2012-02-28, 21:02 | Link #27982 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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You're not even asking the correct question... Its like, accepting something that obviously can be a trick as a trick, or still believe in it being magic, resulting in two different endings. The one real difference between the two endings, is that in the "trick" ending, Ange doesn't do the simple assumption that Battler did from the start : you can't prove a world fact (in Battler's case, that magic doesn't exist anywhere). In Ange's situation, its the truth about Prime. The existence of magic and the truth of that day are interchangible endlessly as things that cannot be proven nor disproven. |
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2012-02-28, 21:07 | Link #27983 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-02-28, 21:20 | Link #27984 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Kanon's memories doesn't basically lead to being Beatrice (in term of complexes and obcession with Battler). Shannon's memories does. The later thus "serves a clear purpose in the sequence of events" and thus might be more doubtful, yeah. This is however redefining most things known in Umineko. I don't mind that at all, but I'd love some elaboration on the idea. One thing for it is the argument that Hachijou is basically Ryuukishi's avatar. |
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2012-02-28, 21:20 | Link #27985 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Audiophile
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 31
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Just woke up and your comments made my morning! Time for some responses.
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I still think after rewatching this scene that Wanderer's "Murder Game gone wrong, with Battler being the first to snap" sounds more appropriate. It accounts for Yasu's "sin" and Ange's reaction. Quote:
Of course, Ikuko being Yasu is a beautiful ending and more filled with love than my previous interpretation so I love the concept. If only Ikuko didn't look so much like Featherine, I would probably agree with you. It's just that she looks too much like Featherine and that puts me off the idea. Quote:
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The question is, when exactly did Lambdadelta lift Yasu up into the Meta World and start the Game? Looking at the epilogue, it's likely sometime before October 6, since Beatrice about to escape with Battler says she she has been responsible for the killing of the family in my different Worlds. However, it's not at all weird to say that the Game was created after the events of October 4 and 5. Thus, she would know that Battler would come that day, and that Ange has a stomach ache. Quote:
When the expressions of the characters became demented, the first thing that went through my head was: "OK…DEEN, how are you going to explain this terrible animation this time? Are you going to say that the Hinamizawa Syndrome is affecting everyone on this island as well?" I still think it's ingenious how they pretty much accounted for all the bad animation in Higurashi by saying "Oh it was all the Hinamizawa Syndrome! It's not bad animation! We did it on purpose!". Now that I've finished Umineko, I…don't think they can get away with it this time. :P But yeah, I guess you can push it that way, although it's definitely not as strong as Higurashi when it comes to the vibe, after all, it's the freaking Hinamizawa Syndrome! Quote:
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OK, I can accept this. Although I still think Yasu is crazy. Quote:
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I don't know…it just doesn't really sound right. Battler was never delusional in the series except after he lost his memories and became Tohya. Quote:
Featherine is NOT someone Yasu dreamt up. She is one of the most powerful witch in existence, and the fact that Yasu decides to disguise himself/herself to like her upon arriving to the mainland is just completely weird. Also, every time Ikuko talks with Ange, they flip between RL and Meta World, and Featherine is always there in Ikuko's place. How can this be explained? Of course, Wanderer and Tazar, feel free to explain this question's answer to me. I feel that's the last rock I have to climb over before accepting this theory. Quote:
I'm just getting this straight, you think that in episode 6 the "Toya Hachijou" that Ange meets isn't Ikuko, but someone completely different? Isn't Toya Hachijou the Pen Name for Battler and Ikuko, with Ikuko being the public figure? That's what I've always thought after reading the novels. That's a pretty bold concept. Is there proof for this? Because I've always assumed that it was Ikuko meeting with Ange the entire time, under the pen name of Toya. Battler was probably chilling at home during all of episode 6 while Ikuko is meeting with Ange. Ange doesn't meet with Toya/Battler until the ???? ending of episode 8. Quote:
But still, that doesn't explain why Ange would hide the truth so much after he learnt of it. If George is the culprit…then so what? Why does she have to reject it? Why does she say that she'd rather Eva-obasan to be the culprit? Fair enough. Quote:
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And seriously, why are we using the name "Toya"? It's so confusing because we don't know if you're referring to Ikuko under her public pen name, or just Battler after losing his memories. Quote:
Yeah, that's really, really strange. I don't know why Ange IRL didn't recognize Ikuko after already meeting her in episode 6. What happened to Meta-Ange? |
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2012-02-28, 21:32 | Link #27986 | |||||||
The True Culprit
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I just literally don't think the scene ever happened. Maybe Battler took a boat, but it's unlikely Beatrice ever went with her. The whole scene opens up practically word for word the same as Kinzo's and Bice's leaving of the island. Quote:
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2012-02-28, 21:33 | Link #27987 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Hacijou Tohya is the penname of both Tohya and Ikuko. The public doesn't know the truth about Hachijou Tohya, and they only ever had two public appearance: First : Some guy (maybe Tohya) doing an autograph session previously, while wearing shades, making everyone believe it was Hachijou Tohya. Second : Ikuko's appearance in the fake revealing of Eva's diary (lol.... why would she even have that to begin with?). Tohya is the name of Tohya, and refers to him. Ikuko is how we refer to Hachijou Ikuko (or simply Hachijou) as this is her name. Before Ange's meeting with Hachijou in arc 6 (likely as a result of Tohya refusing to see Ange, and her still wanting to give Ange the information she would've gotten from them outside of Battler's life/death status), no one ever thought "Tohya" was Ikuko. Basically this is more of a trick on us readers then a trick that Ikuko herself really used. |
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2012-02-28, 21:53 | Link #27988 | ||
Audiophile
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 31
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I still think Ange's reactions are just too strong for something like an accident of the type you mentioned though. I mean, it's pretty apparent that even at the end of episode 7 where Bernkastel shows her "the truth" of her family being the real culprits, she didn't go as far as attempt suicide right away or snap right there like she did when she found the Truth in episode 8. As mentioned, yes, she got over it within a few minutes, but that was still quite an extreme reaction. Quote:
With the Yasu=Ikuko theory, we're saying that the person who looks like Hachijou Ikuko that met with Ange in episode 6 is just Featherine taking a human form, and Ange thought that this person was the real "Hachijou Tohya"? Although the epilogue in Episode 8 implies that Ange never met Hachijou Ikuko before. This is just all really confusing... |
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2012-02-28, 22:05 | Link #27989 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Who else but the original creator can declare something like "that Beatrice will never be revived again"?
