Huh, I guess I'd forgotten just how off-model some of original shots looked then. Still, if you compare those to Gil's appearance at the end of episode 2 or in episode 5, then even the improved version is fairly average. But yes, I stand corrected, the improvements were noticeable after all and certainly quite welcome, since this episode totally deserves the utmost perfectionism on the creators' part.
So yeah, Saber totally asked for it and Rider was actually pretty nice overall.
Don't forget that she derided him for no reason before the discussion even began.
Saber would have been asking for it since episode 5 if the anime had kept how ridiculously self-righteous and insufferable she was behaving towards Rider just after he saved her life.
Spoiler for just look at what a piece of work Saber was in this:
Soon after, as thought suddenly remembered, the sound of the waves smashing against the cliff and the bustle of faraway streets crept back into the night sky. Lancer’s Master must have released the barrier cast in the neighboring area.
Saber gazed at the last person standing on the battlefield, Rider, with complicated feelings.
"... So, why did you come here, King of Conquerors?"
"Ah, I’ve never considered that properly."
Faced with Saber’s inquiry, the stalwart Servant appeared as if it didn’t concern him and shrugged nonchalantly.
"All those things like reasons and plans, those bothersome stuff, should be left for future historians to find a reason to give me. Heroes like us only need to obey our hearts’ desire, and gallop along the battlefield with our boiling blood."
"... That’s something only kings can say."
Saber’s disappointed reply was adamant. She believed in the chaste way of knights, a world away from Rider’s barbaric principles used justify his actions.
"Oh? Are you saying my way of kingship is alien to you? Hmph, that’s just natural."
Rider snorted, and ignored Saber’s defiant glare.
"All ways of kingship are unique. For I, who am a king, is as incompatible to you, who are also a king, as fire is to water... You are trying to split this world into two clear bands of black and white."
"That is what I desire. Today, at this place, I’m also going to – "
"Enough, enough, don’t be so vigorous."
Rider gave a small smile and pointed at Saber’s left hand.
"As Alexander, I won’t take advantage over your weakness like others would. Saber, fulfil your promise with Lancer first. Then I would duel with Lancer or you, whoever might be the victor in the battle between the two of you."
"..."
Saber was about to rebuke, but her left thumb is too much of a handicap before Rider. It wouldn’t do to underestimate the battle prowess of this Heroic Spirit, who defeated Berserker in one blow.
Yeah, Gil was rude, but so was she. Rider was trying to be diplomatic until even his patience ran out for her. I swear, he should be the mediator of the war (Ruler class?) with his saintly patience to deal with both of them.
Anyway, I really like they added the Gil laughing and mocking sadistically at Saber while being sort of a pal/understanding of Rider. He acknowledged Rider as worthy enemy which was important.
__________________
"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Yeah, you could already guess in the original airing that Gilgamesh was mostly okay with what Rider was saying thanks to his silence and facial expression alone, but the new scenes really helped convey their mutual understanding and acknowledgement, as well as set up a future physical confrontation between them, which I really hope does happen and greatly look forward to.
It's rather amusing actually how Saber is presented as this very decent and upstanding individual and Gilgamesh is presented as, well, a douchebag, and yet he got along with lovable big bro Rider so much better than she did. It truly shows how these aren't black and white characters at all. And in that same vein, Gil's previously omitted line that he can feel genuine compassion towards his people and subjects is a nice piece of characterisation which also helps show he's a more multi-dimensional character than he might appear at first.
And yeah, after reading that excerpt, it seems Saber's issues with Rider had been set up before the "Mad Feast" even took place. And as her remark towards him in episode 13 showed, it's not a grudge she'll let go of so easily. Rider will need to be a patient man indeed to further deal with the little girl.
Yeah, you could already guess in the original airing that Gilgamesh was mostly okay with what Rider was saying thanks to his silence and facial expression alone, but the new scenes really helped convey their mutual understanding and acknowledgement, as well as set up a future physical confrontation between them, which I really hope does happen and greatly look forward to.
Gilgamesh likes Rider a lot. He's probably the only Servant in the fourth and fifth war he actually respected. Sure he likes Saber but as potential possession and he has some degree of respect for fellow demi gods Cu Chulainn and Herakles but nowhere of the level he has of Iskandar who he fully acknowledges as a rival, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Twilight
It's rather amusing actually how Saber is presented as this very decent and upstanding individual and Gilgamesh is presented as, well, a douchebag, and yet he got along with lovable big bro Rider so much better than she did. It truly shows how these aren't black and white characters at all. And in that same vein, Gil's previously omitted line that he can feel genuine compassion towards his people and subjects is a nice piece of characterisation which also helps show he's a more multi-dimensional character than he might appear at first.
