Arafat's dead.

[7thMethuselah]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Now getting to the Israeli-palastinian issue, the Israelis are not the aggressor, but whether or not peace comes is more dependent on their actions than those of the palastinians. If the israelis were to pull out from the west bank and gaza strip completely including all the settlers, now would be a good time too thanks to arafat's death, the palastinians would then have what they wanted, their own country. Now most palastinians would be happy with that and even if the extremists wanted to continue the assult, they'd lose popular support from the palastinian people. If they managed to convince the people of their rightiousness, and continued, the israelis could then turn to the UN, and say that they tried peace, but it isn't working and they need to send UN peacekeeper into palastine, or the Israelis would have to defend themselves. Of course no one would want to send peacekeepers in, so it would give israel a free hand to do what ever they want.

That would indeed be a good start, however the question is how far would Israel have to draw back, and what about Jerusalem?

But a complete withdrawal would indeed improve the situation alot. The Palestine could then try to build up their state, extremist groups would loose quite a bit of their support as well (provided Israel doesn't retaliate with tank and bulldozers)

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

There are 2 potential problems with that though. It could make the arab nations surrounding israel think they've weakened from the suicide bombing, and inspire them to launch an invasion, but that isn't likely with the amount of US airpower in the region now. It could also cause a backlash among right wing factions in the israeli government, and may lead to a coup or outright civil war. Neither are very likely, but they are still of concern if Israel were to attempt such a plan.

The Arab nations won't be easilly tempted to invade Israel, even if israel would withdraw. The Israeli army is allready the strongest in the entire middle east and at this moment there is also a sizeable US force present. Besides there weren't any Arab nations trying anything when Israel withdrew from Lebanon a couple of years ago. And the situation on that side (the constant conflicts with Hesbollah) have seriously improved since then.

About an extreme right coup : very unlikely as well : Currently the extremist parties on the right side are mostly colonist parties and their support isn't big enough to launch a coup. Besides the party currently in power (Sharon's Likud Party) is a right wing conservative one...

I think if Israel would withdraw it's troops and if they stop the retaliations with tanks and bulldozers, the real problems would be

1. Jerusalem : and solving this one is even harder, I see no easy solution to be honest
2. The economic situation of the Palestinian Territories : even if they are completely independent they have little or no natural resources of any kind, so this new independent state would be in a deep economic crisis real fast, this would ultimately lead to an unstable situation. And if you have a rich neighbour with whom you had decades of conflict, compared to your poverty, the possibility exists that extremist in the Palestine Territories will blame israel and the whole crap will start all over again.

A true solution would have to include rebuilding the Palestinian Economy in my opinion.

PS thx NSW

[Enron]

OK, to the guy that lambasted my initial post in here....

Europe pre-WWII was not exactly the friendliest of places for jews. Attitudes towards jews in europe have been well documneted over the ages, you can even see it in literature, and it existed well before WWII going back hundereds of years. After WWII that seemed to soften drastically, perhaps due to the shock of what Nazi Germany did to them. But the facts are all there, and israel was born partly out of the want to find permanent homes for displaced european jews without nations having to take them back.

Now, going back to today......anti-semetism is on the rise in europe. Statistics put out by your own EU shows that attacks on jews/jewish institutions in europe have spiked dramatically as of late, especially in france, germany...along with the recent unpleasantness in holland.

And as far as sharon being the real terrorist; i can understand why you may not like the Israeli gov't, but understand that the Israeli gov't hasn't been strapping bombs to their citizens and sending them into crowded shopping plazas, pizza parlors, and cafes to blow up Palestinian women and children. Arafat has been doing this since at least the 70s. God only knows how much israeli blood is on his hands, and he will ultimately be the one who punishes him for it. Have fun in hell, Yasser.

[aahhsin]

I think the best thing to do right now is to take a look at the map of that region.

1. Jerusalem : and solving this one is even harder, I see no easy solution to be honest

This is going to be very very hard. Jerusalem is smack dab right in the middle of everything. So much for the Holy City.

2. The economic situation of the Palestinian Territories : even if they are completely independent they have little or no natural resources of any kind, so this new independent state would be in a deep economic crisis real fast, this would ultimately lead to an unstable situation. And if you have a rich neighbour with whom you had decades of conflict, compared to your poverty, the possibility exists that extremist in the Palestine Territories will blame israel and the whole crap will start all over again.

the only hope for Palestine is to rely on the Jordan river, which I don't think is a good idea.