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2012-02-28, 22:13 | Link #27990 | |
Audiophile
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Age: 31
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If you believe in the existence of "real" magic however, you have to think of it the other way around and it doesn't make much sense. And I do believe that real magic exists as in my previous comment from the last page. And since Featherine is a witch, sure she can use Red. |
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2012-02-28, 22:42 | Link #27991 | ||
The True Culprit
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To be fair, Ange's kind of overdramatic. Just look at how she acted in school, or how she makes a habit of jumping off buildings, or how she turns into hamburger whenever she gets sad.
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2012-02-28, 23:27 | Link #27992 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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At any rate, if you start from the premise that Ikuko/Featherine is a magical witch, you still have the parts where Ikuko claims to be the author of the games, making Beato at least partially her character. There's also the Our Confession booklet, which showed Beato having pretty much all of the attitudes Ikuko/Featherine expresses about her writing and readers in EP6. You end up with Featherine creating Meta-Beatrice or using her as a piece, which is functionally equivalent to Ikuko authoring her. On the other hand, the arguments for the last link of Ikuko=Yasu are based on things like information availability for writing Beato and the oddities in Ikuko's behavior. If you say "no problem, it's because Ikuko's a witch" then naturally none of those arguments are going to work no matter what you do. No, she does it at least once while talking to a publisher in EP8.
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2012-02-28, 23:36 | Link #27993 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-02-29, 01:02 | Link #27994 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Not much... unless Battler is gay, but Yasu doesn't realize this and creates "Beatrice" to love him, setting the stage for a needlessly elaborate "love letter" which Battler claims wasn't necessary.
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2012-02-29, 02:37 | Link #27995 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Basically, I don't see a reason that Battler's jump couldn't also be a metaphor, and the motive for a metaphorical jump is a bit of a different question from that of a real one. Quote:
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Honestly, I enjoy your ready enthusiasm for my idea, but yeah there's still the big blank spot between "Battler freaks out and kills someone" to "everyone dies except Battler, Yasu, and Eva", so I wouldn't go so far as to simply say "it's what I think is what happened." I just like the idea, and think it has potential. Renall's right that none of the answers are really satisfactory in any comprehensive way. Quote:
Something like that. It's not too hard to justify. ------------------ There's a connection between Ikuko and Yasu that, to my surprise, no one has brought up yet, and that's Ikuko's name. Touya's name comes from Battler's age during the incident, which was 18. Written in Japanese kanji, Touya's name literally just reads "eighteen" (although when pronounced it comes out differently from how Japanese would typically say "eighteen", which would be "juu-hachi"). Ikuko's name actually has an interesting numbers connection too. The "ko" ("child") is a very common and generic suffix to girl's names so we can set that aside for now. As for "Iku", while it doesn't use written kanji numbers, it can actually be phonetically heard as "one-nine". Yasu's real age at the time of the incident was 19. You might be (understandably) thinking that such a connection could easily be a coincidence. However, there's also the use of the exact same "Iku" kanji in another name, and that's "Hachijou Touya's" online alias of "Itouikukuro Reigonamu", which number-puns into 11019960576. So there's no way that RK07 was unaware of the possibility that Ikuko could be thought of as "19-child". It seems quite likely that it was intentional, which would mean that either it's a trolltastic red herring, or there's an important connection between the identities of Ikuko and Yasu. Are you saying sex-male or gender-male? Because I have said that Yasu's sex is male and gender is female(-ish, at least) for a long time. |
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2012-02-29, 09:44 | Link #27996 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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For that matter, Battler strikes me as trying too hard himself...
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2012-02-29, 11:44 | Link #27997 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Trying too hard at what? Pretending Yasu is female? |
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2012-02-29, 12:26 | Link #27999 |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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I think Yasu was born male. Even the name Lion that Kinzo chose is rather masculine. At least compared to the names he chose for Eva and Rosa. And then there's the business with the man from 19 years ago, Natsuhi kept referring to him as a man so the baby must have been born male. Perhaps the accident altered the baby's gender somehow.
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2012-02-29, 12:42 | Link #28000 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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