[Manga] Naruto Chapter 599 Discussion Thread

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Azerik

The only thing that can be completely gathered from this, is Tobi looks sneakingly like Obito, and he most likely has Obito's right eye, because of how Kakashi's Kamui, and his Technique are linked to the same dimension.

Also, he doesn't really look that much older than Kakashi, so I'm not sure what half of you are talking about on that part...the one half of his face being wrinkly, could be attributed to over use of the Sharingan, which we see in Itachi to a certain extent, or like MysticNinjaJay says, scars from the boulder.

I'm pretty sure that that's just scarring from the battle and I agree that I don't think Obito looks older than Kakashi if you go by the left side of his face.

Now we know why Tobi originally had only one eye hole in his mask.

His left eye was given to Kakashi while he retained his right eye.

When he acquired Nagato's Rinnegan he must have implanted Nagato's eye in to his empty eye socket and got a new mask with holes for both eyes.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

I'm pretty sure that that's just scarring from the battle and I agree that I don't think Obito looks older than Kakashi if you go by the left side of his face.

Now we know why Tobi originally had only one eye hole in his mask.

His left eye was given to Kakashi while he retained his right eye.

When he acquired Nagato's Rinnegan he must have implanted Nagato's eye in to his empty eye socket and got a new mask with holes for both eyes.

Except he did have a sharingan in his unseen eye. You know, the one he used for Izanagi? But we already know he has plenty of Sharingans.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Unless those mistakes are intentional to show that Tobi is not Obito, but he/it thinks he/it is. .

well if that was the case these would be zetsu's recordings I would imagine which would mean that they should be perfect since he just captured what he saw.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I guess we can throw away those pesky databooks.

I for one like that Kakashi was much older when he became a chuunin.

lol I never got into the databooks although i didnt doubt their legitimacy. i do also like kakashi being advanced from the others, which he still is i guess since he passed and at least obito didnt at first. but it was still off by a few years.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

When he acquired Nagato's Rinnegan he must have implanted Nagato's eye in to his empty eye socket and got a new mask with holes for both eyes.

he always had another hidden sharingan in his left eye socket to use izanagi for emergency situations like sasuke's amaterasu and konan's paper bomb trap

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by confused n lonely

I'm going out on a limb and say tobi is really Rin. After all she was in the chapter too and no one really knows if she is really dead or not, at least I don't think.

Rin is dead.

Kakashi confirmed it in one of the previous chapters.

All of the people close to him (father, sensei, team mates) died and he specifically said he wasn't able to save Rin.

But oh look one of them survived! Obito and Kakashi have some catching up to do.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Except he did have a sharingan in his unseen eye. You know, the one he used for Izanagi? But we already know he has plenty of Sharingans.

Oh yeah I forgot about that. That glass tank full of Sharingan eyes behind the table where Tobi operated on Sasuke was freaky.

I wonder what Obito's full background is.

I'm guessing that Madara trained him since they know each other and have similar abilities. But where is the justification for Obito going from a kind little Chunnin getting outclassed by Kakashi and Gai to a Kage level ninja as twisted and evil as Tobi? How is Kishimoto going to rationalize the enormous power increase and dramatic ideology change? Madara randomly finding a dying Uchiha kid under a boulder and deciding to train him as his apprentice simply will not do.

Like Gaara, Nagato, Sasuke and all the other tortured souls before him Obito needs a reason to become evil. There's needs to be a believable explanation for why he became the deranged Akatsuki mastermind hellbent on taking over the world. Since this is perhaps the biggest plot point in the series (Obito's evil decisions are central to the most significant conflicts in the Naruto manga) and since Kishimoto has been building towards this reveal for 600 chapters he's got to come up with something good to have it all make sense.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

you think kishi had this all planned out? then answer this, why is minato already a hokage when obito was only 11 years old? according to the kakashi gaiden arc that kishi himself wrote, minato was only a jounin when obito, kakashi and rin were 13 years old, that's two years after the chuunin exams. even the drawing of the hokage faces in the kakashi gaiden is proof that minato wasn't hokage yet but in this chapter he's already been made hokage as the hokage faces suggest. and what about kakashi taking the chuunin exams along with obito and rin when he supposedly passed the chuunin exams at 6 years old? kakashi graduated from the ninja academy at 5 years old, he became chuunin at 6 and became jounin at 13, around the time the kakashi gaiden arc started. minato was made hokage after the war. check the kakashi gaiden chapters or your naruto wiki, it's there. if you're so sure kishi planned all this then why did he fuck up the timelines? if he had this all figured out then there wouldn't be mistakes like these.

