Fate/stay night Episode 23 Discussion thread

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Tabris

Nope. I'm not going to trek through his posts either. But I'm going to assume from that reply that what you said may hold some ground. I'm too tired to look.

Heh, you don't have to look - all you gotta do is talk to a few of the regulars around the F/SN section. ^^;;

Anyway, back to the topic~

Even though its gonna be the Fate ending, i wonder how they'll go about doing it - i for one can't wait to hear what music thay have planned for the scene. And with that in mind - OST only three weeks away. <3

[Mr. Guy]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

I want something HAPPY to come of this anime...not for it to be sad sad sad sad and end with a bawl-your-eyes-out-ending. Why can't we have a GSD-esque ending? In GSD, it didn't go well because the good guys, save for a few instances, were pwning throughout, but in FSN, there has been so much suffering so why not make a happy, uplifting ending rather than a "goodbye, Saber, *sniff*, *weep*"?

I'm still wondering if Shirou or Rin can resummon her not as a servant, but simply as Saber, to stay and be herself?

You've obviously misinterpreted the ending (and judging by the last sentence, obviously have no idea what that conversation was like). Fate True End is not a sad or depressing ending by any stretch of the imagination, that spot is reserved for HF True. Fate True probably has the most uplifting and gratifiying ending that could have been given. Finding it depressing just shows that one completely missed the whole point of the Fate arc... though I honestly can't blame you for coming to a different conclusion, what with the deviating storyline and overlooked details...

But please don't make such hateful remarks on an ending if you haven't actually played through it. While summaries can be find for understanding certain points, they by no means contain even a minute percentage of the depth the actual scenes hold.

[Prodigious]

Well even if it's the Fate ending, Shirou better get to use his UBW or I'll die.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by Angelsama

You haven't read all his posts then.

For FSN, I want the never-made Fate "good" ending, which in this case would be a GSD-esque Saber pwns the living hell out of Gil and Kirei, and lives happily with Shirou, who goes and gets her a lion plushie . Saber's sad face is a tear-jerker, but when Saber smiles, it's probably the prettiest one in anime thus far.

And on top of that, I want an F/HA sequel so we can see the lighter sides of servants' personalities, like the bookish/housewifely/quiet-as-a-mouse Rider that makes sure everything's done and then huggles around with Sakura without anyone noticing, the Saber that has that beautiful smile of hers worn more often, Caster WITHOUT ACTUALLY HIDING HER FACE UNDER THAT FUGLY OUTFIT, and more of Gil and Assassin being their I'm-teh-ROX selves. You know, sorta like Zoids Chaotic Century vs. just Vanilla Zoids, the latter of which is far more laid back and happy-natured?

As for the Arturian Myth, yes, once and future king and the whole nine yards, but trouble is always brewing, isn't it? I say type-moon needs to make a sequel, with lots and lots more Saber, because it's hard to ever get enough of her.

[Village Idiot]

What I'm more interested in is how they will do the Epilogue?

I'm hoping right before the last shot of Saber, it shows an older Shirou walking through his UBW.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

For FSN, I want the never-made Fate "good" ending, which in this case would be a GSD-esque Saber pwns the living hell out of Gil and Kirei, and lives happily with Shirou, who goes and gets her a lion plushie . Saber's sad face is a tear-jerker, but when Saber smiles, it's probably the prettiest one in anime thus far.

Already been made.

Its called UBW - Good Ending.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

For FSN, I want the never-made Fate "good" ending, which in this case would be a GSD-esque Saber pwns the living hell out of Gil and Kirei, and lives happily with Shirou, who goes and gets her a lion plushie . Saber's sad face is a tear-jerker, but when Saber smiles, it's probably the prettiest one in anime thus far.

And on top of that, I want an F/HA sequel so we can see the lighter sides of servants' personalities, like the bookish/housewifely/quiet-as-a-mouse Rider that makes sure everything's done and then huggles around with Sakura without anyone noticing, the Saber that has that beautiful smile of hers worn more often, Caster WITHOUT ACTUALLY HIDING HER FACE UNDER THAT FUGLY OUTFIT, and more of Gil and Assassin being their I'm-teh-ROX selves. You know, sorta like Zoids Chaotic Century vs. just Vanilla Zoids, the latter of which is far more laid back and happy-natured?

As for the Arturian Myth, yes, once and future king and the whole nine yards, but trouble is always brewing, isn't it? I say type-moon needs to make a sequel, with lots and lots more Saber, because it's hard to ever get enough of her.