You really know this by how he treats Kirei, who he obviously likes quite a bit.
Rider does like Saber as person, but he doesn't see her as a king. Partly because of her regrets. Being a king is a curse to her. One he feels sorry for her about it. He doesn't like Gil very much as a person (because of his sadistic thrill occasionally) but he fully acknowledges him and respects as fellow king. He might have been harsh with her, but he's harsh with Waver too on occasion and he cares for him a great deal.
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight
And yeah, after reading that excerpt, it seems Saber's issues with Rider had been set up before the "Mad Feast" even took place. And as her remark towards him in episode 13 showed, it's not a grudge she'll let go of so easily. Rider will need to be a patient man indeed to further deal with the little girl.
Yeap. I was when some fans accused Rider of having issues with her first. Uh huh. She didn't even thank him for saving her ass because it seems he didn't have a honorable or chaste knightly reason for her tastes.
IMO, she was acting pretty insecure. I mean, she can be 'certain' of her ideals around Gilgamesh because he's completely departed from her ideas. However Rider, deep inside, values the same things as her but the way he lives his life and kingship was the opposite. All she knew was her high moral ground and Rider pretty much crumbled the foundations of this by existing: a tyrant whose never denied himself any human pleasure who was beloved by his followers and who considers them and their bond his greatest treasure. It just blew her away. She was too narrow-minded, like he said, and she wasn't ready for that revelation.
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"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Really enjoyed the extra bits of episode 11 here and some of the fixes. The episode was definitely flowing better for sure. Gilgamesh's extra scenes were pure gold just like his hair .
Gilgamesh likes Rider a lot. He's probably the only Servant in the fourth and fifth war he actually respected. Sure he likes Saber but as potential possession and he has some degree of respect for fellow demi gods Cu Chulainn and Herakles but nowhere of the level he has of Iskandar who he fully acknowledges as a rival, IMO.
Indeed, and it was quite the pleasant surprise to see him acknowledge a fellow Heroic Spirit the way he did Rider, given his track record of dismissing almost every single one in F/SN.
Quote:
Rider does like Saber as person, but he doesn't see her as a king. Partly because of her regrets. Being a king is a curse to her. One he feels sorry for her about it. He doesn't like Gil very much as a person (because of his sadistic thrill occasionally) but he fully acknowledges him and respects as fellow king. He might have been harsh with her, but he's harsh with Waver too on occasion and he cares for him a great deal.
That's definitely the feeling I got from Rider as well. He does like Saber as a person and wishes the best for her, but can't bring himself to respect and acknowledge her as a king. Whereas with Gilgamesh, even though the King of Heroes' personality may not particularly strike Rider's fancy, the latter still fully sees him as a fellow king, hence the two of them mutually coming to the same conclusion that a grand duel between them is inevitable.
The dynamic between the three kings was certainly top notch and it's interesting to note how, in a way, Rider possesses the best of both worlds. Saber's good nature as a person and Gilgamesh's might as a king. Saber positions herself below her people and Gilgamesh positions himself above his people, whereas Rider, while nonetheless following his personal greed and ambition, treats his people as equals and rides together with them as true and understanding comrades-in-arms. His is definitely the healthiest harmony of the three in terms of kingship.
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IMO, she was acting pretty insecure. I mean, she can be 'certain' of her ideals around Gilgamesh because he's completely departed from her ideas. However Rider, deep inside, values the same things as her but the way he lives his life and kingship was the opposite. All she knew was her high moral ground and Rider pretty much crumbled the foundations of this by existing: a tyrant whose never denied himself any human pleasure who was beloved by his followers and who considers them and their bond his greatest treasure. It just blew her away. She was too narrow-minded, like he said, and she wasn't ready for that revelation.
Yeah, Gilgamesh's views on kingship and his ideals and beliefs in general must be completely outlandish to Saber, hence the way she hastily and self-righteously labelled him as insane. The two being so different also seems to be part of the reason why Saber amuses Gilgamesh so much. As king, she took upon herself the thorny path of a martyr, while he took the divine path of a god to be revered by all, basically. He utilises his position to aggrandise himself and enact his word alone as the law, while she utilises it to to bind herself and sacrifice herself for everyone else. They're complete opposites and while a girl like that may totally be Gil's cup of tea, he can never reach her or have any true influence or impact on her as far as a clash of ideals goes.
