[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[crazysjd89]

Spoiler for New theory on what Ange saw and Sakutarou:

This is a theory I made, while thinking of a way to clear Rosa. I'm one of the few people who still likes Rosa after Episode 4. In a way, you could say this is my theory after looking at Rosa with "love".

What if Sakutarou was never broken?

Allow me to start from after Ange denied everyone in Lucia academy. It shows Maria cursing Ange.

Now, from the perspective of this not being magic, 6 year old (or younger) Ange probably did something that Maria didn't like. When is a time Maria and Ange meet up? At the family conference. And so that would link Maria and Ange meeting up on the captain's boat.

Now then, Maria's anger had something to do with Ange and Sakutarou. So then, with there we can assume Maria toke Sakutarou to the family conference, and showed him to Ange. Now then, what if Maria actually lost Sakutarou on the boat?

As witnessed in Episode 4, Maria can suddenly lose things (her house key), and as witnessed in Episode 1 and 4, she will stubbornly look for them, and have a guilt complex, thinking she lost them. Therefore, I do not think Maria could handle having lost Sakutarou. Therefore, for awhile, Maria had kept up the "magic" of having Sakutarou in human form, without his vessel.

Now allow me to string two more things together. In Episode 4, Maria is shown waking up after killing Rosa multiple times. From this perspective, you would think Maria was having a dream where she gets revenge on Rosa for killing Sakutarou. In other words, Maria is prone to vivid dreams, and is emotional, a lot like Rosa is. Also, Sakutarou seems to balance out Maria's pessimism towards her mother. Before Sakutarou, Maria would always get upset if her mother did something without her. However, Sakutarou balanced those feelings, such as convincing Maria that Rosa was really at work. In other words, I think it's possible this dream over exaggerated Rosa being terrible.

I'll string that together with this. Maria was forced to talk with a police officer, and now aside from subconciously knowing she lost Sakutarou, she broke one of the biggest taboo Rosa gave her.

Now as for the part where Rosa "killed" Sakutarou. What if that all was a dream, from the guilt of breaking a rule, and from not being able to bear losing Sakutarou. So instead, she used "black magic" and pushed the blame on Rosa. Not only that, but Rosa was getting very violent, yet all the child officer did was tell Rosa to calm down. There was no action taken, and Maria was not taken from Rosa's custody.

And finally, to string this to Ange.

The captain found Sakutarou on his boat, and believed someone had lost it. He toke it to his home until someone came to get it, however, no one came. Then when Ange saw it, she remembered the day Maria introduced her to Sakutarou and remembered that Maria had lost him.

Originally Posted by SeventhHS

This is filler text so please don't read it. It is random.
I don't really understand English but it's cool huh? Kind of awesome.

Thanks for translating that, I've been wondering what it said.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

Or, and this is kind of morbid, they weren't expecting to survive. If they were paid off to make the murders look like a bizarre ritual (if indeed, as I've theorized, Nanjo is the one doing stakings, possibly with Kumasawa's help), it could be that the final step in that was to perish themselves. If whatever kills anyone who survives who is not at Kuwadorian is known to them, they'd perhaps realize there was a very slim prospect of survival. Granted, Nanjo and Kumasawa know about Kuwadorian (and have clearly been there), and if Nanjo was trying to lead people there, he must have suspected it was safe. Since Eva survived ep3 and was found alive in Kuwadorian, whatever happens must not affect that mansion.

So I guess you could say it's a contingency. If they survive, they get off the island and a letter arrives later with their payoff. If they don't, their children get the payoff instead. Unsurprisingly, Dr. Nanjo the younger was smart enough to realize this wasn't good money... Main problem here is that Ange remembers getting a letter too, although that could've been a payoff to her grandfather for something (making Ange sick?).

Alternately, it's not a payoff, but compensation to "innocent" parties. Someone knew they'd have to kill Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Rudolf's family (even though they didn't want to), so they sent them money to somehow make up for it.

