegory to what is what most people need to figure out. (I have an idea but I'm not telling )

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Ah, I see. You are in the "the population exists to serve the society" camp. You think it is a good idea to treat the population like they don't matter, like they can be killed on a whim, because "society" is more important than petty humans.

This might surprise you and everyone else here, but I'm honestly not. I'm probably neutral at best. I'm simply telling you that there's another side to all this, and that there are other models of government that exist that work for different reasons. Everything changes with a simple shift in perspective.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

...I was about to quote a couple of things in your previous posts which seemed really odd in the way they glorified psychopaths, but here you've basically come out and said that you think psychopaths are superior to other people. They're not.

Where the heck did this come from? All I said was that psychopaths are better in some respects. I'm not sure how this leads to the idea that "psychopaths are clearly superior". If you haven't noticed, all I'm advocating here is a wide neutral perspective while evaluating a work.

Originally Posted by garbage

this I wholeheartedly disagree, the worst Leaders you can think of are those that picture themselves as "beyond the system" or "above the Law". Cause how would they even know what would be good for Society & the people, and don't even experience it.That would not be governing, that would be playing god.

Dunno. There are quite a few political philosophers that would share my perspective, Thomas Hobbes for one. Humans are naturally chaotic and violent; therefore, any good leader has to be able to curb that nature. Well, that view isn't very popular (I don't believe in it myself), but it does show that such views are exactly unusual throughout the course of history. And personally, the broader a perspective any leader has, the better.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I feel a bit sorry for you, Qilin, because I've been on the other side of "1-on-4" style debates. It's not easy, so you have my sympathy.

Nonetheless, the reason why you're getting dogpiled a bit is that people, including myself, very strongly disagree with you on your assessment of Sibyl, and some of your philosophical viewpoints which informs it.

Well, I understand that much. If it helps any of you feel better about it, my views here are made while looking at society as a large comprehensive system. Whenever it seems like I'm glorifying the system, I'm actually just referring to its capacity to sustain its stability. My arguments would easily change if I shifted the focal point of my perspective to that of the individual instead of society as a machine.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There are very few situations where empathy is a bad thing. Negotiating with terrorists, running into conmen... empathy can be counterproductive here. But in most situations, it's much better to have empathy than it is to not have it. And I definitely think its beneficial for leaders to have empathy, because then they'll care about the well-being of the populace.

Clearly, if those are the only examples you can think of, you don't live in a collectivist type of society, and I have to say that I envy you. I've seen many instances where deciding together as groups can hinder individual ability to perform. It's a setting where everyone is afraid of contributing ideas for fear of offending anyone else, and the result is remaining in project limbo indefinitely. Come to think of it, Japan is a collectivist society as well.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Here, you are exactly right. And that's exactly the problem. I'm honestly a bit disturbed that you don't seem to see that.

The following is just simple common sense: It's best for leaders to truly care about those that they are entrusted with leading.

And that is a core reason why Sibyl is such a horrible system.

I'm looking at this issue from the perspective of a watchmaker speculating on how to make that watch more efficient in running. And a fresh new perspective, unbound by human values, is most certainly valuable. After all, where would modern day society be without the Renaissance? Or the Reformation? When it comes right down to it, such deviant ideas form the crux of human progress over the years. The proponents of such might not have been sociopaths, but I have little doubt that similar individuals would indeed become integrated into Sybil's system if given the chance.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

It's mere speculation at best. People who don't fit "mankind's conventional standards" can mean many things. Personally I took it to mean that Sibyl wants all the unique personalities it can get, because the more different people there are in the system, the greater expansion of thought the collective conscience Sibyl will have. Makishima is obviously interesting to them because Sibyl is unable to understand him. If he is added to the system, then Sibyl will gain more understanding of humanity.

That's why I compared Sibyl to a sort of "philosopher king." This collective conscience will possess more wisdom than any single human being.

I'm of this opinion as well, but it seems to me that people are finding issue with the idea that this collective conscience is only composed of sociopaths, even if we have little reason to believe such. Sybil is a mass of brains with a god complex, so it takes in only those minds that can broaden its scope and achieve perfection.

[zeando]

did anyone already mentioned this part?

Images

kasei's 'plug'

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

wonder if it was just the plug for recharging the body
or a data plug to communicate with sibyl,
or like others suggested, what is used to upload touma's personality in the body

i'm thinking of it as just a recharging plug, mostly because i've already got used to think touma's brain was in that body and died when shouma squished him

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That aside, you are definitely not wrong about it being a commentary on Japanese society. I keep saying Makishima is a champion of free will, but not necessarily justice. He is an agent of chaos, that does not value the group, but the expression of an individual's will. That's what I think makes this show meaningful.