But, as you said, Rider possesses a lot of common ground with her, and as such his words resounded with her and tore away at her in a way Gil's sadistic mockery of her could never hope to achieve. I actually even forgot for a moment that she'd brought it upon herself and felt sorry for her as she melancholically looked on at Rider's bond with his army, realising that for all her pretty ideals she'd never once reached her people's hearts the way Rider had just done with his own. A tough lesson for the would-be King of Knights indeed, which hopefully she'll learn from and show some sort of response towards in the second half of the show.
Indeed, and it was quite the pleasant surprise to see him acknowledge a fellow Heroic Spirit the way he did Rider, given his track record of dismissing almost every single one in F/SN.
They have those worthy enemies/enemy mine thing going on. Gilgamesh loves arrogant adversaries, but that one of a 'high quality' of person. When a wish is greater than itself. He didn't respect Rider's wish until he explained about it. Rider wants to take the world by himself in his human limitations at all. It isn't just "Be human and play video games with Waver."
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight
The dynamic between the three kings was certainly top notch and it's interesting to note how, in a way, Rider possesses the best of both worlds. Saber's good nature as a person and Gilgamesh's might as a king. Saber positions herself below her people and Gilgamesh positions himself above his people, whereas Rider, while nonetheless following his personal greed and ambition, treats his people as equals and rides together with them as true and understanding comrades-in-arms. His is definitely the healthiest harmony of the three in terms of kingship.
Gilgamesh is more like the god-king (who wasn't quite human). Arthur's more like the ideal-king (not ideal as perfect, but as something without the sentiment of humanity). Iskandar is the human king, a human who reaches the pinnacle of humanity.
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight
I actually even forgot for a moment that she'd brought it upon herself and felt sorry for her as she melancholically looked on at Rider's bond with his army, realising that for all her pretty ideals she'd never once reached her people's hearts the way Rider had just done with his own. A tough lesson for the would-be King of Knights indeed, which hopefully she'll learn from and show some sort of response towards in the second half of the show.
Spoiler for she was quite pitiful:
Saber was shaken to her core. It wasn’t the strength of the Noble Phantasm that she was afraid of, it was the fact that such a Noble Phantasm had de-stabilized her beliefs. It shook the beliefs that she held in pride.
This flawless cooperation…
This bond with subjects that became a Noble Phantasm...
It was something that the idealistic King of Knights pursued for her whole life, yet even to the end, it was something she could not obtain.
__________________
"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Huh, I guess I'd forgotten just how off-model some of original shots looked then. Still, if you compare those to Gil's appearance at the end of episode 2 or in episode 5, then even the improved version is fairly average. But yes, I stand corrected, the improvements were noticeable after all and certainly quite welcome, since this episode totally deserves the utmost perfectionism on the creators' part.
They still use different palette than usual, but at least they improving the detail and make it actually not seems too inferior with the usual palette.
There are noticeable improvements and a lot of off-models fixed, but they don't fix Saber ones with her nose. Funny, I thought that was the most glaring mistake and they will fix that.
Indeed, and it was quite the pleasant surprise to see him acknowledge a fellow Heroic Spirit the way he did Rider, given his track record of dismissing almost every single one in F/SN.
if only Nasu actually decided to write the gil vs lancer fight in FSN...
Hmm, time to watch episode 11 and see what was missing in the Grail Dialogue.
I'm still waiting for Waver or anyone to call Rider on being a petty war-monger who'd kill other people for the sake of his own greed.
I mean, seriously, his wish is to be made flesh so he can try and conquer the modern world? He'd probably be a tinpot dictator. Or if he actually gained real power, he'd get countless people killed in pointless wars.
Lets face it. If Rider actually was head of one of the world's major powers now--as I'm sure he would like--we'd hate him because he'd pull a ton of countries into wars and make a total mess. He's a deceptively likable villain.
And, based on his legend, once he finished conquering he'd be hailed as a hero, even by those he conquered. What's it matter if those he conquered were from long, long ago or in modern time?
And, based on his legend, once he finished conquering he'd be hailed as a hero, even by those he conquered. What's it matter if those he conquered were from long, long ago or in modern time?
Is that one of the powers Nasu gave him? If so then it's worthless because it's magical influence. If not then it doesn't matter because it's not canon.
No one in a well-off country is going to hail someone else as a hero for starting a war with them.
Is that one of the powers Nasu gave him? If so then it's worthless because it's magical influence. If not then it doesn't matter because it's not canon.