I think the only true solution is to have a very strong leader to unite the Arab world into one big country. Unfortunetly, that's not going to happen.

And as far as sharon being the real terrorist; i can understand why you may not like the Israeli gov't, but understand that the Israeli gov't hasn't been strapping bombs to their citizens and sending them into crowded shopping plazas, pizza parlors, and cafes to blow up Palestinian women and children. Arafat has been doing this since at least the 70s. God only knows how much israeli blood is on his hands, and he will ultimately be the one who punishes him for it. Have fun in hell, Yasser.

I don't exactly label terrorism is just strapping bombs on someone and running into a bus.

Remember Sharon is the guy that uses Jets to shoot at buildings. Quick air strikes. And the CIA trains gurrellias to overthrow goverments. I don't know how to exactly label terrorism if it's in a middle of a war.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by 7thMethuselah

I think if Israel would withdraw it's troops and if they stop the retaliations with tanks and bulldozers, the real problems would be

1. Jerusalem : and solving this one is even harder, I see no easy solution to be honest
2. The economic situation of the Palestinian Territories : even if they are completely independent they have little or no natural resources of any kind, so this new independent state would be in a deep economic crisis real fast, this would ultimately lead to an unstable situation. And if you have a rich neighbour with whom you had decades of conflict, compared to your poverty, the possibility exists that extremist in the Palestine Territories will blame israel and the whole crap will start all over again.

A true solution would have to include rebuilding the Palestinian Economy in my opinion.

PS thx NSW

Yes, both those are huge problems. About jerusalem, any plan that would be acceptable to one side, would be unacceptable to the other The only solution that could be even somewhat acceptable to both sides is to make it an independent city state with no restrictions on either side's populations visiting any of their holy sites. However, since both want to make it their capital, this plan would probably be rejected too.
As for the economic crisis that would develop, ideally, the israelis should put up some financial aid, but most likely they'd say screw them, why should we help the people that were killing us. Other islamic nations would probably also do little, saying they got their country back and should stop complaining. The US would also probably take a screw you approach, but still send a little money. The vast majority of the resources for rebuilding would probably come from Europe, but there's the possibility that they'd say it's the israeli's problem and not do much either. In short the palestinians would probably be largely on their own, but it still wouldn't be an impossible task, just almost impossible...
Actually, the best solution I can think of would be for the palestinians to give up on their ideas of an independent homeland and instead work toward israeli citizenship. Of course that would be completely unacceptable to both sides, but it does have the best outcome that I can see.
Personally I don't see why that land is considered holy. I mean if it really was, wouldn't it somehow be better? It's sad to think about all those lives lost over the centuries for land that, for the most part, is little more than a barren wasteland, just because important religious leaders happened to be born there.

[7thMethuselah]

Originally Posted by aahhsin

I don't exactly label terrorism is just strapping bombs on someone and running into a bus.

Remember Sharon is the guy that uses Jets to shoot at buildings. Quick air strikes. And the CIA trains gurrellias to overthrow goverments. I don't know how to exactly label terrorism if it's in a middle of a war.

One of the main problems is most people in Israel and the Palestine Terrritories are blaming each other. Sharon says the palestines are terrorists, and the palestines have been pushed out of their ancestral land and their current homes are often being attacked by tanks bullsozers, air strikes etc. They are both right and wrong. They are both to blame.The issue is not who started it but who is gonna stop it !

First of all : both parties would have to stop the fighting, otherwise talking just isn't possible. A good start would be Sharon's plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip, he could then offer at the new palestinian leaders, (and I say leaderS,since this isn't a job a single palestinian leder should handle) a cease-fire/peace talk proposal.

But even if the fighting would stop it won't be that easy.

- concerning the negotiations it is obvious that Israel has the stronger position, therefore I think the US should push Israel to be more open to negotiations and concessions if needed, a neutral US would certainly help but (I could be wrong, but this is my impression) the US is more pro Israel.

- then there is the problem of the palestine representation, the best thing would be a small group that represents the different factions present. However Israel would have to want to talk to them.

- Assuming they do find a way to solve everything, UN Peace Keepers are almost a must have, Their purpose? They should be deployed mostly in Palestinian Territories to maintain the peace and to help build up a state, european troops would probably be best for this job imo.