I'm also contemplating the possibility that they are even ready to die themselves. However I can't Imagine why would they. I don't quite believe in the furniture complex or anyway that might work for Genji maybe, but not for Gohda or Kumasawa who don't even bear the ushiromiya's crest. I imagined they might have been introduced to some sort of cult, but meh... I don't like that much either. The half assed reproduction of the epitaph sarifices makes me think it is all a facade to trick Battler into believing in witches.

In ep4 we got an important hint leading us to realize that Kumasawa tried to solve the epitaph, and both Shannon and Kanon are wishing to reach the golden land. Could this mean that they aim for the gold?

As for the letters you are right, why Ange should receive it? A money compensation for the only heir of the vast Ushiromiya's wealth? That doesn't make sense... Besides... Nanjo's son said there were like 20 of those safes. That's even more than the people in the island at the time of the "incident".

Originally Posted by Ikth7

Yes, it was on George's door. I'm not sure why it was there either, but it gave Eva the chance to write it down. So we can be sure that she has access to the number. However, you need the number and a key to open anything so unless she received keys as well she couldn't open anything. That makes me wonder even more why anyone would bother to put it on the door. Even if they figured out what it was they couldn't make use of it unless they were sent a letter with a key, and that letter would have the number in it as well. Why put it on the door if you're just going to mail it to them later?

Yet another thing that doesn't make sense. I suppose it's just the witch teasing (us) the remaining. Or maybe she wanted Battler to recognize his birthday. Like a message: "this bank account code is based on your birthday, Battler". Someone speculated that 11:29 might be the exact time of Battler's birth which Battler himself doesn't remind. This might lead to the possibility that the culprit is Battler's real mother.

Originally Posted by SeventhHS

Just a bit of fun here. I was bored so my friends told me to translate this image:

Spoiler:

Guidance System Version 07

Firing Guidance System Startup
Good morning.
Welcome to the firing guidance system.

Commence Data Accumulation...
Now scanning. Gathering data.
Forgive me. The missile cannot hit here.

Formulating Firing Curve...
Now calculating firing curve. Will definitely calculate a curve.
This is filler text so please don't read it. It is random.
I don't really understand English but it's cool huh? Kind of awesome.

Firing Prepartations Complete
Firing preparations complete. After this the shot will hit.
Measurements are flawless. Nothing to worry about. It's totally automatic.

Accuracy 97.89%
...is a number which certainly hits. (?)

Perhaps Witch Hunt should include an edited graphic in their next patch for those unfortunate souls among us who cannot read Japanese written in Greek alphabet.

Ha ha ha! Fantastic! I didn't realize it was japanese written with greek characters.

Originally Posted by crazysjd89

Spoiler for New theory on what Ange saw and Sakutarou:

This is a theory I made, while thinking of a way to clear Rosa. I'm one of the few people who still likes Rosa after Episode 4. In a way, you could say this is my theory after looking at Rosa with "love".

What if Sakutarou was never broken?

Allow me to start from after Ange denied everyone in Lucia academy. It shows Maria cursing Ange.

Now, from the perspective of this not being magic, 6 year old (or younger) Ange probably did something that Maria didn't like. When is a time Maria and Ange meet up? At the family conference. And so that would link Maria and Ange meeting up on the captain's boat.

Now then, Maria's anger had something to do with Ange and Sakutarou. So then, with there we can assume Maria toke Sakutarou to the family conference, and showed him to Ange. Now then, what if Maria actually lost Sakutarou on the boat?

As witnessed in Episode 4, Maria can suddenly lose things (her house key), and as witnessed in Episode 1 and 4, she will stubbornly look for them, and have a guilt complex, thinking she lost them. Therefore, I do not think Maria could handle having lost Sakutarou. Therefore, for awhile, Maria had kept up the "magic" of having Sakutarou in human form, without his vessel.

Now allow me to string two more things together. In Episode 4, Maria is shown waking up after killing Rosa multiple times. From this perspective, you would think Maria was having a dream where she gets revenge on Rosa for killing Sakutarou. In other words, Maria is prone to vivid dreams, and is emotional, a lot like Rosa is. Also, Sakutarou seems to balance out Maria's pessimism towards her mother. Before Sakutarou, Maria would always get upset if her mother did something without her. However, Sakutarou balanced those feelings, such as convincing Maria that Rosa was really at work. In other words, I think it's possible this dream over exaggerated Rosa being terrible.

