Higurashi (1st Season) General Discussion

[Morgri]

Spoiler:

The theory of dual personality and mental instition is a good, but has a couple flaws. Firstly, Assuming Satoshi/keiichi did go insane and started killing people, he would have to had done it since nearly 9 years prior. Keiichi, no matter how you look it, is 16-17 at the most? That means he had to start killing people and ubducting them them since he was ten? There just isn't much possibility of him killing that many people, getting away with it, and figuring out some way to hide those that were "Deamened away." Coupled with the idea that he could kill is parents, it just in all likehoods impossible, especially knowing that all his main victims are older men.

Secondly, killings still happened while he was transfered away. That means, in some ways let's Keiichi free of what happened, because he was not there and therefore couldn't do it. So who killed that guy?

However, did the inspecter, the old man, basically tell us in the second episode that began? He said that the killings happened right after Keiichi left, correct. So did, Satoshi/Keiichi have something to do with that murder or not. I just think there is too much left out to think he was a young killer.

Though, on the Idea that he is Satoshi, I started thinking that as soon as he first heard his name. I was be kind of sad if he did turn out do be him because it would of been a rather easy discovery =/

When Rena and Mion are talking in the classroom while Keichi is pretending to sleep, doesn't Rena just say "Toshi"? Didn't "Sa-" come from the card? Maybe Keichi created the "Satoshi" person based on what he thought he heard or what he wanted to hear. The problem with that theory is that the other characters seem to respond to the "Satoshi" name, but that could be imaginary too.

Also, like someone said it's a possibility that the police guy could be a bit dodgy too...that's what I initially thought. Some sort of MGS2 situation where everyone seems to be conspiring against the main character....

I think we are relying far to much on "is this imaginery." If we keep thinking this way then why not speculate the murder really didn't happen. What if the Older Police dude did it and is telling the story as if Keiichi were some kind of maniac. I think we have to think more about what is imaginery and what isn't -- cause if everything that keiichi saw was imaginery... then... nothing basically happened.

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by Morgri

Spoiler:

I think we are relying far to much on "is this imaginery." If we keep thinking this way then why not speculate the murder really didn't happen. What if the Older Police dude did it and is telling the story as if Keiichi were some kind of maniac. I think we have to think more about what is imaginery and what isn't -- cause if everything that keiichi saw was imaginery... then... nothing basically happened.

Spoiler:

Yeah, I agree, I imagine that there's more to the mystery than "this is all down to Kei's dillusions".

Sushi-Y and kj have been emphasising the importance of the "trigger points", and the parts where Kei has multiple paths to lead...and which path he takes.

I'm thinking that the whole eavesdropping on Mion and Rena thing may be one of the turning points. The fact that he decided to ask Rena about it led to the first psycho moment, and USODA. Maybe if he didn't decide to pursue the Satoshi thing, things would have turned out differently. Hmm..

EDIT: More to add

Spoiler:

If Kei didn't ask Rena about Satoshi, USODA wouldn't have happened, so when he had the conversation with the police officer and his dad tells him that Rena is there, he wouldn't have freaked out like he did, and think Rena is evil. If he didn't think Rena was evil, then he possibly would have gone to school with her the next day. Meaning that he wouldn't have gone to the "dodgy" doctor. And he wouldn't have run into the police guy and heard about the other girls' stories, and "all the murders are related to your friends in some way". If this didn't happen, Kei wouldn't have been paranoid towards his friends. I think the needle thing was imagined due to the paranoia Kei had towards his friends. This wouldn't have happened if Kei didn't have the conversation with the police officer.

Then, Kei wouldn't have "imagined" that the guy in the van was trying to hit him. He then wouldn't have picked up Satoshi's baseball bat....do you see where I'm going with this?

[/SPOILER]

[Morgri]

Spoiler:

Well the first trigger is quite obviously the article that leads him to take up the article. However, what triggered his huge change, I think, was the way Rena acted when he wanted to know about Keiichi, and why he was talking to the older man. That just what I think...

The one thing I just can't get over is the fact that no matter how we look at it, this anime can't end happily becuase every, not matter how we look at it, dies at the end. How sad...

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by Morgri

Spoiler:

However, what triggered his huge change, I think, was the way Rena acted when he wanted to know about Keiichi, and why he was talking to the older man. That just what I think...