- The peace plan MUST have a way to solve the economical situation, without all solutions would be in vain. This of course implies that palestinians would be ablle to work in Israel again, and opening trade between Israel and Palestina would certainly help

If Palestina and Israel can set up some kind of mutual beneficial trade organisation that would take away alot of reasosn to hate/attack each other. This off course would imply a rather heavy investment into Palestina at first

However, what I fear the most is that Israel will use the current situation to start up a "divide and rule" strategy, playing out different palestians leaders (who each on their own aren't powerful enough) and taking full control.

[aahhsin]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

As for the economic crisis that would develop, ideally, the israelis should put up some financial aid, but most likely they'd say screw them, why should we help the people that were killing us. Other islamic nations would probably also do little, saying they got their country back and should stop complaining. The US would also probably take a screw you approach, but still send a little money.

I disagree, the US will be probably sending the largest sum of cash. The US loves to act like the big man in the world. Hail our US Empire.

Personally I don't see why that land is considered holy. I mean if it really was, wouldn't it somehow be better? It's sad to think about all those lives lost over the centuries for land that, for the most part, is little more than a barren wasteland, just because important religious leaders happened to be born there.

Jesus died there. Jesus was buried there. Jesus rised from the grave there. Jesus spread it's teachings there first. Allah, God, and Yahweh (All the same God just their names in Islam, Christian and Jewish) all came from there. The Prophet Mohammed claimed his vision was for Islam to take Jeruslem for the name of God. The holy Grail is supposely there somewhere. Saladin and Richard the Lionheart fought over that land. Alexander the Great cut the Gordion knot around there.

Not to mention.

Back in the ancient days, that city was the best city in the world. All trade went through there, terrific access to the Mediterraen and Indian Ocean. The center route of the Silk Road.

[7thMethuselah]

Originally Posted by aahhsin

I disagree, the US will be probably sending the largest sum of cash. The US loves to act like the big man in the world. Hail our US Empire.

Actually currently the European Union is the one pumping the most money into the Palestinain Authority.
This even led to a controversy once Sharon claimed the money was being used for terrorism. After that The EU installed a controlling device to see where the money was going to make sure it didn't end in the wrong hands.

In fact the EU is actually in favor or sending more aid if that would contribute to a real solution of the problem.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by aahhsin

I disagree, the US will be probably sending the largest sum of cash. The US loves to act like the big man in the world. Hail our US Empire.



Jesus died there. Jesus was buried there. Jesus rised from the grave there. Jesus spread it's teachings there first. Allah, God, and Yahweh (All the same God just their names in Islam, Christian and Jewish) all came from there. The Prophet Mohammed claimed his vision was for Islam to take Jeruslem for the name of God. The holy Grail is supposely there somewhere. Saladin and Richard the Lionheart fought over that land. Alexander the Great cut the Gordion knot around there.

Not to mention.

Back in the ancient days, that city was the best city in the world. All trade went through there, terrific access to the Mediterraen and Indian Ocean. The center route of the Silk Road.

That may have been true in the past, but at present, it's nothing more than a backroad. Also I think the climate was a bit friendlier to agriculture then, but dont' hold me to that statement. I really don't see how its worth fighting for now. As for the religious arugument, I know all that, but I don't see how it makes the land itself holy. Maybe I should have been a little clearer in how I said it.
Finally as for the holy grail, wasn't it supposedly taken to europe during the crusades? I've heard two stories about that. one with the knights templar taking it and eventually burying it somewhere in southern france as their order was being persecuted. The other has Richard the lion hearted taking it back to england, where it eventually found its way to america and is currently sitting in the back room of a museum in New York.

[Bun-kun]

Originally Posted by Enron

OK, to the guy that lambasted my initial post in here....

Europe pre-WWII was not exactly the friendliest of places for jews. Attitudes towards jews in europe have been well documneted over the ages, you can even see it in literature, and it existed well before WWII going back hundereds of years. After WWII that seemed to soften drastically, perhaps due to the shock of what Nazi Germany did to them. But the facts are all there, and israel was born partly out of the want to find permanent homes for displaced european jews without nations having to take them back.

Now, going back to today......anti-semetism is on the rise in europe. Statistics put out by your own EU shows that attacks on jews/jewish institutions in europe have spiked dramatically as of late, especially in france, germany...along with the recent unpleasantness in holland.

