2012-01-28, 21:27 | Link #27361 |
Endless Sorceror
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
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Not to mention, even if there was absolutely no chance given to Erika to find out the truth, she still had the chance to win the games in a different way: By finding a truth everyone will accept, or trapping the GM in a logic error.
She lost of course, because she's the villain. Had Battler not had his epiphany and stopped her, "Natsuhi is the Culprit" would've been the end all truth. I also think Battler did give Erika a chance in EP6 - The love duel really beats the Shkannon thing over your head, but Erika refused to pay attention to any of it. |
2012-01-28, 21:38 | Link #27362 | |
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This is why I'm starting to respect Will a little, when I was never much of a fan of him in the past. At least he does try to understand, even when he doesn't like the solution, and even when the solution breaks Van Dine's Twenty Rules. |
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2012-01-28, 22:08 | Link #27363 |
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Was Erika truly tricked in the parlour scene in EP5? I mean, at that point in time, there was no Meta-Erika. And that scene was shown through Piece-Battler's eyes, who wasn't a Detective during that scene, and thus his PoV wasn't reliable.
For all we know, Erika only saw either Shannon or Kanon and never bothered looking for the other one. This wouldn't be the first time Erika makes a mistake like this. She pretty much made a similar mistake during the 1st Twilight of EP5, when she wouldn't check the corpses properly and she even had the Detective Authority at that point, so she could very well have done it. Erika was too focused on framing Natsuhi during EP5 to actually bother with anything else.
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2012-01-28, 22:23 | Link #27364 | ||||||||||
The True Culprit
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And yes, Beatrice's deceptions, for all their faults, cannot be equated with Bern's and Lambda's deceptions because she wasn't doing it "for the lulz", and she didn't enjoy it. Quote:
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How can such a one-sided form of bullying even be fun for Bern and Lambda? Erika doesn't even a snowball's chance in hell. Quote:
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2012-01-28, 22:40 | Link #27365 | ||
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2012-01-28, 22:50 | Link #27366 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-01-28, 22:56 | Link #27367 | ||
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Also, random question is random, but I was wondering if there were some specific survivor groups people would've liked to see play out in a Game. I can't help thinking what a Natsuhi / Rosa / Kyrie power struggle would have look like, lately. |
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2012-01-28, 23:02 | Link #27368 | ||||
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... it's too bad it wasn't just 'uncomfortable' for me. Sure, it's very acceptable if Beato had the important reason of having herself being understood making him believe the people he loved were being killed. After all it was only 'uncomfortable' for Battler. Quote:
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Surely Erika wouldn't use the info to get the victory her master wants which is this by the way: Quote:
Oh no, let's tell her the truth in EP 6. Battler will lose the game but since he's playing it with a meaningless goal why should he care? Sorry, I really can't agree with you. First, because I find that's morally wrong to put someone else under mind torture for personal reasons. Beato isn't more excusable than Battler. Second, because you're basically saying that if Battler wanted to do the moral thing he should have basically let Erika win, making pointless to start the game in the first place and let fall apart the illusion of the witch Battler is trying to protect. If you were in his shoes would you really sacrifice Beato to save Erika? |
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2012-01-28, 23:19 | Link #27369 | |||
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2012-01-28, 23:28 | Link #27370 | |||||||||
The True Culprit
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On top of that, Battler is supposed to be the good guy. Even if Erika is going to use that information to do something Battler doesn't like, wouldn't he rather she have a fair chance? What's the point in beating her if she's handicapped? How is that respectful to her whatsoever? And EP8 certainly shows us that Battler respects her as an opponent, so what gives? Ontop of that, why is Bernkastel tolerating Erika having a handicap? She seems to know the game pretty damn well, so why is she tolerating Erika being kept from doing her job to the best of her ability? Especially after she went through all the work of minmaxing her into a god mode sue? Quote:
Not that it matters, because BATTLER winning or losing is entirely irrelevant. Battler's goal in EP6 is to demonstrate that he understands Beatrice's game. As long as he does that, victory or loss is completely meaningless; it's just a demonstration of his knowledge. And with that being the case, Erika is his witness to this truth. WHY is she being handicapped in a way that damages her ability to evaluate Battler's wisdom, and why is he putting up with it? Quote:
Beato is implied to be forced into doing what she does by Lambda, and even then a person can still be sympathetic even if they're not morally right. Quote:
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2012-01-28, 23:43 | Link #27371 | |
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And she doesn't lose in Battler's game because Battler deceives her about what she's capable of doing. Quite the opposite, he very explicitly gives her certain additional powers (and offers more and is rejected!) which he stands by even when they prove detrimental to him! Battler doesn't escape the Logic Error because the seals on his room were somehow not as Erika thought they were. Beatrice's solution had to obey the same rules. That's rather a bit different than the situation in ep5. Again, I think this is a lot easier if we simply conclude that Erika can in fact do what people tell her that she can do, agree that the parlor scene is a problem we don't yet have an adequate solution for in light of this, and continue with the assumption that she is losing not because she is being intentionally misled about her own abilities but because in her arrogance she isn't drawing the proper conclusions from the information her abilities allow her to gather. I have no idea why this is objectionable.
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2012-01-29, 00:00 | Link #27373 |
The True Culprit
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All of Renall just said, times ten. In my opinion, this whole "Erika has a disconnect of information" thing is a really huge truckload of worms that's really just making a mess of everything else that TOUCHES the issue, as this conversation has demonstrated for several pages now.
So do we want ALL of EP5 and EP6 (and possibly EP8 too) to be a total mess, or do we want to make the EP5 parlor scene the only problematic, iffy, confusing part, here?
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2012-01-29, 01:04 | Link #27376 | ||||
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Still, I was amused that she intended to warp Natsuhi Culprit Theory to fit every single episode, even though it would make, at least, EP2 beyond silly. Quote:
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I do agree that none of us seem able to convert others to our own ways of thinking about the matter, though. |
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2012-01-29, 01:22 | Link #27378 | |||||
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As for why she'd overlook things, assuming she had been informed beforehand that everyone would be gathered in the parlour at that point, she probably just didn't bother checking things further. Notice that the duct-tapes were pretty much used because of lack of knowledge of what would happen. Quote:
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Hell, she couldn't even care about pointing Natsuhi as the culprit. She even said she'd have blamed Krauss or Kinzo had Natsuhi allowed her to.
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2012-01-29, 01:28 | Link #27379 | |||||
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Regardless, Meta-Erika was present before the Parlor Scene. I know that for a fact. Hell, you could argue she existed during the "Kinzo Escape" scene. What criteria are we using to determine if Meta-Erika exists or not, since she's ALWAYS meta-aware to some capacity? Quote:
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2012-01-29, 01:39 | Link #27380 | |
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And Lambda seemed to have formed her entire gameboard narrative around a red-herring Natsuhi culprit theme, by blackmailing her piece with the MF19YAO, and removing Krauss, the only person who would've staunchly remained her ally, throughout. It's been so vague in this discussion, because the Parlor scene when she's introduced is where the "everyone that in this room" red is given. However, the same issue exists in the parlor scene where she accuses Natsuhi, and she did explicitly gather everyone together for that. It's even vaguely described as the pieces being compelled to attend because of her Detective Authority thing. |
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