Spoiler:

Yup, this is what I meant in my above post. If USODA was prevented (which it could have easily if Kei didn't ask Rena what happened, then the first chapter wouldn't have ended like it did). I can imagine the situation in the game, in the classroom after Kei listens to Rena and Mion's conversation:

A: Ask Rena about Satoshi
B: Avoid the matter

[Jellyfish Marine]

Scribble-san! Your theories sounds so possible OwO! I had never thought of that but now that you've mentioned it...it's like "Wow! So that's it? It might really happened that way!?"

[Vicke]

Originally Posted by Morgri

Spoiler:

The theory of dual personality and mental instition is a good, but has a couple flaws. Firstly, Assuming Satoshi/keiichi did go insane and started killing people, he would have to had done it since nearly 9 years prior. Keiichi, no matter how you look it, is 16-17 at the most? That means he had to start killing people and ubducting them them since he was ten? There just isn't much possibility of him killing that many people, getting away with it, and figuring out some way to hide those that were "Deamened away." Coupled with the idea that he could kill is parents, it just in all likehoods impossible, especially knowing that all his main victims are older men.

Secondly, killings still happened while he was transfered away. That means, in some ways let's Keiichi free of what happened, because he was not there and therefore couldn't do it. So who killed that guy?

However, did the inspecter, the old man, basically tell us in the second episode that began? He said that the killings happened right after Keiichi left, correct. So did, Satoshi/Keiichi have something to do with that murder or not. I just think there is too much left out to think he was a young killer.

Though, on the Idea that he is Satoshi, I started thinking that as soon as he first heard his name. I was be kind of sad if he did turn out do be him because it would of been a rather easy discovery =/



I think we are relying far to much on "is this imaginery." If we keep thinking this way then why not speculate the murder really didn't happen. What if the Older Police dude did it and is telling the story as if Keiichi were some kind of maniac. I think we have to think more about what is imaginery and what isn't -- cause if everything that keiichi saw was imaginery... then... nothing basically happened.

Spoiler:

No the first murder happend in 1979, when the foreman(according to the newletter K1 reads) to the dam construction gets chopped up, so it would be 5 years prior. Also Oishi tells K1 that Satoshi is one year older than K1 in the beginning of ep3. Oishi says Satoshi disappeard in the fourth year(1982) and Rena says Satoshi was transfered out at nearly the same time as Rena arrived. Rena also says she only been in Hinamizawa for 1 year. Which makes it an 11 month gap between Satoshi's disappearance/transfer and K1's transfer to Hinamizawa. Between the festivals there was no murders(that we know about), so I guess that Satoshi/K1 could be the/one of killers. Assuming that everyone is telling the truth.

[Morgri]

Spoiler:

So then how is it possible for Satoshi to be Keiichi if he is one year older? Would that be another possible gap in the Satoshi is Keiichi theory? Even then, assuming that Keiichi is 16-17, five years past would mean he was only 11, could an eleven year old really kill and "deamon away" someone who has never been found? It just seems highly unlikely --- this is assuming that Keiichi/Satoshi is the mental subject murderer who was transferred away.

Also to Scribble

Spoiler:

I don't think it wouldn't have made much of a difference whether he had talked to Rena or not, because the Old Man had inquired about the boy without his knowledge -- therefore, he would have been curious nontheless.

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by Morgri

Spoiler:

I don't think it wouldn't have made much of a difference whether he had talked to Rena or not, because the Old Man had inquired about the boy without his knowledge -- therefore, he would have been curious nontheless.

Spoiler:

But the thing is, Kei's perception of Rena seems to be the key to his downfall. If Kei didn't ask Rena, USODA wouldn't have happened and Kei wouldn't have been suspicious towards Rena.

Again, his first "psycho moment" was related to Rena (when his dad brings the tea). You could say that once that first psycho moment occured, then there was no going back for K1.

[SpaceDrake]

May I just say, HURRAH VICTORY. Higurashi fans now have their own forum to obsess in.

Carry on.

[Jellyfish Marine]

Spoiler:

I personally don't really agree with Satoshi=Keiichi. After all, looking at Satoshi's surname, we can assume that he is related to Satoko. So, if Keiichi=Satoshi, she should have shown more emotion.

Ah, about Tomitake's wife, I think she's pretty scary. You see, she was talking about murders and people went missing...with smile and distinct joy in her voice. If that's not because she's a mystery craze, I think she has a lot to do with whatever happened here in the part

[SpaceDrake]

Spoiler:

Just to chime in really fast, and I'll post my "novella" later... I agree that the "Keiichi=Satoshi" thing doesn't work. Satoko would behave in a completely different manner around him if he was, and plus, how do you explain the parents, the fact that nobody else recognises him (including Oishi!), etc etc etc...