And as far as sharon being the real terrorist; i can understand why you may not like the Israeli gov't, but understand that the Israeli gov't hasn't been strapping bombs to their citizens and sending them into crowded shopping plazas, pizza parlors, and cafes to blow up Palestinian women and children. Arafat has been doing this since at least the 70s. God only knows how much israeli blood is on his hands, and he will ultimately be the one who punishes him for it. Have fun in hell, Yasser.

hmmm isn't there a quote in the bible that says "It's easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle, then a rich man to reach heaven?" something along those line, so according to your religion, Bush will burn in hell, so will most of his administration :P . Speaking of blood, imagine all the bloods that are on Bushes hands, he orders attack left and right. again I would like to ask him, Who Would Jesus Bomb? Don't look at things so one sided, try to be a little bit more objective, you're makin us American look bad

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Bun-kun

hmmm isn't there a quote in the bible that says "It's easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle, then a rich man to reach heaven?" something along those line, so according to your religion, Bush will burn in hell, so will most of his administration :P . Speaking of blood, imagine all the bloods that are on Bushes hands, he orders attack left and right. again I would like to ask him, Who Would Jesus Bomb? Don't look at things so one sided, try to be a little bit more objective, you're makin us American look bad

I hate Bush as much as the next guy, but I have to say, so far the only invasion he's ordered that wasn't justified was Iraq. Afganistan was basicly a puppet government for el qaeda, as such the US was well within it's rights to invade after 9-11. The problem is when 9-11 becomes justification to do whatever the president wants, like in Iraq. Of course if there is a hell, bush would be in good company, as just about every world leader in history would be there.

[Bun-kun]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

I hate Bush as much as the next guy, but I have to say, so far the only invasion he's ordered that wasn't justified was Iraq. Afganistan was basicly a puppet government for el qaeda, as such the US was well within it's rights to invade after 9-11. The problem is when 9-11 becomes justification to do whatever the president wants, like in Iraq. Of course if there is a hell, bush would be in good company, as just about every world leader in history would be there.

I meant all those innocent civilians caught in the cross fire in Iraq. Bush isn't the only bad guy, the "terrorist" are just as bad. 2 wrongs will never make a right, that saying also goes with the Iraelis and the Palestinians. But this problem will continue for century because of their Monotheist religion. Seems to me the ones that are causin all the strife in the worlds are christians, jews, and muslims. The religion itself is not bad, just their followers. All these religion preaches peace and compassion for others, too bad humans are greedy and use religion as an excuse to get what they want

[Meow]

Religion is a brain wash... once you read a bible or beleave in those things, it will be harder for you to quit beleaving even when there's proof cause god say this.. god say that and the other say that... and god.. god..god...

god is your damn planet earth ! sure sure... i can create my own religion so i can be leader like many middle-east peoples do... just to be a prophet or a king look im in the history book !

I think araphat wanted to do the same.

Wanna read my bible ? it talks about me and god and he told me what do to.
HEY ! look i visit the pope every weeks, to make my peoples beleave that im a good leader... look !

*take a trip at the museum* *OMG ! a stone been touched by jesus ! 100,000 $*

[StoneColdCrazy]

Wow, another thread where opinion is fiercely divided and, oddly enough, the same people seem to be on the same sides.

I think Arafat was a fascinating character and his history, as well as the events that unfolded around him, are extremely complex, open to a huge amount of debate and interpretation. He was determined, but also stubborn and inflexible. He possibly had very good intentions, but less commendable methods. Perhaps he believed the ends justified the means, or that revenge was as important as progress. I don't think the case is closed on Arafat by any means and I'm sure we will learn more things about him as time goes by and secrets leak out. He was a three-dimensional character who can't necessarily be summed up in a poorly punctuated, single paragraph post on an internet forum.

There's a saying that "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" and I'm not sure if Arafat giving people hope was always a good thing - if that hope and that enthusiasm leads them to acts of violence and retaliation then it's not always a positive thing. I think what Arafat desired and did was often quite different from what he inspired others to ask for or to do and, of course, he didn't necessarily represent everyone who claimed to be inspired by him. Nevertheless, many people saw him as fighting for a deserved and just freedom, and I can understand why he was so warmly received by so many people, including the UN, who, way back in 1967, had passed Security Council Resolution 242, asking for the "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict." So much for that, then. Like so many other problems in the Middle East, this one has grown and grown. You could say some of the root causes date back to the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1918, where Britian and France promised Arabs, who were revolting against the Ottoman Empire, their own lands. What actually happened was that Britain and France divided the area as they saw fit and also, with the Balfour Declaration, leant the international Zionist movement their support in creating a 'Jewish homeland in Palestine'. The middle east has been screwed over many times by the West, no wonder there's so much anti-Western sentiment.