This might be the best description of Makishima I have seen.

But here is a question. I agree with you that if the system is made up of just a bunch of psychopaths that is giving us a pretty black & white system where the system is bad and must be stopped.

But isn't Makishima giving you a bit of the gray you seek from the system. I still think Makishima is a criminal and a psychopath himself, and yet he is absolutely correct on the evils of this system.

[Triple_R]

Well, for what it helps, I can think of a logical reason for the Sibyl system being the way it is.

Perhaps the Sibyl system started as a purely mechanical thing. Then it encountered a Makishima. The mechanical system couldn't judge him. People were perplexed on how to deal with this.

Somebody (maybe even an old pro at detective work and/or fighting crime) made an offhand comment like "To understand a truly criminal mind, you need to have a criminal mind yourself. And machines just don't have that."

Somebody else found that profound, and was inspired to act on it. He took this touch of old-fashioned wisdom and put it through a cyberpunk meat-grinder... The result being that the system literally will use criminals minds to judge other criminal minds.

So "Makishima 1" was not executed, but rather forced into the system. His body was discarded, and all he was left with was a brain. It worked. The next sociopath could be judged, and was promptly killed.

But "Makishima 1" wasn't criminal enough to judge certain folks. So then they recruited "Makishima 2", and forced him into the Sibyl system.

And once this approach started snowballing, it became very hard to stop. It seemed to be working, so the scientists behind it just kept on adding more "Makishimas" into Sibyl as needed. At some point, perhaps those few scientists/government planners in the know trusted the system so much that they even fully automated it, leaving it totally at the discretion of the brains and their lone humanoid interface.


I would find the above a reasonably believable way for Sibyl being the way it is. And I'd even say that if this background story was told well, you could make the creators and tinkerers of the Sibyl system seem reasonably sympathetic. A touch short-sighted, perhaps, but understandably so.

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by CJ_Walker

I think a lot of people who miss out on this still want to think that a system like sybil is a good thing for society, when according to the creator of this story, is telling you otherwise, AND is using it as an allegory.

I don't really think people are missing out on anything. It's just (somewhat) disappointing if the only thing the writer(s) wanted was a 100% black and white villain which is a dime a dozen.
Plus, it's really no difference than people saying that Makishima is a "good" guy.

Anyway, I remember mentioning a long time back that Makishima was like a human version of Sibyl, or something near to that effect (and I think a few other people mentioned this, as well). Oh the irony.
Funny how both will kill you if you reject their ideals (though Sibyl only locks you up if you if you are within a certain limit, whereas Makishima always kills you).
EDIT:Sibyl kills you if you don't meet their ideals, Makishima leaves a trail of death upon disappointment.

Really, this show has turned into a underdog villain vs top dog villain, with everyone else caught in the cross fire.

Still wondering what's Akane's role is in this. If it's going to be similar to a certain other show, the system stays intact and she's going to end up being the mother brain to provide more leniency in the judgements...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, for what it helps, I can think of a logical reason for the Sibyl system being the way it is.

Perhaps the Sibyl system started as a purely mechanical thing. Then it encountered a Makishima. The mechanical system couldn't judge him. People were perplexed on how to deal with this.

According to Touma, even the factory worker (low hue, high CC) would have defeated a purely mechanical Sibyl.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by cyth

Where do you people find such flabbergasting "facts"?

From actually knowing my stuff (this time). Go study the matter, you'll see I'm right.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

According to Touma, even the factory worker (low hue, high CC) would have defeated a purely mechanical Sibyl.

I'd like to point out that given the circumstances, the factory worker almost defeated the Sibyl system


Though I suppose the brains recognition of needing to use Enforcers to hunt down criminals like that is a triumph of the system in a way...

[Dengar]

I'd like to point out that what happened at that factory doesn't really affect society much, which is what Sibyl is really protecting.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Your other mistake is the assumption that a psychopath can't follow logic when logic is in fact the only thing they follow.

This is what Wiki has to say about Psychopathy.

Nowhere there did I read that Psychopaths are absolutely incapable of acting illogically. In fact, I'm sure that Mr. Spock would consider certain items on those Psychopathy checklists to be signs of illogical thinking (such as "Lack of realistic, long-term goals" and "Failure to accept responsibility for own actions").

Let's not make psychopaths out to be vulcans here.