Your thoughts are antithesis of Fate/Stay Night is all about. What makes it so great and epic, it is concept where being extraordinary meant sacrifice. Sometimes you have to make a stand for your principle or your beloved one, and this story has these elements as strongest selling point. Being a hero is not cheap and the story makes this premise as focal point of the narration.

[Mriaow]

Boy! Some people here can just never stop with the complaints, can they? Seriously, the anime is gonna wrap up next week, can't people just sit back and enjoy what is left of the anime? I'm all for a happy ending but it's looking pretty dead set for a Fate ending, now it's not my preferred ending(I'll bawl my eyes out for Saber's departure), it's still quiet beautiful and will be memorable(to some).

Just my 2 cents on the matter, not trying to shove my opinion down anyone's throats...

[stormy001_M1A2]

What I forgot to add is, happiness can be gained from realization of your destiny and your role. Not just flesh based pleasures but what makes us inside. I cannot imagine a happier ending then realization of your inner question and finally able to answer it.

This is Saber's Ending in Fate route.

[Hemisphere]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

Your thoughts are antithesis of Fate/Stay Night is all about. What makes it so great and epic, it is concept where being extraordinary meant sacrifice. Sometimes you have to make a stand for your principle or your beloved one, and this story has these elements as strongest selling point. Being a hero is not cheap and the story makes this premise as focal point of the narration.

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

What I forgot to add is, happiness can be gained from realization of your destiny and your role. Not just flesh based pleasures but what makes us inside. I cannot imagine a happier ending then realization of your inner question and finally able to answer it.

This is Saber's Ending in Fate route.

Ping pong! We have a winner!

[SailorMoon4ever]

It really doesnt matter if theres nothing after this series I enjoyed it is all that matters.

[Demongod86]

Realization what? Inner question huh? If Saber disappears and leaves, she goes back, gets stabbed, dies. Done. And unless a hell of a lot of people need King Arthur again, she's not going to come back. The fact is that while being heroic does take sacrifice, Saber sacrificed so much, and Shirou also went through a lot of hell, saw sides of people he'd rather never have seen (Shinji, Kuzuki, Kirei), and had his friends suffer as well (Sakura, Rin). And for all that, what does he come away with? The girl he fell in love with leaving to die with him powerless to stop it? What's so beautiful about THAT?

If that were me, I'd certainly be feeling empty...and heck, even as a viewer, I'm also feeling sort of cheated. We the viewers go all this way with Saber, hoping she could somehow change her tragic destiny, see that people in the here and now love her, that she has a feminine side and to embrace that and become happy...and now just to find out that whoops, everything's pointless, she's going to go back and do as she intended from day 1, and that is to die...so then what the hell did all of her changing throughout the series MEAN? If those changes accomplish nothing, what was their point? Hell, what was the entire point of the series if nothing CHANGES? Oh, yeah, fine, a whacko student, a shady teacher, and some random priest have disappeared.

A sacrifice is only that if it LEADS to something. In chess, if you sacrifice a piece, you either win something equivalent back in terms of material, or you flat out win because of it. But if you simply LOSE the piece, that's not a sacrifice, that's simply losing the piece. In this case, Saber leaving is like losing a piece in chess. It doesn't accomplish anything, doesn't pay off at all...Saber goes through all of those sacrifices to gain some mental reconciliation and then just to die? Well whoopty frigging doo, yay, a lifetime of sacrifice, and a few sceonds in comparison of happiness before dying. Am I the only one that somehow says that things don't add up here?

It's not just unfair within the context of the anime, but withOUT the context of the anime...as Saber was going through these changes, the viewers were going along with her, and for those of us that haven't played the game, we were hoping that Shirou would wind up fighting the winning fight, which was to keep the girl he fell in love with, for all of the blood he shed for her, and for all of the sweat that poured down his face worrying sick for her and caring for her.

And in the end, are people going to say that having Shirou and the viewers alike simply be left with nothing is a beautiful ending? It sort of makes me question why the hell we the viewers went on this journey to begin with. The worst part about it is that unlike Hamlet that murdered Polonius or Oedipus that killed his father, Romeo that was too much of an emo to live for another ten minutes, etc... that Saber WASN'T truly guilty of anything besides doing her best in a situation which probably nobody could have done better (or my Arturian myth knowledge may be wrong here). But yet, just like all of the other Greek/Shakespearean tragic heroes, she just goes the same way and dies?