No one in a well-off country is going to hail someone else as a hero for starting a war with them.
I'm still waiting for Waver or anyone to call Rider on being a petty war-monger who'd kill other people for the sake of his own greed.
Lol. Couldn't be more far from what happens. It's the opposite, actually (episode 13 didn't adapt the dream fully, but this is what Waver sees in his contract link):
Spoiler for Waver's dream. People flocking to Rider to share his dream:
From the distant west, an army arrived, sweeping rolls of dust at its wake. No one dared to underestimate this invading army since the beginning.
Rumors about its might had already swept through the entire country like a gale long before this army arrived. Usurping the throne of the small country Macedonia in the far west country of Greece, the young king had since then subdued the neighboring countries in the blink of an eye, and became the leader of Corinth.
Alexander –
It was said that his ambition crossed over the Straits, and he had wanted to extend his insolent neck into this great empire of Persia.
Of course, none of the brave warriors who swore utter loyalty to protect their glorious country would bow his head before the invader. The warriors bet their augustness and honor as soldiers upon this and countered the attack of Alexander’s army. However, the soaring morale of the enemy that appeared before them terrified them horribly, and they shivered in fright.
It was not due to the command of gods or the call of the greater good; all were only to fulfil a tyrant’s desire of conquest. However – why would these soldiers have such a soaring morale, such a mighty fighting spirit? Even those warriors who swore to protect their country till their death could not contend with them.
However, it was not this that truly shocked the defeated generals.
Young Alexander, standing in front of the captives, opened his mouth and spoke as if he was a kid pulling a prank – what I want isn’t your country. I want to keep progressing toward the East.
Then, is this country merely a foothold for his continuing conquest? – No, of course not.
Then, could it be that his ambitions even exceeded the Iranian plains, and wants to conquer distant India? – No, it’s the East even further away than that.
Seeing that none of his foreign subjects could guess his intentions, the King said loudly.
“My goal is the end of the world. My destination is the furthest border of the East. I want to behold Oceanus with my own two eyes. I want leave my footprints at the beach beside that endless sea.”
Of course, no one believed in his words, and they all considered it as boasts that he used to conceal his true intentions.
But this man really did return the domination of his conquered lands to the local nobles, and brought his army away with him continuing towards the East. The defeated generals finally understood when they watched, dumbstruck, his back disappearing into the distance.
None of those ‘reasons’ that the tyrant said were lies.
He was only progressing towards the East, and swept away those who stood in his way.
How pitiful and deplorable were those soldiers who discarded all their glory and riches and left their homelands to follow him!
At first, they also felt indignant.
And they thought how deplorable they are that they have to fight due to such a foolish reason.
But very soon they, who had lost everything, suddenly thought.
What would they see behind that mountain –?
What would they see at the other side of the sky –?
To explore the unknown world; isn’t that the dream that all men had once possessed in their youth?
But as their age increased those men, who had to cement their positions and keep climbing up the social ladder, simply discarded the dream of their youth for those illusionary glories and titles. Now, this man shattered their reason of existence in one night’s time – and once again ignited the dream they had longed for in their hearts.
The men who finally understood this held up the weapons in their hands once again.
They were neither heroes, nor generals- they were just ordinary youths, having just taken out their armor and weapons from the inside of the storeroom. Those hearts from which pride and willpower had been lost, regained only the heavy thumpings of their hearts at that time, and they went after the back of the great king traveling to the east.
Thus, the army of the King increased endlessly with his victories on his road of progress.
How incredible were those people if they were to be beheld by others' eyes!
Heroes who were once defeated, generals of vanquished armies, and kings who lost their throne; everyone walked together, shoulder by shoulder, with the same smile on their faces and the same light sparkling in their eyes.
Towards Oceanus –
The men called loudly together.
Forward, to the East, to the more distant East!
Until, together with ‘that man’, they behold the legendary beach.
His greed is great because it serves as role model to other people. Having ambition is a good thing in life. His model of doing things is pretty healthy. Look at his conversations with Waver as example of how he is.
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Originally Posted by Grey
I mean, seriously, his wish is to be made flesh so he can try and conquer the modern world? He'd probably be a tinpot dictator. Or if he actually gained real power, he'd get countless people killed in pointless wars.
Yeah, because he's the one who is itching to kill off his opponents, right? Except his reluctance to do it is like a huge flaw of him. He saved Saber's life twice already. He proposed dialogue and gave Assassin a chance until they spilled his hospitality and threatened his Master. He's the one who went out and reached for Lancer and Saber to propose a truce to take down Caster.