[kaemiko chan]

Watched it last night and still can't believe that Sybil System was so.... pathetic... and the behind the government and a such "peaceful society“ there were so much ingelligent brains but full of sin

I would expect that Akane to kill Makishima... but in that case she won't be Akane...so, long life the crimimals, as usual

Don't want Kogami to die.... please don't

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is what Wiki has to say about Psychopathy.

Nowhere there did I read that Psychopaths are absolutely incapable of acting illogically. In fact, I'm sure that Mr. Spock would consider certain items on those Psychopathy checklists to be signs of illogical thinking (such as "Lack of realistic, long-term goals" and "Failure to accept responsibility for own actions").

Let's not make psychopaths out to be vulcans here.

I wasn't trying to. In hindsight I may have exaggerated a little there. They do actually have emotions. But their actions -usually- follow some kind of logic. Usually some kind of logic that is rather static and determined at a much earlier point in their lives. Note that 'logic' is a relative thing that differs from person to person, so it doesn't even have to -resemble- Vulcan logic.

In case of Makishima, everything he does is basically to achieve his goal of becoming amused in a world which is literally made of boredom.

[CJ_Walker]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

I don't really think people are missing out on anything. It's just (somewhat) disappointing if the only thing the writer(s) wanted was a 100% black and white villain which is a dime a dozen.
Plus, it's really no difference than people saying that Makishima is a "good" guy.

Anyway, I remember mentioning a long time back that Makishima was like a human version of Sibyl, or something near to that effect (and I think a few other people mentioned this, as well). Oh the irony.
Funny how both will kill you if you reject their ideals (though Sibyl only locks you up if you if you are within a certain limit, whereas Makishima always kills you).
EDIT:Sibyl kills you if you don't meet their ideals, Makishima leaves a trail of death upon disappointment.

Really, this show has turned into a underdog villain vs top dog villain, with everyone else caught in the cross fire.

Still wondering what's Akane's role is in this. If it's going to be similar to a certain other show, the system stays intact and she's going to end up being the mother brain to provide more leniency in the judgements...

Yeah that kinda sums it up though, but when they mentioned the number of brains, it made me think that gen was equating the socialpathic brains in a ruling position to the politicians in the Japanese Diet (which if you've ever seen any footage of can get really really crazy) I got the feeling that the culture around sibil is a jab at Japanese social culture, with the icing on top as the socialpathic, corrupt politicians running the insane asylum.

Thing is, the politician allegory can be applied to a lot of other governments as well. (except maybe singapore. ..maybe.)

I'm actually surprised no one came out and said that yet. The Japanese culture comment, I don't really like to say, because it usually brings a lot of people into the discussion that don't know what they're talking about and/or some that do but want to deny a lot of things to everyone in sight. (so I'm not going to discuss that one aspect. . .just leaving it out there for people to think about)

but if you pay attention closely, and even rewatch certain episodes, you can probably see that he's using this story to talk about more than a sibil type system structure with all its flaws or improvements to society, and a possible makishima. The show is a lot deeper than that. . .which is why I like it and can dismiss plot holes like the lack of security that has been talked about.

In a lesser show done by someone who is not trying to send a subtle message (i.e. Robotics Notes) I would be all over "dem plot holes" (but a friend of mine did it for me heh.)


P.S. I hope gen doesn't make Akane go that route.

Happy ending for Akane please gen? Ok?

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I wasn't trying to. In hindsight I may have exaggerated a little there. They do actually have emotions. But their actions -usually- follow some kind of logic. Usually some kind of logic that is rather static and determined at a much earlier point in their lives. Note that 'logic' is a relative thing that differs from person to person, so it doesn't even have to -resemble- Vulcan logic.

In case of Makishima, everything he does is basically to achieve his goal of becoming amused in a world which is literally made of boredom.

I think we need to realize that nowhere in DSM-IV-TR does it state that psychopathy aka Antisocial Personality Disorder actually requires dissociation from logical capacity.

In fact the diagnosis for APD/Psychopathy shows that "psychosis" or to a less medically correct term "insanity" is not a requirement. Personality disorders are highlighted by the fact that the person does suffer episodic "breaks" from consistent state of function. One of the highlights of APD is lack of empathy and... let's face it I have NOT YET seen any evidence that Makishima is actually incapable of empathy. A psychopath/APD sufferer does everything for personal gain and not for anyone else.