I find it ironic that Israel has always condemned right-wing Islamic fundamentalist groups and their behaviour in the region, yet are now under the rule of a much more right-wing leader (of a 'left wing' party) and were unable to prevent the actions of Jewish fundamentalists in assassinating Rabin in 1995 that hampered the peace process considerably. Both sides can be just as bad as each other and exasperate their own problems (Israeli helicopters attacking Palestinain police stations when Israel is asking the Palestinians to better control the proliferation of weapons and explosives? When they don't have any police officers left? Palestinian soldiers firing rockets at Israeli townships and so causing the inevitable tank excursions looking for terrorists and firing at anything that moves?), but how that behaviour filters through the media to our newspapers and televisions can vary considerably. It's inevetable that the wealthier, more powerful side in any dispute has a better equipped media with stronger presence, perhaps leading to an unintentional bias. And, of course, nobody likes to believe that their country or their allies are the ones in the wrong.

Originally Posted by aahhsin

I don't exactly label terrorism is just strapping bombs on someone and running into a bus.

Remember Sharon is the guy that uses Jets to shoot at buildings. Quick air strikes. And the CIA trains gurrellias to overthrow goverments. I don't know how to exactly label terrorism if it's in a middle of a war.

Yeah, there are times where there's effectively a war going on between the two sides and the rules of engagement become very blurred. Both sides cause enormous amounts of collateral damage. Israel has the same problem that forces in Iraq have now - who is and who isn't a target? I think some of them have given up caring. The Palestinians obviously have the problem that they're the underdog and some of them believe that desperate times require desperate measures.

If only it were like Star Wars, where the only people the religious terrorists killed were the white-clad stormtroopers.

SCC

[StoneColdCrazy]

Originally Posted by Bun-kun

hmmm isn't there a quote in the bible that says "It's easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle, then a rich man to reach heaven?

Yeah. It's actually a mistranslation - 'camel' should be 'rope'. But it wouldn't be the Bible if it wasn't full of mistakes.

SCC

[Enron]

Originally Posted by Bun-kun

hmmm isn't there a quote in the bible that says "It's easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle, then a rich man to reach heaven?" something along those line, so according to your religion, Bush will burn in hell, so will most of his administration :P . Speaking of blood, imagine all the bloods that are on Bushes hands, he orders attack left and right. again I would like to ask him, Who Would Jesus Bomb? Don't look at things so one sided, try to be a little bit more objective, you're makin us American look bad

Are you actually DEFENDING the actions of yassir Arafat?

OK, so you don't like bush. But Bush didn't order the United States military to go indiscriminantly kill innocent men, women and children. You know who DID do that, though? Yassir Arafat. Bush will be judged if he has indeed committed a "sin". But I know for DAMN sure that the intentional and cowardly murder of civilian non-combatants is one. Burn in hell, Arafat.

Saddam Hussein kills thousands of his own people a year, and i forget the estimated number of Iraqi citizens that were either killed or went "missing" during the rule of the Ba'ath party, but its a staggering amount. The number of iraqi incidental casualties as a result of this invasion pales in comparison to the amount killed by saddam's party, by saddam himself, or the number that surely would have lost their lives had they been allowed to continue. Its funny that people tend to ignore that.

But anyways, nice try trying to derail a thread about ARAFAT into a "Bush is evil, America = MURDERERS" one. This thread is about ARAFAT. He's a Terrorist, he's dead, the world is a better F'n place.

[???]

Arafat diverted money donated by foreign countries' tax-payers to his wife who lived in Paris. something like $100000-200000 per month.

he financed terrorism (while simultaniously being a Nobel Peace laureate and smiling for the European cameras and press writing ass-licking op-eds about him being the champion of peace)

he did not finance a single housing-unit for "his people" with a) his personal fortune, and b) international donations (read: his personal fortune)

being a senile terrorist would be bad for public image, had the world press not treated him like a sweetheart. who knows why he needed over a billion dollars for himself... why 200 million wasn't enough... and who knows why he didn't spend it on his people... but wait. the Guardian, NYT and CBS will think of something

[Green²]

Originally Posted by Enron

This thread is about ARAFAT. He's a Terrorist, he's dead, the world is a better F'n place.