i don't really care about the obito angle. if kishi manages to wiggle his way out of his tight corner then fine! if he doesn't, i don't really care. i'll probably just enjoy reading the posts here and cracking jokes about them. but my beef is with this chapter itself. it's just wrong. i don't mind the no-dialogues thing except for the fact that it made kishi's mistakes more obvious since i focused more on the images. i'm sure i'm not the only one who noticed this. this is the reason why this chapter irks me.

- minato could have very well been hokage during the kannabi bridge battle. the face missing is not absolute proof that he wasn't. the monument needs to be constructed. it may have not been up there because it wasn't finished. and completed by the end of that first chuunin exam
- as far as this age thing goes, maybe obito is older. by like 2 or 3 yrs. i am not a datebook reader so i don't really know, but i also don't recall ages being cited in the manga…they could have just been in the same class, kakashi 5, obito 7 or 8. the numbers make more sense in that scenario.
- somebody mentioned to me earlier that there is no need to defend kishis mistakes. they are right, i know. i just like discussing and thinking about stuff

[Dengar]

Uhhh, no, Minato became Hokage because after that battle he proceeded to end the war then and there.

[Spicy~Noodles]

None the less, I have no idea why Kishi chose Obito of all people. He was super weak sause in the Kakashi Gaiden (Thats why some no name ninjas smashed him litterally). And he has just 1 ms technique that I still don't understand how he got. So which friend did he kill to get MS kamui? Rin? Kakashi developed thinking he killed Obito. It's baffling how much of a power upgrade he got in such a short time.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Spicy~Noodles

None the less, I have no idea why Kishi chose Obito of all people. He was super weak sause in the Kakashi Gaiden (Thats why some no name ninjas smashed him litterally). And he has just 1 ms technique that I still don't understand how he got. So which friend did he kill to get MS kamui? Rin? Kakashi developed thinking he killed Obito. It's baffling how much of a power upgrade he got in such a short time.

Kishimoto probably thought of Obito as the main villain of Naruto all along.

The signs were there.

An Uchiha. One eye. A broken body. The spikey hair. Obito was always Tobi.

What I'm baffled by is indeed how the dorky little Obito we saw in flashbacks became this ultra powerful mastermind who was living in the shadow of his more talented classmates, left for dead and then somehow rivals the 4th Hokage in ability, in such a short time. I understand Obito's significance in the manga. He's the passionate young ninja dreaming of becoming Hokage who has enormous potential but doesn't pick up on things quickly so he looks like a loser and gets looked down on for his failures. He's the Naruto of his generation. The difference is somehow he became evil while Naruto learned the value of friendship and became good.

Madara obviously has a hand in whatever transformation lead Obito to become Tobi. I can't wait for Kishimoto to explain this one.

As far as the Mangekyo Sharingan is concerned I don't recall an explanation for how even Kakashi awakened it.

He's been carrying the guilt for Obito's death for years and even if he feels responsible enough for killing him what triggered him to actually awaken it when he did?

That too needs explaining.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by felix

The no dialog part is particularly fishy.

I wrote a few chapters ago about the idea that sharingan eyes can record all the things that they saw until the death of the owner. It's funny that we see a chapter with only pictures and no sound, since an eye can't record sound

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I wrote a few chapters ago about the idea that sharingan eyes can record all the things that they saw until the death of the owner. It's funny that we see a chapter with only pictures and no sound, since an eye can't record sound

I think a chapter with no dialog was simply an artistic tool by Kishimoto, tell the story solely with imagery. We learn a thing or two about Obito without anyone uttering a word and then in the last panel BAM the big reveal.