I'll string that together with this. Maria was forced to talk with a police officer, and now aside from subconciously knowing she lost Sakutarou, she broke one of the biggest taboo Rosa gave her.

Now as for the part where Rosa "killed" Sakutarou. What if that all was a dream, from the guilt of breaking a rule, and from not being able to bear losing Sakutarou. So instead, she used "black magic" and pushed the blame on Rosa. Not only that, but Rosa was getting very violent, yet all the child officer did was tell Rosa to calm down. There was no action taken, and Maria was not taken from Rosa's custody.

And finally, to string this to Ange.

The captain found Sakutarou on his boat, and believed someone had lost it. He toke it to his home until someone came to get it, however, no one came. Then when Ange saw it, she remembered the day Maria introduced her to Sakutarou and remembered that Maria had lost him.

That's an interesting theory, however there's something I don't understand. Is the Captain so stupid to never realize that the plush was lost by one of the Ushiromiya's kid? Don't forget that he is the one that brings Jessica to school every day, so why he never said anything? Then again maybe Jessica didn't know anything about it, but how could she not realize it was probably Maria's plush? She could have called her or something.

[Kitsu]

I'm also contemplating the possibility that they are even ready to die themselves. However I can't Imagine why would they. I don't quite believe in the furniture complex or anyway that might work for Genji maybe, but not for Gohda or Kumasawa who don't even bear the ushiromiya's crest. I imagined they might have been introduced to some sort of cult, but meh... I don't like that much either. The half assed reproduction of the epitaph sarifices makes me think it is all a facade to trick Battler into believing in witches.

In ep4 we got an important hint leading us to realize that Kumasawa tried to solve the epitaph, and both Shannon and Kanon are wishing to reach the golden land. Could this mean that they aim for the gold?

As for the letters you are right, why Ange should receive it? A money compensation for the only heir of the vast Ushiromiya's wealth? That doesn't make sense... Besides... Nanjo's son said there were like 20 of those safes. That's even more than the people in the island at the time of the "incident".

Kumasawa has more then one son. And now imagine, Kanon and Shannon must have someone has a guardian they are no adults yet. Then there are all the other servants. They lose their job. I bet they got one, too. Also...it was a way to get rid of the dirty money Kinzo must have made without anyone noticing it. Also maybe to calm a bad consience.
Kanon and Shannon are behind the gold...maybe but it just doesn't seemr right. For me they just seem to want to quit everything and have a easy life with their loved ones of course.

Yet another thing that doesn't make sense. I suppose it's just the witch teasing (us) the remaining. Or maybe she wanted Battler to recognize his birthday. Like a message: "this bank account code is based on your birthday, Battler". Someone speculated that 11:29 might be the exact time of Battler's birth which Battler himself doesn't remind. This might lead to the possibility that the culprit is Battler's real mother.

Could be true...but why using something which could bite in the ass later on.

That's an interesting theory, however there's something I don't understand. Is the Captain so stupid to never realize that the plush was lost by one of the Ushiromiya's kid? Don't forget that he is the one that brings Jessica to school every day, so why he never said anything? Then again maybe Jessica didn't know anything about it, but how could she not realize it was probably Maria's plush? She could have called her or something.

Did Jessica even know of the plush? I bet Rosa forbid Maria to take it to the family conference since it was childish and the siblings would have laughed about Maria and Rosa.
So maybe MAria took Sakutaro in sercret and then lost it.

Back to your post two sites behind.
SHannon=Gaap
Whoa! I thoguht the same...manly because of the place of her fight with George. Also because Shannon was theone who called him there.

But you left Kanon out. You compared all of the servants with one demon/witch/supernatural being except him.


Then you said the seven stakes and the siesta were weapons only...bu what if they also represent people? Battler said if that would go one...there would be almost more supernaturals then humans on the island. Until now there 15 supernatural beings on Rokkenjima and if you exclude Battler and Maria (who has her own "witch side")
...
See my point?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Did Jessica even know of the plush? I bet Rosa forbid Maria to take it to the family conference since it was childish and the siblings would have laughed about Maria and Rosa.
So maybe MAria took Sakutaro in sercret and then lost it.