That's not what I call beautiful. That's what I call bullshit. You know, kind of like the Shinn fans called GSD's ending BS, well, as a Saber fan, I'm calling this ending BS x 10. Sacrifices or not, part of being a hero in my book is to not fold to something you try to avoid to begin with.

[Scep]

lol dont ever compare GSD"s ending with anything else, itll get owned XD but anyway, its more of the touching part that's good of the anime. So what if nothing is actually accomplished at the end? It dosent add up to anything, anyway. If sber stays back there, so what? Itll just make the ending harder.

ps: wow, 21 users viewing this thread XD

[Demongod86]

As ridiculous as Gundam SEED Destiny's ending may have been to some with "LACUS PWNZ LOLOL, TEH ENDZORZ", if it didn't work, it was because the victor was so blatantly determined long before that. If the protagonist won, it was consistent, and if the antagonist took even one episode, it was a fluke. But here, things were far more evenly matched and Saber had an uphill climb the whole way (with perhaps Rider being the only "easy" matchup, if that), and I don't know about everyone that didn't play the game, but I would really have liked it for Saber to be rewarded with a blissful happiness, not just death.

[Scep]

Kira was in godmode all the way, lets not talk about that >.> ILl say, Shirou pretty much was able to pull something out of the bag for every fight XD now thats amazing XD. Anyway, the directors say there would be a different ending. Dont lose hope. XD

[Demongod86]

A different ending? Let me guess...Saber is ready to try and disappear but out of nowhere, you see a little kid wearing a blue cloak with an orange wheel on his back asking Shirou "do you want to keep her?". Shirou of course, chooses yes. And whoops, when Saber tries to disappear, guess what? She can't. Which means she's stuck in the present. Wait, stuck? Never mind that! GLOMP!

Yeah....riiiiiiiiiight. I wish we can have as happy an ending as the FFX2 good ending...though somehow I doubt it'll be happening.

[Alu]

Haven't you people learned its impossible to reason with Demongod on this subject..

He wants a "happy ending" and no matter how many times we explain that the path of sacrifice & tragedy would be the one best applied to the series because of all its development.., he just will not acept it..

Hence.. I belive he will be wishing for the "happy end" even after the anime ends...
So.., as a advice of someone who once tried persuade him of the "proper" concepts.., don't waste your time..., he will not give in

Besides.., he's already started to bring his Gundam SEED references so..

@Village_Idiot :

Originally Posted by Village Idiot

What I'm more interested in is how they will do the Epilogue?

I'm hoping right before the last shot of Saber, it shows an older Shirou walking through his UBW.

That was something I overlooked and I have to say.., you did a great work catching it; since it is after all.. Very possible.

One thing is for sure now.., Shirou will not make his UBW in the anime.., but I guess regarding the Epilogue we might be surprised with some aspects that might give us a better conclusion of him becoming Archer.

Thus that option you sugested would be indeed worthy of a great ending, here's for me hopeing to see it aswell

[Village Idiot]

I'm just ignoring his posts.

And Final Fantasy X-2 sucked.

[Darkside]

I liked the idea of the epilogue that Village Idiot posted above... that would be the best way to now that I think about it.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

What I forgot to add is, happiness can be gained from realization of your destiny and your role. Not just flesh based pleasures but what makes us inside. I cannot imagine a happier ending then realization of your inner question and finally able to answer it.

This is Saber's Ending in Fate route.

That's all fine and dandy, but Shirou is still going to spend the rest of his life alone. That is NOT a happy ending regardless.

I didn't start watching this show because I wanted to see Tsukihime's ending with new characters. I watched it because I was hoping for a UBW or HF story. Ever since they glued the second half of the story to that of the Fate arc, I could care less now about this show. I'm completely over tragic endings(and Saber returning to her own time now after she and Shirou profess their love for each other in the primes of their lives, is a complete tragic ending). But whatever. I'm not even going to post in the Fate forum anymore. Haruhi's got my attention now.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Realization what? Inner question huh? If Saber disappears and leaves, she goes back, gets stabbed, dies. Done. And unless a hell of a lot of people need King Arthur again, she's not going to come back. The fact is that while being heroic does take sacrifice, Saber sacrificed so much, and Shirou also went through a lot of hell, saw sides of people he'd rather never have seen (Shinji, Kuzuki, Kirei), and had his friends suffer as well (Sakura, Rin). And for all that, what does he come away with? The girl he fell in love with leaving to die with him powerless to stop it? What's so beautiful about THAT?