[Kowai]

I can really see naruto usin the talk-no-jutsu and turning Tobi against madara (who as I recall is on the way to wreck shit, can't wait!)

Kishi loves redeeming the villains to show that they really aren't evil but just misguided.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

Madara obviously has a hand in whatever transformation lead Obito to become Tobi. I can't wait for Kishimoto to explain this one.

Little doubt about that. It's probably been brought up already, but the Madara/Tobi that fought Minato seemed to be a full-grown adult, and not a adolescent like Kakashi, Asuma and others in Obito's age group were shown to be. I was thinking maybe the Madara that fought Minato was the original and not Obito. But that wouldn't explain how he was using the phasing abilities, because that's linked to Kamui, which is specific to Obito/Kakashi

I guess the relationship is similar to Oro/Kabuto. Madara somehow put some of his powers/abilities into Obito. Maybe he aged his body to maturity somehow too. And then the real Madara died somehow, leaving Obito to take on his identity.

[Mateus]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Little doubt about that. It's probably been brought up already, but the Madara/Tobi that fought Minato seemed to be a full-grown adult, and not a adolescent like Kakashi, Asuma and others in Obito's age group were shown to be. I was thinking maybe the Madara that fought Minato was the original and not Obito. But that wouldn't explain how he was using the phasing abilities, because that's linked to Kamui, which is specific to Obito/Kakashi

I guess the relationship is similar to Oro/Kabuto. Madara somehow put some of his powers/abilities into Obito. Maybe he aged his body to maturity somehow too. And then the real Madara died somehow, leaving Obito to take on his identity.

It's also strange (to me) that Madara gained the rinnegan shortly before his death, which was after his fight with Hashirama...was the first and second even around during the Nine tails attack, unless it was an inconsistency/discrepancy.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Little doubt about that. It's probably been brought up already, but the Madara/Tobi that fought Minato seemed to be a full-grown adult, and not a adolescent like Kakashi, Asuma and others in Obito's age group were shown to be. I was thinking maybe the Madara that fought Minato was the original and not Obito. But that wouldn't explain how he was using the phasing abilities, because that's linked to Kamui, which is specific to Obito/Kakashi

I guess the relationship is similar to Oro/Kabuto. Madara somehow put some of his powers/abilities into Obito. Maybe he aged his body to maturity somehow too. And then the real Madara died somehow, leaving Obito to take on his identity.

I think we can guarantee that Madara will be arriving where Obito is soon. They both need to be present when some major questions are answered.

I wouldn't be shocked if next chapter went back to the Kages with Madara killing off Oonki and making his way toward Naruto at the end of the chapter. So in 601 Obito can begin his exposition.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Spicy~Noodles

None the less, I have no idea why Kishi chose Obito of all people. He was super weak sause in the Kakashi Gaiden (Thats why some no name ninjas smashed him litterally). And he has just 1 ms technique that I still don't understand how he got. So which friend did he kill to get MS kamui? Rin? Kakashi developed thinking he killed Obito. It's baffling how much of a power upgrade he got in such a short time.

Is it really that baffling? Consider how strong Naruto was at the start of Shippuden and how strong he is now. How much time has elapsed? What about Kabuto's power upgrade?

[Langus]

I think the entire reason for the obvious parallels Kishimoto drew in this chapter between Kakashi/Obito/Rin and Naruto/Sasuke/Sakura is that we are very soon going to see a show down between former comrades (Kakashi & Obito).

Obito's sacrifice and death had a significant effect on Kakashi, very much shaping him into the man he has become. Just as Sasuke's defection has had a major influence on shaping Naruto's growth, both personally and in terms of his strength. For the time being at least, his goal to become Hokage has become secondary to his desire to bring Sasuke back into the fold when it comes to what is driving his search for further control over his power.

What happens next between Obito and Kakashi will, I believe, foreshadow the impending showdown between Naruto and Sasuke.