Back to your post two sites behind.
SHannon=Gaap
Whoa! I thoguht the same...manly because of the place of her fight with George. Also because Shannon was theone who called him there.

But you left Kanon out. You compared all of the servants with one demon/witch/supernatural being except him.


Then you said the seven stakes and the siesta were weapons only...bu what if they also represent people? Battler said if that would go one...there would be almost more supernaturals then humans on the island. Until now there 15 supernatural beings on Rokkenjima and if you exclude Battler and Maria (who has her own "witch side")
...
See my point?

Jessica probably doesn't know about it, but I think she could image it was Maria's. If you find a plush in the only boat that goes to Rokkenjima soon after a family conference... well I think you would imagine something like that. I don't know how many people that captain used to carry around on his boat but he must have been pretty busy with Jessica and Kinzo's servants (I imagine that Krauss and Natsuhi use their personal boat).

Most people think Gaap represents Jessica, but I'm not satisfied with this theory. It is very hard to reach a definitive conclusion because despite Ronove and Virgilia there isn't any clear hint. Some speculated that the fancy dress would point to Jessica, but the same can apply to Shannon since she does have a very provocative maid uniform.

as for Kanon he is a mystery. I have three different theories about him in my mind:

Shannon=Kanon
(Fake)Beatrice=Kanon
Kanon doesn't exist
Kanon is just Kanon

Anyway it is possible that a demon based on Kanon will be shown in ep5. So it is not necessary to have a magic counterpart right now, we know that Gaap only appeared on ep4 and virgilia and ronove only since ep3.


About 7sisters and siestas I'm not 100% sure they only represent weapons, but I tend to believe this is the case. If not, it's been speculated that the seven sisters represent the 7 adults. It is easy to associate the 7 adults to a particular sin (although ep4 gave me some perplexities about Rosa. I always thought she was wrath, but Beatrice said her sin is luxury).
Then I can speculate that the bunny girls represent the 4 children, but number apart I can't see many correlations...

With those only Nanjo and Kanon would be left out.

[momobunny]

I thought Beatrice said that Rosa's sin was lust...

[Kitsu]

@Maho_Momo
Can't remember clearly but could be the case since I still remember oh so clearly that Rosa seemed to have slept with various men or wanted to at least adn havin various boyfriends

@Jan-Poo
I think letting the stakes represent the adults may be a bit to easy but well... back in EP 2 I though
Kanon=Wrath (cause he was stake'd two times with it)
Jessica=Lust (Jessica "I also want to fall in love" Asmodus Tips "Wants´to fall in love even ready to die for it or somehthing
BUt now seeing Ep4 Lust would fit Rosa perfectly.
Letting the siestas represent the children if you execlude Maria..would fit...a little bit. BEcause I always thought the magic scenes seemed to be the explanation Maria thought up because she was to young t understand and didn't want her family and the fun servants to be murder so in her mind it was all "magic" EP4 underlined that theory a little bit. And the siestas...god they underline it badly. And letting the siestas represent the cousins seems to fit since MAria likes the siestas

Kanon=Shannon isn't possible anymore since

The only person who can claim his name, is the person itself so
Shannon=Kanon (which is a difference) is possible
Still I even once though
Ronove=Kanon
or maybe
Kanon is just himslef like oyu said

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Then I can speculate that the bunny girls represent the 4 children, but number apart I can't see many correlations...

After reading the tips, is there still any doubt about the ID of the bunny girls?

[MeoTwister5]

If anything, the Siestas are more symbolic of a projectile weapon, and the program words they describe are akin to what goes through the mind of a professional sniper actually...

Of course that's just me speculating, considering that they did use their beams to strangle some of their victims, but then again it isn't too far fetched as strangulation wire is used by special forces, who in turn would be handy with a long ranged weapon.

And that brings us back to the first person described to have such credentials. I won't expound on this idea right now as I really need to progress a little more in the game.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

I thought Beatrice said that Rosa's sin was lust...

Sorry that was a mistake, I meant to say "Lust".