They're doing similar things, which means that Satoshi probably figured out the same things Kei has, or experienced the same things. That does not make them the same person.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Jellyfish Marine

Spoiler:

I personally don't really agree with Satoshi=Keiichi. After all, looking at Satoshi's surname, we can assume that he is related to Satoko. So, if Keiichi=Satoshi, she should have shown more emotion.

Ah, about Tomitake's wife, I think she's pretty scary. You see, she was talking about murders and people went missing...with smile and distinct joy in her voice. If that's not because she's a mystery craze, I think she has a lot to do with whatever happened here in the part

Just to clarify, that wasn't Tomitake's wife. Takano Miyo is assummed to be Tomitake's girlfriend.

[Harlequin101]

Spoiler:

Well, I rewatched Episode 3, and it seems Oiishi (the policeman) mentioned that lots of strange things happened around Satoko and Rika. It seems that Satoko's close relations are/were being killed off. Rika's family was also killed off and she's Satoko's best friend. However, Episodes 1 - 4 NEVER bring any suspicion on them except for that one scene with Satoko getting upset after she sees Keiichi with Satoshi's bat. It's strange that Mion and Rena are being placed in the spotlight, when past events point at the other two girls. This, coupled with the fact that Takano also seemed like an important character but wasn't focused on at all ... makes me think that Mion and Rena are just red herrings being thrown at the audience, this is because their creepiness seems to be tossed at us in large and obvious helpings.

This isn't to say that I don't appreciate Mion and Rena, because they're both wonderful characters.

[Mr. Guy]

Originally Posted by Harlequin101

Spoiler:

Well, I rewatched Episode 3, and it seems Oiishi (the policeman) mentioned that lots of strange things happened around Satoko and Rika. It seems that Satoko's close relations are/were being killed off. Rika's family was also killed off and she's Satoko's best friend. However, Episodes 1 - 4 NEVER bring any suspicion on them except for that one scene with Satoko getting upset after she sees Keiichi with Satoshi's bat. It's strange that Mion and Rena are being placed in the spotlight, when past events point at the other two girls. This, coupled with the fact that Takano also seemed like an important character but wasn't focused on at all ... makes me think that Mion and Rena are just red herrings being thrown at the audience, this is because their creepiness seems to be tossed at us in large and obvious helpings.

This isn't to say that I don't appreciate Mion and Rena, because they're both wonderful characters.

Spoiler:

I don't know, the opening seems to portray Satoko and Rika in a more or less non-threatening manner as well. Satoko is shown crying in front of the moon while Rika is wearing a... fox demon mask? I remember something about being used for hide and seek or something? Maybe there's some significance to that (possibly a game the club plays)? Either way, Rena and Mion are shown to be the more psychotic out of the four based solely on that. Also, who's the other girl lying naked with Mion there? A character we haven't seen yet?

Though it's really impossible to tell at this point. It's possible that Rena and Mion are truly the villians and that Rika and Satoko are the victims, seemingly. Or it could all possibly be a ploy in order to draw our attention away from who the real masterminds are.

[Crimen Scythe]

i dunno if this has been addressed b4...but does anyone think the needle in the food that Rena gave to Keiichi might've contained some "special" chemical....that mightve made him go psycho or atleast develop more paranoia...i also say this because in ep 4 b4 Keiichi kills Mion and Rena...they try to inject his arm with some liquid....i might be completely wrong about this....but it's just a recurring thought that's been bugging me...

[Azn_GooWakJai]

Spoiler for title:

Ok so if K1 thinks there are is more than 2 murderers aside from Mion and Rena, there are still 2 more suspicious people left which is the 2 of the 4 gals in the school and I forgot the name sorry! Also, many of you have said K1 could've been Satoshi's "past" how do u explain K1's death in ep 4? He seriously slit his freakin throat!! Talk bout a turn of event. This is starting to bother me because the anime made tons of spotlight on both Rena and Mion and yet they died (oh also this not really hard to know they would die sooner or later cuz thats wat was shown in ep 1 before the intro). So now that we have 3 main character dead...wats left is the murderer? So how do yall think the story will progress for 22 more eps?