It is beautiful because Saber is self actualizing herself. Go read Maslow if you don't understand what I am saying. Saber basically fulfilling her last tier in Maslow heirachy of needs that is spiriitual acknowledgement of herself. The highest form of happiness.

Shirou comes away with true, tampered idealism of hero. No more he will become a hero out of blindness cause by his principle but rather by his empathy with people that he sworn to protect. No more he will be selfish hero but rather a hero because it is a right thing to do, not out of self made pride.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

If that were me, I'd certainly be feeling empty...and heck, even as a viewer, I'm also feeling sort of cheated. We the viewers go all this way with Saber, hoping she could somehow change her tragic destiny, see that people in the here and now love her, that she has a feminine side and to embrace that and become happy...and now just to find out that whoops, everything's pointless, she's going to go back and do as she intended from day 1, and that is to die...so then what the hell did all of her changing throughout the series MEAN? If those changes accomplish nothing, what was their point? Hell, what was the entire point of the series if nothing CHANGES? Oh, yeah, fine, a whacko student, a shady teacher, and some random priest have disappeared.

It is clear that you limit yourself to your own delusions of happiness. There are more things out there than limitations of flesh.

Not all changes have to be physical or tangible. Changes can come in abstract form.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

A sacrifice is only that if it LEADS to something. In chess, if you sacrifice a piece, you either win something equivalent back in terms of material, or you flat out win because of it. But if you simply LOSE the piece, that's not a sacrifice, that's simply losing the piece. In this case, Saber leaving is like losing a piece in chess. It doesn't accomplish anything, doesn't pay off at all...Saber goes through all of those sacrifices to gain some mental reconciliation and then just to die? Well whoopty frigging doo, yay, a lifetime of sacrifice, and a few sceonds in comparison of happiness before dying. Am I the only one that somehow says that things don't add up here?

Not all sacrifice give you big returns or equalivent trade. Sometimes it is matter of principle, not material. You argument is determinalist in material consideration. Have you ever considered Saber's spiritual and conscience circumstances before you applying your too earthly concepts of happniess?

Originally Posted by Demongod86

It's not just unfair within the context of the anime, but withOUT the context of the anime...as Saber was going through these changes, the viewers were going along with her, and for those of us that haven't played the game, we were hoping that Shirou would wind up fighting the winning fight, which was to keep the girl he fell in love with, for all of the blood he shed for her, and for all of the sweat that poured down his face worrying sick for her and caring for her.

If Shirou have any decency and backbone, he will let Saber go and resolve her heart pain. It is not easy on anybody's conscience if you the one who is responsible for destruction of your own hard earned kingdom and your heir. She comes into the War as a wounded hero in spirit, and Shirou will let her go in order for her to cure her heartsickness. That what made him a true hero, a person who loved Saber enough to let her finish her business so she can rest with clear heart.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And in the end, are people going to say that having Shirou and the viewers alike simply be left with nothing is a beautiful ending? It sort of makes me question why the hell we the viewers went on this journey to begin with. The worst part about it is that unlike Hamlet that murdered Polonius or Oedipus that killed his father, Romeo that was too much of an emo to live for another ten minutes, etc... that Saber WASN'T truly guilty of anything besides doing her best in a situation which probably nobody could have done better (or my Arturian myth knowledge may be wrong here). But yet, just like all of the other Greek/Shakespearean tragic heroes, she just goes the same way and dies?

You are wrong when you asserted there is nothing in the end. Saber is finally resolved her inner conflict and Shirou grown wiser about heroism. There is always a shadow in the daylight, and there is tunnel of light in darkness. There is no absolutes in reality.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

That's not what I call beautiful. That's what I call bullshit. You know, kind of like the Shinn fans called GSD's ending BS, well, as a Saber fan, I'm calling this ending BS x 10. Sacrifices or not, part of being a hero in my book is to not fold to something you try to avoid to begin with.

I can call your thinking is bullshit too, since you did not give any thoughts about inner workings of the characters we discussed here. All you care about is pleasures of physical and superficial happiness which did will not last long.

GSD is horribly written and absolutely crap. I dunno why you bring this series into this discussion. I would rather compare Fate/Stay Night to Kenshin OVA Reminiscence which I felt more appropiate.

Kinoko Nasu wrote Fate story with motif of inner happniess and realization of destiny as ending for the characters. Can't you at least respect that?