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

After reading the tips, is there still any doubt about the ID of the bunny girls?

You mean Maria's bunnies? That is well accepted, however we are speculating that they might also represent human beings

[TheForsaken]

Here is my theory, sorry if my English is bad

Spoiler for My crazy theory:

I've read a post above that maybe a natural disaster happens in the end and kills everyone. And that's the base for my theory.

Well, just imagine that a disaster will happen for sure at the end of October 5th and everyone is trapped in the island because of the typhoon. In short, they can't escape, they are doomed to die. So what can save them? The "Golden Land" - I think that is some sort of secret shelter that can protect them from the disaster. (that's why Shanon wants to go there with George, she wants to survive with him) And Beatrice - the mastermind of everything - is the only one know where it is/how to open it/etc. With that reason only she can order anyone to do anything. Obey me, or die, just simply like that.

Now come to the "13 sacrifices". What if that's not the case? What if that's not "13 must to die", but "only 5 can live". I mean, what if that shelter has very limited capacity, and it can only hold up to 5 people. If the fact about the disaster and only "5 can be saved" is leaked out, then it will become a survival game and anyone tries to kill anyone to save his own life (and his family/loved one)

So my theory is there is a group of 5 criminals, the mastermind and 4 accomplices. The accomplies are forced to obey the mastermind because of the reason above. Their object is to kill 12 other people (Kinzou doesnt count for obvious reason) in order to survive. Of course the mastermind has her own plan, her object is to revenge the Uroshimiya (and has something to do with Battler). She only use the accomplices and wont hesitate to kill them off if necessary, she will kill everyone in the end anyway.

Her plan is to leak the information about the disaster and the shelter to the siblings in the night of October 4th, she want them to kill each others.

In EP1 and EP2, the siblings discussed all night for that matter, finally they got tired and went to bed. In the night the mastermind and her accomplies killed 6 random people in the mansion. Why six? She wants to follow the epitagh. Why random? Who are killed doesnt matter, they will all die in the end anyway. Battler is not in the mansion, so he won't be harmed (for now at least).

Next morning, when 6 corpses were found, it was a big "WTF" to the siblings. They linked it to the disaster/shelter problem, then suspious of each others and killed each others. The next murders were totally random , that's what the mastermind wants, the Uroshimiya kill themselves. All she had to do is stab the stakes to the corpses (I doubt that anyone was truly killed by the stakes) Of course there will be a risk that the mastermind will be killed too, but I think she doesn't mind.

So who are those 5 criminals anyway ? I think they are:
- Ronove - Genji
- Gaap - Shanon
- Virgilia - Kurasawa
- Goathead - Gohda
And:
- Beatrice - I think that's Kanon

The most troublesome among them is Shanon. Follow the plan, all but those 5 will die, but Shanon doesn't want George to die. So she will betray them at some point. I think that's the reason why Shanon was killed in ep 1, Gohda's death was fake.

Now to ep 3, as I said before, the accomplices were forced to obey the mastermind. And I can't say that the idea of leaking the information to the siblings is clever idea. So they rebeled against her, and they killed each others. The siblings never knew about the disaster (if they know, Eva will not have the mood to try to find the gold) Later, Eva solved the riddle, found the gold, and accidently found the shelter too. She learnt about the disaster, and that's why the killing continued.

In ep 4, the siblings knew about the disaster and discussed about it like ep 1&2. But it didn't end peacefully like that, because of some triggers they took the guns and shot at each others. The mansion turned into the battlefield. That's why everyone died right in the first night.

How do you guys think about this ?

[MeoTwister5]

I should also add that what has surprised be thus far in episode 4, much more than Ange's story, is that based on her diary Maria's actually a very mature and strong-willed person, a real far cry to how she was presented in previous episodes. I'm actually having to change my opinion of her.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by SeventhHS

Just a bit of fun here. I was bored so my friends told me to translate this image:

Spoiler:

Guidance System Version 07

Firing Guidance System Startup
Good morning.
Welcome to the firing guidance system.

Commence Data Accumulation...
Now scanning. Gathering data.
Forgive me. The missile cannot hit here.