[DingoEnderZOE2]

Originally Posted by Azn_GooWakJai

Spoiler for title:

Ok so if K1 thinks there are is more than 2 murderers aside from Mion and Rena, there are still 2 more suspicious people left which is the 2 of the 4 gals in the school and I forgot the name sorry! Also, many of you have said K1 could've been Satoshi's "past" how do u explain K1's death in ep 4? He seriously slit his freakin throat!! Talk bout a turn of event. This is starting to bother me because the anime made tons of spotlight on both Rena and Mion and yet they died (oh also this not really hard to know they would die sooner or later cuz thats wat was shown in ep 1 before the intro). So now that we have 3 main character dead...wats left is the murderer? So how do yall think the story will progress for 22 more eps?

Due to the shocking turn of events that happened so early in the anime, I found myself asking this very same question earlier. From what I understood from the response I got, The story will be told from various time frames also known as arcs(With all the characters alive, but beginning from a different path from the last arc. Example:What if Keichi didn't find out about the murders what would have happened then, what if Keichi didn't believe Mion and Rena were the killers.), so you can figure out what went wrong in each different arc while figuring out the clues to the puzzle that this anime is trying to get us to solve. I rather like this concept and I'm hoping this works out for the anime.

[SvenTheSweeper]

Originally Posted by Sushi-Y

I can't explain very well without spoiling things, but for all intents and purposes, you should consider Onikakushi as a "scenario": a single possible ending in an unknown number of endings. For example, as most of you can probably tell, Onikakushi is obviously a "failed scenario" ("bad end", for all you visual novel players ).

The challenges for the viewers is to:

#1 Find out what went wrong and when things went wrong. Ask questions like: "where did things go wrong?" and "what went wrong in THIS scenario but was ok in THAT scenario?" (for example, maybe something happened in Onikakushi, which didn't in Watanagashi, and resulted in a bad development) Since we're still quite early in the game (the 2nd "chapter" hasn't even begun yet), there's no way to compare, but keep it in your mind.

#2 Learn more about the main characters. In each scenario, we will find out a little more about our main characters and the setting, and you will find clues from one chapter that'll explain something from another. (For example, by looking at the Watanagashi-hen preview screenshots, some of you suggested that since Mion appears to be working as a waitress at Angel Mort, that's how she learned about the meeting between Oishi and Keiichi during Onikakushi)

Here's an important TIP from Rena at the end of the Watanagashi-hen in the game:"ALL the characters from ALL the scenarios are the SAME people. Just because a character's (say, Rena) behaviours were totally different in two different "chapters" DOES NOT mean that he/she is a different person in those two scenarios." If the character appears to be different (for example, evil in one chapter but normal in another), then you can assume that the cause for the difference is EXTERNAL.

Eventually, after seeing enough scenarios, you might learn enough about a character's personality/position that'll help you determine whether that character's certain action in another scenario was plausible or not (Example: "since Mion was like this in (chapter name), it would make sense that she was ______ in (different chapter name)").

#3 Make determinations based on what you believe to be solid facts. This has been mentioned over and over again before, but don't believe everything you see or hear. Only accept information that you consider to be trustworthy. And you will have to base your "trustworthy" scale on what I mentioned in #2 above.

For example, a lot of you has already mentioned the possibility that many of the "information" from Onikakushi-hen were simply Keiichi's own delusions. Is there anything else? What about the things that Rena and Mion said? What about Oishi? Are they trustworthy? You'll find out more about them in subsequent chapters that'll help you make that decision.

I think I already said too much, most of these advices would probably work better until after at least two different scenarios have been aired (Onikakushi + Watanagashi).


All I can say is: just you wait until Tsumihoroboshi.

I love this anime the same way I loved watching Twin Peaks back in the early 1990s. It has become an obsession to know what’s going on, and while eagerly waiting for more episodes.

Both shows involve a male protagonist who comes to a small town and gets involved with the local mystery and the residents. Both had a supernatural angle with Oyashshiro-sama (Higurashi) and Bob the demon (TP). You had to piece the clues together, and things aren’t what they seemed.

In regards to Higurashi, want to make some observations. They maybe clues or red herrings. Just as Sushi-Y said, and KJ would probably agree:

#1 Find out what went wrong and when things went wrong.
#2 Learn more about the main characters
#3 Make determinations based on what you believe to be solid facts. This has been mentioned over and over again before, but don't believe everything you see or hear.

I am trying not to be hasty in advancing any firm hypothesis.