As he is dead, maybe it will be a better place,.. maybe it won't. It will all depend on who will take his place and of how much influence that person will have. And for that, only time will tell.

[Bun-kun]

Originally Posted by Enron

Are you actually DEFENDING the actions of yassir Arafat?

OK, so you don't like bush. But Bush didn't order the United States military to go indiscriminantly kill innocent men, women and children. You know who DID do that, though? Yassir Arafat. Bush will be judged if he has indeed committed a "sin". But I know for DAMN sure that the intentional and cowardly murder of civilian non-combatants is one. Burn in hell, Arafat.

Saddam Hussein kills thousands of his own people a year, and i forget the estimated number of Iraqi citizens that were either killed or went "missing" during the rule of the Ba'ath party, but its a staggering amount. The number of iraqi incidental casualties as a result of this invasion pales in comparison to the amount killed by saddam's party, by saddam himself, or the number that surely would have lost their lives had they been allowed to continue. Its funny that people tend to ignore that.

But anyways, nice try trying to derail a thread about ARAFAT into a "Bush is evil, America = MURDERERS" one. This thread is about ARAFAT. He's a Terrorist, he's dead, the world is a better F'n place.

lol I wasn't defending Arafat, if you read my post you would see that I said both side are in the wrong. Plus your ava, and your comments didn't help this thread to "stay the course." And speaking of human atrocity, Rwanda is having one of those right now, but where are the U.S, psfff There are still Khmer Rouge roaming free in Cambodia today yet I don't see the U.S doin anything about it, ahhhh wait Cambodia doesn't have anything useful (oil) to the US so it doesn't matter, neither does Rwanda. Murder is Murder, I don't think the ten commandment says "Thou Shalt Not Murder...unlesss" I always laugh when this idiot of a president keeps saying "I value all Human life" lol how many people did he put to death when he was governor, not to mention a woman, and a retarded person.

[Enron]

Originally Posted by Bun-kun

lol I wasn't defending Arafat, if you read my post you would see that I said both side are in the wrong. Plus your ava, and your comments didn't help this thread to "stay the course." And speaking of human atrocity, Rwanda is having one of those right now, but where are the U.S, psfff There are still Khmer Rouge roaming free in Cambodia today yet I don't see the U.S doin anything about it, ahhhh wait Cambodia doesn't have anything useful (oil) to the US so it doesn't matter, neither does Rwanda. Murder is Murder, I don't think the ten commandment says "Thou Shalt Not Murder...unlesss" I always laugh when this idiot of a president keeps saying "I value all Human life" lol how many people did he put to death when he was governor, not to mention a woman, and a retarded person.

Your reply has nothing to do with Arafat, you just want to criticize the united states.

Rwanda - WHERE IS THE UNITED NATIONS?

Cambodia - WHERE IS THE UNITED NATIONS?

Its not just the US that doesn't care about them. You, and the rest of the world, don't care about them. So don't give me that BS. If it were otherwise there'd be an arseload of UN Peackeepers there. Where are they???? We don't care about them because the Rwandan government has no capacity to hurt the United States or support terrorists. The Khmer Rouge are a bunch of gunmen that hide out in the wilderness of cambodia, they aren't going to hurt us either. Nice try with the death penalty crap as well. IMO, the death penalty isn't applied ENOUGH. It seems that you want to argue about everything else OTHER than arafat. I wonder why that is. Is it perhaps because, gasp, you CANT? The mods should just close this damn thread. Its pointless because some of you refuse to stay on topic, and just degenerate into US-bashing in your defense of this Monster.

Having Bush re-elected was worth it, if only just to see the whining and crying of people like you. Keep it up, it warms my cold, black, evil republican soul.

[Bun-kun]

Your arguement before was that the reason why we attack Iraq was because we care for the ppl of Iraq, and you wanted to put human atrocity down because of what Saddam did to his ppl. I counter your arguement saying that if we are so into helping against human astrocity what about these other countries with Genocide. Lol you know how many U.N resolution Israel broke? But you don't want to hear that. Arafat did what he can to fight for his country, in which he was chased out from. Palestine does not have the U.S weapons Israel does, so they resort to doing something that they feel works. Do I support there action, no. But I can understand where Arafat comes from. You would do the same if you were pushed into the corner. lol I like how you republicans seems to understand what god really when Jesus clearly speak of peace and compassion, and hey heres one forgiveness. Death penalty implement more, there something you would never hear out of the mouth of Jesus too.