Formulating Firing Curve...
Now calculating firing curve. Will definitely calculate a curve.
This is filler text so please don't read it. It is random.
I don't really understand English but it's cool huh? Kind of awesome.

Firing Prepartations Complete
Firing preparations complete. After this the shot will hit.
Measurements are flawless. Nothing to worry about. It's totally automatic.

Accuracy 97.89%
...is a number which certainly hits. (?)

Perhaps Witch Hunt should include an edited graphic in their next patch for those unfortunate souls among us who cannot read Japanese written in Greek alphabet.

Heh, when I saw this post, I thought you were messing with us, but when I actually tried it, it worked. Well, it'd be rude to Ryuukishi and the players to solve this little puzzle of his right in the picture, but we might was well add it to the doc Grimoire.

Thanks a lot for the tip!

Spoiler for my translation, with help from the Japanese wiki:

Guidance System Version 07

Firing Guidance System Startup
Good morning.
Welcome to the Firing Guidance System.

Commence Data Accumulation...
Now scanning. Gathering data.
Don't shake it. If we screw up now, it won't hit.

Formulating Firing Curve...
Formulating Firing Curve. Forming as a Bezier curve.
This is filler, so please don't read it, okay? It's random.
All this English that I don't really understand sure is cool. Pretty awesome.

Firing Preparations Complete
Firing Preparations Complete. If we shoot now, it'll hit.
...Assuming that the measurements are correct. Are we really good to go? It's totally automatic.

Accuracy 97.89%
A number that will almost certainly hit.

[Klashikari]

I'm not even sure if I could put the translation without screwing up the lisibility of it.
Replacing the Japanese text with the English you could see was a bit funky (size and position wise), but it is kinda small for the second part.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, it'd be rude to Ryuukishi and the players to solve this little puzzle of his right in the picture

Wait..... Wut

[Klashikari]

Since it wasn't really possible for the Japanese to understand the greek message on their own (without proper research), translating and putting it right off the bat wouldn't give the same approach either for the english community, so I assume this is the reason why chrono only wants the actual japanese text to be translatere here.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I'm not even sure if I could put the translation without screwing up the lisibility of it.
Replacing the Japanese text with the English you could see was a bit funky (size and position wise), but it is kinda small for the second part.

Nah that text is not meat to be understood at first glance so I think it's okay to leave it as it is and add a translation in the grimoire doc. It doesn't even use the right phonetics since it uses the "eta" in place of the "h", the "omega" in place of the "v" and the "psi" in place of the "y". He just used a direct conversion from romaji to greek characters

[Proto]

Since it wasn't really possible for the Japanese to understand the greek message on their own (without proper research), translating and putting it right off the bat wouldn't give the same approach either for the english community, so I assume this is the reason why chrono only wants the actual japanese text to be translatere here.

You can always translate it into English and encode it again with the Greek alphabet

[Jan-Poo]

It's a lot easier to understand it that way. Use windings instead XD

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's an interesting theory, however there's something I don't understand. Is the Captain so stupid to never realize that the plush was lost by one of the Ushiromiya's kid? Don't forget that he is the one that brings Jessica to school every day, so why he never said anything? Then again maybe Jessica didn't know anything about it, but how could she not realize it was probably Maria's plush? She could have called her or something.

Well, I was assuming he chartered more people than just the Ushiromiya.

However, assuming he only does so with the Ushiromiya children, then it's just the same. He kept it with the intention of giving it to Maria, but after a year, he had forgotten about it.

[SeventhHS]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Heh, when I saw this post, I thought you were messing with us, but when I actually tried it, it worked. Well, it'd be rude to Ryuukishi and the players to solve this little puzzle of his right in the picture, but we might was well add it to the doc Grimoire.

Thanks a lot for the tip!

Ah, thank you as well. My translation was pretty flaky due to not quite figuring out properly which romaji letters became which greek letters... 'zehi' was somehow my best guess for βεφε, and so forth.

I was joking about editing it, so you don't have to add it to the grimoire if you don't want to, either. If it's just a hint, it might be a letdown to entice people to solve the mystery themselves for the sake of two amusing and thoroughly pointless filler lines. >_>