As for the people who are shocked that Tobi was Obito, all I have to say is REALLY?! I thought it was obvious after Kakashi Gaiden that they were one in the same. What would have been the point of that arc otherwise? Clearly he was going to be important later on. I, for one, am excited to see where this goes from here.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I wrote a few chapters ago about the idea that sharingan eyes can record all the things that they saw until the death of the owner. It's funny that we see a chapter with only pictures and no sound, since an eye can't record sound

i dont think so. then who's sharingan was recording these flashbacks? obito's weren't awakened at this time and kakashi obviously didnt have his. i think it was just an artistic decision as has been pointed out by some people in this thread

Originally Posted by Mateus

It's also strange (to me) that Madara gained the rinnegan shortly before his death, which was after his fight with Hashirama...was the first and second even around during the Nine tails attack, unless it was an inconsistency/discrepancy.

we are in store for some heavy flashbacks detailing everything from the first VotE fight to madara and hashirama's exact deaths. and of course everything involving zetsu and tobi as well

[Sasheks]

Relax guys, they are all under the effect of Infinite Tsukuyomi. ^^

[SuperRareTreeCat]

In my opinion I had a strong feeling that Tobi would be Obito but the more I thought about it the two masked men are completely different individuals. People are trying to get explanation as to who "the" masked man is. I dont think Kisame and especially Itachi would be mistaken about long haired being madara. When I think about it who is a very important character towards the story and this war, and who we know the least about, the one person we're constantly forgetting, the one who could make an exact replica that could fool anyone? Zetsu, who has been with tobi since his introduction. Once we find out who Zetsu really is (as in both parts) and his secrets we'll be able to uncover the secrets behind Obito's survival and why he's where he is now. I mean Zetsu was introduced after Kakashi carried Naruto out of the VotE and we never really learned anything about him till just before the war. Zetsu's always been the secret to Tobi it's just a matter of time till we know.

[UsagiTenpura]

I'm not used to posting in the Naruto forums so I'm not entirely sure this really goes in this thread (sorry if it doesn't) but it seems to be~

I have a theory, which might be (probably is) crackpot.

Spoiler for Theory:

Rumors of reincarnations, but the only being we've seen who seems to be a reincarnation is Naruto.
Various beings able to make prophecies.
Some patterns always repeating every generations.
The knowledge of Orochimaru and probably others which seems to hide a fundamental truth about the world.
Madara knowing about Nagato. Both Madara and Tobi making references that Nagato was supposed to revive Madara. As if they more or less knew what the future was "supposed" to be.
The Juubi is the "beginning and the end of all life".
The Rikudo Senin told the 9 tailed beasts that eventually they would become one again.
Madara and Obito being from entirely different eras but being part of the same plan.

Makes me think that there is a sort of world reset or eternal reccurance thing going on. It's not as if it wasn't already a strong theme in another form.

What I'm proposing is that the Juubi is really the beginning and end of all life. Every "cycle" it becomes one again and ends up destroying life. "Naruto" ends up beating him and dividing him again, becoming the Rikudo Senin at the beginning of a new cycle. Once that cycle ends, the Juubi is revived and Naruto reincarned and the same cycles restarts over and over again. Somehow access to knowledge of previous cycles is possible. When saying "Nagato was supposed to revive Madara" they weren't talking about a master plan but rather what normally happens in these cycles. Madara considers Tobi "his ally" because that's the role he had in every previous cycles, for instance, not because they ever met before. I'm not entirely sure if Obito and/or Madara's plans reinforces this "cycle" of if they wish to break away from it (nor am I very certain of how much they actually do know), but I think the "truth" that was revealed to Kisame and the real "moon eye plan" is related to these world cycles.

I'm not entirely ruling out the possibilities that some beings from the previous cycle still exists. If anything this is what this Obito could be. The one of the previous cycle, where things ended up differently.
If anything, I've realized that it would explain what Madara said about Edo Tensei. It would break indeed the cycle of life and death if a being could constantly survive these cycles of life of death created by the juubi.

I'm also under the assumption that this cycle has many irregularities (such as Edo Tensei Madara or Kyuubi being already in the Rikudo Senin to be).

I could probably elaborate this much further, but I think this is a good start.
Maybe I'm completely off anyway and just saying nonsense~
Still, hope you enjoyed~