Had he want bloodshed, he could have killed Saber, Lancer and Berserker in episode 5 (as Saber observes with his chariot he would have been able to do it in that moment of distraction they had).
Alexander is better fit for Ruler Class to be a moderator of the conflict. He's been the one who keeps a modicum of humanity in the whole conflict. Not surprisingly he gets the most humane Master as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey
Lets face it. If Rider actually was head of one of the world's major powers now--as I'm sure he would like--we'd hate him because he'd pull a ton of countries into wars and make a total mess. He's a deceptively likable villain.
If we want to talk about likable villains: let's look at Saber's wish to redo history and would undo the world as it is now just because she's emo and can't accept her failures like a true king does. I'm sure most people wouldn't want the entire fucking world history changed because of a little girl's bawwfest. Sure, what happened to her Britain was tragic, but the world moved on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey
Is that one of the powers Nasu gave him? If so then it's worthless because it's magical influence. If not then it doesn't matter because it's not canon.
No one in a well-off country is going to hail someone else as a hero for starting a war with them.
He's not a magus. He doesn't have magical powers. It's a personal trait. He has charisma A (maximum for human beings). People flock to him naturally. Like, dunno, those shounen heroes who defeat their enemies? Defeat means friendship is a huge deal for him. Don't you remember his speech in episode 3? To conquer not to destroy, to master and not to humiliate, etc. That's HIS creed. He laughs at his historical portrayal, including the fact they wrote him as "short".
I'll say even a weakness since he's too nice and he needed to be more cutthroat in this war.
Look at his picture in the ED. People cheering around him after entering a city. Soldiers, citizens- everyone.
__________________
"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
If we want to talk about villains: let's look at Saber's wish to redo history and would undo the world as it is now just because she's emo and can't accept her failures like a true king does. I'm sure most people wouldn't want the entire fucking world history changed because of a little girl's bawwfest.
Given that what happens after her reign dies is a thousand years of misery, bloodshed, and oppression; I'm a bit inclined to be more lenient on her. It's even fair to say that her wish isn't even for her, it's for her people. Wanting to spare countless lives of said hardship is being a "little girl's bawwfest"?
Given that what happens after her reign dies is a thousand years of misery, bloodshed, and oppression; I'm a bit inclined to be more lenient on her. It's even fair to say that her wish isn't even for her, it's for her people. Wanting to spare countless lives of said hardship is being a "little girl's bawwfest"?
So what? It's sad, it's a tragedy, there's no deny that makes her plight sympathetic, but no less villainous if it happens. The world doesn't have to bend backwards because an agonizing idealistic ruler can't move on from her own, past failures. It's incredibly disrespectful of her to undo the past efforts and suffering of many, including her own people, because she can't deal with this.
If you've read the Fate route you know is a big flaw of hers (and those who don't and don't want to play the VN here, read it. Iskandar would have been proud of her in that scene). Which is what makes Saber actually a layered character: her huge mistakes.
__________________
"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
Hmm, time to watch episode 11 and see what was missing in the Grail Dialogue.
I'm still waiting for Waver or anyone to call Rider on being a petty war-monger who'd kill other people for the sake of his own greed.
I mean, seriously, his wish is to be made flesh so he can try and conquer the modern world? He'd probably be a tinpot dictator. Or if he actually gained real power, he'd get countless people killed in pointless wars.
Lets face it. If Rider actually was head of one of the world's major powers now--as I'm sure he would like--we'd hate him because he'd pull a ton of countries into wars and make a total mess. He's a deceptively likable villain.
You need to resist applying today's moral standard to ancient figures. The values we take as norm today has a fairly short history. And even today, people are still proud of their warring heroes in history, like the French for Napolean and the Germans for Frederick the Great.
You need to resist applying today's moral standard to ancient figures. The values we take as norm today has a fairly short history. And even today, people are still proud of their warring heroes in history, like the French for Napolean and the Germans for Frederick the Great.
Let's not even touch that some modern country leaders of 'civilized' nations can be painted as warmongers as well. But unlike Iskandar, they don't give a crap about the bond of the people and their greed isn't something as idealistic as reaching Oceanus, but go after natural resources.
I for one would welcome Rider as our overlord.
__________________
"Who would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"
when some fans accused Rider of having issues with her first. Uh huh. She didn't even thank him for saving her ass because it seems he didn't have a honorable or chaste knightly reason for her tastes. 
.