At the risk of violating #3, here’s what I’ve noticed for Episodes 1-4:

A-There is a pattern of alternating mood-swings between the Keiichi and the girls ( e.g. Rena and Mion). I have not seen them engaging each other simultaneously in psychosis-mode . It’s as if there is a flip flop between aggressor and victim. However there’s one exception, the scene where

Spoiler:

In episode 4 Keiichi is looking out the window at Rena apologizing in the rain after trying to fool around about his lying. She is apologizing with the psychotic look in her eyes. It's as if the boundary between victim and antagonizer were broken, and blurred. Rena and Keiichi could be both at the same time. I am keeping an eye on this phenomenon of blurring the line between victim and antagonizer in upcoming episodes.

Evidence for psychiatric disorders, drugs, bad water, and medical conspiracy as being the prime driver of the psychosis-mode and mystery in general has been put forth in this thread. But they haven’t been totally conclusive, yet.

Trying to separate subjective reality of the characters from objective reality has been tough so far, after reading all of the posts.


B-

Spoiler:

Episode 4. Men in green hitting Keiichi, and he ends up in his room with Rena Mion. That leads to the injection scene with Mion and Rena. One moment Keiichi is the victim of the syringe assault, and then he is beating Mion and Rena. This leads me to wonder what happened in gaps between the events of the Men and Green->Keiichi’s room and the Keiichi being victim-> Keiichi being aggressors. There was also a flashing scene of the girls before Keiichi’s killing spree. Once again is this subjective reality or objective reality, or even both!?

C-

Spoiler:

The Director that Mion and Rena mentioned in Episode 4, I figure will be an important thing to watch.

D-

Spoiler:

There was something else taped to the back of the clock in Keiichi’s room, in addition to his death note. Because there was additional tape and the Oishi had mentioned there was another item other than what they found. Keiichi mentioned the syringe as evidence for drugs that killed Tomitake, could the other item be the syringe? Episode 4.

E-Episode 4.

Spoiler:

Mion mentions she should have killed the old man before he retired. Assuming that she referred to Oishi, means there is another connection to look out for, that of Mion and Oishi.

F-Method of killing the dam workers (dismemberment, presumably by a cutting instrument) is different

Spoiler:

than what Keiichi supposedly did to the girls (blunt force trauma with a bat). However, Tomitake and Keiichi killed themselves by cutting their throats with their own hands. Does the different murder M.O. suggest more than one than one motivation or suspect, be it person or curse, lurking in the story?

G-Episode 1. Game club rules. Rule#1- Aim only for first place. Club rule#2- Make every endeavor to win. Are these rules applicable to the way the large mystery is to be played out by the characters?

H-Mion is seen wearing a shoulder holster with what appears to be a gun in Episode 2 and 4.

Spoiler:

In the syringe scene she is wearing it, yet it is missing on her in the next after Keiichi bludgeons her to death. I assume this observation will be fleshed out later on.

I-Keiichi’s

Spoiler:

death note he left being the clock begins with not knowing who wants to kill him, but that it has something to do with Oyashiro-sama, in Episode 3.

Later in Episode 4 he also implicates

Spoiler:

Rena, Mion, and 4-5 other adults with a white van. He also blames Tomitake’s death on unknown drugs. However later on as he dies in the telephone booth, he blames Oyashiro-sama.

So he goes from supernatural (Oyashiro-sama) and unknown reasons (ep.3), to specific human involvement (ep.4), and back to Oyashiro-sama (ep.4).

J-Houjou Satoko was frightened by Keiichi swinging Satoshi’s bat. Episode 3. I was disappointed that her fears weren’t delved into, but it guess it will come later.

K- Episode 3-4.

Spoiler:

Keiichi’s father is having problem with his work, so both parents have to go to Tokyo. Is this important or is it a red Herring?

Using the characters’ subjective reality and personal point of view is problematic in determining what real solid facts are. They are evidenced by observations A, B, C, I.

So they may clue you in more about the point #1 and #2:

#1 Find out what went wrong and when things went wrong.
#2 Learn more about the main characters

More so than->
#3 Make determinations based on what you believe to be solid facts.

If there one thing that is for certain with Episodes 1-4, it is the constant fluidity of the characters and their circumstances.

Are there any other ideas or observations?

[kj1980]

Also, you'll all be happy to know that we are putting up TIPS on the sticky little by little as the episode progresses. Feel free to utilize whether these TIPS will help you on your quest for solving the mystery.

[SpaceDrake]

kj, is it alright if I re-post my "TIPS comments" in this thread? I get why you want to keep that thread clean, but there's one or two things I'd like to point out for others/discuss briefly.