In fact it would seem that he's actually doing it for society at large. He seems genuinely concerned and maybe even empathetic to humanity's state of existence. His actions and plans are very, very morally questionable, but his intentions are being presented as somewhat altruistic. He's not simple doing this for himself, he's doing this for everyone, just in his own twisted and violent way, but he seems to have society's best interest at heart.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but strictly speaking by DSM terms he's less likely to be a true psychopath.

[cyth]

@MeoTwister5: I am inclined to agree with you on Makishima. After witnessing the state of populace, probably everyone who's watched the show thought to himself "wow, what a bunch of sheep." This is why I think this discussion needs to evaluate the populace and the characters in terms of human, inhuman, animal and beast. The introduction of artificial intelligence in sci-fi literature was to examine the state of the fabric of human soul, and I think the sentiments in Psycho-pass seem to be that humans have regressed into an animal-like state. The killing of Akane's friend felt much more like stock slaughter than a murder. It was one of those "let's kill a kitten because it's a dumb animal" type of moments. There are more evidence for this type of worldview: latent criminals under the Investigation Bureau are referred to as dogs, then the Senguji arc was all about animality.

Going by what you suggest, it's hard to characterize Makishima as either human or beast. Akane is 100% human, whereas with other enforcers and supervisors it is not so clear what they are, but I think they hardly qualify as animals. In any case, it's useless to talk about psychopathy here without thinking about things like postmodernity in Japan and how that mentality has changed the identity of a human being. Makishima indeed concerns himself with that problem.

[Triple_R]

Actually, I think there's plenty of evidence that Makishima lacks empathy.

That evidence is the fact that he's a major character in this show and we have yet to see him show the slightest amount of real, true caring for anybody.

He discards his "friends" with contempt, and contemptuous ease.

To the degree that he is friendly and complimentary to other people, it's only because they become "an interest" to him. He doesn't truly care about them. In fact, if he finds you to be "an interest", it basically means he's almost certainly going to try to kill you at some point.

Even with Guseong, I felt that Makishima simply had some respect for him and viewed him as a valuable ally. To a certain extent, Makishima was just using him. I doubt Makishima is crying many tears over his passing.


Look, this isn't even remotely normal. Very few people are islands unto themselves like this. Most people need, or at least want, to truly care about someone. Who does Makishima care about? Who's death would bring him sadness? Why, I even find it hard to imagine a Makishima in mourning. That's how out of character it would be for him.


Plus, this is what the Director said to Makishima when "she" tried to recruit him...

"The first qualification to be a constituent member of the Sibyl System is to have an irregular personality that doesn't fit in with mankind's conventional standards. Without aimlessly empathizing with others, without being lost to emotion, you should be able to oversee human actions from an outsider's viewpoint. Such talent is desired."

That's not exactly the same as saying "zero empathy, no emotion", but it does lean in that direction.


Makishima cares about society in a general sense because he doesn't want to live in a society of sheeple since then society will be "less interesting" to him (i.e. more sheeple = fewer "interesting" people). I have serious doubts that altruism informs his decision-making whatsoever.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Just watched the latest episode. Now that I know what Sybil system is, I really want Judge Dredd to come and clean up the city.

Dredd: “A society governed by psychopathic brains in boxes? Screw this system! Sybil’s NOT the law!! I AM THE LAW!!!”

*aiming at Sybil* *guns blazin’*

“Now I’ll patrol the city day in & day out in my fancy motorbike to show people that I can serve justice better than this fucked up system.”

*vroom vroom*.............

Akane & co + Makishima: -_-;

*sunset*

THE END

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Just watched the latest episode. Now that I know what Sybil system is, I really want Judge Dredd to come and clean up the city.

Dredd: “A society governed by psychopathic brains in boxes? Screw this system! Sybil’s NOT the law!! I AM THE LAW!!!”

*aiming at Sybil* *guns blazin’*

“Now I’ll patrol the city day in & day out in my fancy motorbike to show people that I can serve justice better than this fucked up system.”

*vroom vroom*.............

Akane & co + Makishima: -_-;

*sunset*

THE END

That would be totally awesome!

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Just watched the latest episode. Now that I know what Sybil system is, I really want Judge Dredd to come and clean up the city.

Dredd: “A society governed by psychopathic brains in boxes? Screw this system! Sybil’s NOT the law!! I AM THE LAW!!!”

*aiming at Sybil* *guns blazin’*

“Now I’ll patrol the city day in & day out in my fancy motorbike to show people that I can serve justice better than this fucked up system.”

*vroom vroom*.............

Akane & co + Makishima: -_-;

*sunset*

THE END

LOVE IT!

YouTube

https://youtu.be/7Rr6nJk9Zb4

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