(L) Simoun

[Kaoru Chujo]

JediNight, as you will see if you read my blog, I feel totally and completely differently about the ending. You expect this to be a normal anime? It is not.

Spoiler for ending:

If you want a simple, clear plot with everything neatly tied in a bow, you will have to go elsewhere. Now, I do understand your frustration. But I think that if you ponder and feel a little more, it will dissipate. At least I hope so for your sake.

The whole point of this anime, as expressed by the voice actresses in their interviews at the time the show began broadcasting, is the reactions of the characters to the war. We see their feelings played out over 26 passionately engrossing episodes. The progress of the war is significant but tangential. The ending is a tragedy for Kyuukoku, but life goes on for the characters. As life goes on for us.

Now, you did understand part of the ending. But Aaeru and Neviril are not a couple of years in the future. They are everywhere and always. They appear several years in the future on the ship. They appear to Limone in the past. They are like Onashia, who said she was everywhere and nowhere. But even moreso. We are not told why the ship was sunk, but it was probably to drown a symbol of Kyuukoku's greatness, and prevent it being used again. (And to make possible a great and memorable series of scenes around the lake and on the ship.)

In my opinion, the depth of your frustration helps prove the greatness of the show. Please try to calm down and accept that this ending is in fact more meaningful than the neat ending you -- or in fact I, at the time -- thought we wanted.

And Matrim? In the eye of the beholder, as you imply. I love Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu, lol. Glorious and humane humor, a great character, superb voice-acting, unequalled animation, etc.

[Cyz]

I just found an awesome pic of Aaeru and Neviril.

Spoiler for Aaeru and Neviril:

yuri FTW!!!

[yononaka]

There is a word for "at first I was disappointed with [in this case the ending of Simoun] but when I thought about it some more I actually liked it": rationalization. Which ties in with what I was saying before about whoever buys into and gets invested in [in this case Simoun] being inclined to whitewash its faults. (I'm no exception, I just don't do it for Simoun.)

[oneplusme]

Originally Posted by yononaka

There is a word for "at first I was disappointed with [in this case the ending of Simoun] but when I thought about it some more I actually liked it": rationalization.

It absolutely could be that, I agree. In my case it was more something of a mental gear-shift because I'd mis-anticipated things.

I'm definitely not saying it's the best ending ever, and it's certainly not one with which everyone's likely to be happy. But equally, it put me in mind of Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou, and that's no bad thing at all.

[Matrim]

You could claim we are turning a blind eye to the faults of Simoun but you could also say we have put the ending into perspective and after thinking about the series as a whole and not about what we personally expected to happen in the end we have come to a conclusion that the ending was actually a good one. A good example would be the ending of Mai-HiME which by itself is not too bad and I initially did not hate it but it becomes non-sensical and annoying when one thinks of it in relation to the previous episodes. I think we have the opposite case in Simoun. But of course, I might be trying to rationalize and make myself feel better about the ending. But even if I am doing exactly that while pretending that I am not, I wouldn't generalise and put everyone who feels the same about the ending in that category.

In my opinion, the depth of your frustration helps prove the greatness of the show.

I am not so sure about that as it would mean that Avenger and Mai-HiME are absolutely awesome just because their endings frustrated me so much. The frustration can prove the greatness of a show up to the ending, true but even a mediocre series can frustrate one greatly if the ending is total nonsense or one that basically tells you "Buy the game/wait six months for the DVD to see the last episode/read the manga if you want to feel any sense of closure or just want to see what happens next". And of course in more plot driven series a bad ending can ruin the whole experience.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Matrim

You could claim we are turning a blind eye to the faults of Simoun but you could also say we have put the ending into perspective and after thinking about the series as a whole and not about what we personally expected to happen in the end we have come to a conclusion that the ending was actually a good one.

Maybe, but I was surprised how many people who were otherwise very positive towards Simoun said as their first reaction that they were disappointed with the ending. That half the fandom was wrong in their expectations is about as likely as that the ending was only half good

Originally Posted by Matrim

But of course, I might be trying to rationalize and make myself feel better about the ending. But even if I am doing exactly that while pretending that I am not, I wouldn't generalise and put everyone who feels the same about the ending in that category.

I don't mean this as though people are pretending to like it or pretending not to rationalize. The kind of rationalization I'm talking about is subconscious, you could say involuntary. It's a natural human thing to do; it's not like the people who'd do it would be less intelligent for it or have less integrity or anything like that.

I'm not sure what you mean about generalizing people into a category there. I'm not trying to say that everyone who liked the ending is rationalizing. More like there's a good chance that the people who didn't like it at first but then "learned" to like it through various means might be.

And NO thanks to you for reminding me of the Avenger ending I do agree with your objection to KC point, though.

[Matrim]

Maybe, but I was surprised how many people who were otherwise very positive towards Simoun at first said that they were disappointed with the ending. That half the fandom was wrong in their expectations is about as likely as that the ending was only half good

Well, the expectations were sky high, it has to be noted. The way I see it if one does not see what he personally wants to happen he is bound to be disappointed. But after getting over this he is more likely to really assess the ending without thinking so much about his own expectation and paying more attention to what happened in the end as opposed to what he wanted to see happening but didn't. So I think in most cases there are bound to be people who are initially disappointed but then change their mind and rationalizing and wishful thinking are not the only reasons for that.

I don't mean this as though people are pretending to like it or pretending not to rationalize. The kind of rationalization I'm talking about is subconscious, you could say involuntary. It's a natural human thing to do; it's not like the people who'd do it would be less intelligent for it or have less integrity or anything like that.

I get that, I didn't mean that I was deliberately pretending that the ending is better than I actually think it is, it was an attempt to point out that I might be doing this involuntary, I guess it wasn't worded too well.

I'm not sure what you mean about generalizing people into a category there. I'm not trying to say that everyone who liked the ending is rationalizing. More like there's a good chance that the people who didn't like it at first but then "learned" to like it through various means might be.

It seems I hadn't understood correctly your previous post, I think I was misled by the word "whoever" but since you don't mean everyone I can only agree with that.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by JediNight

Ending spoilers:

Spoiler:

*takes a deep breath* WTF WAS THAT?! *falls over*

Theres like 4 episodes of buildup to the end and then ..... NOTHING! I understand Evangelion and Lain, but I have no fscking clue what the supposed moral or reasoning to this ending is LOL ... other than enjoy your childhood but don't be afraid of being an or something?

So like Limone and Dominura are in the past at some point that in a catch22 taught the Emerald Remergion to the people? (And the word aaeru) And supposedly Aaeru and Neviril only went a couple years into the future and are now dancing in the sunken Arcus Prima? (Btw I wonder why it was sunk? Another war happened, or the Alliance didn't want to take the chance it might be used against them again in the future?)

Argh I wanted to go to sleep after watching the ending, and now my chest is all pent up with frustration ^_^;;

This goes near the top of my list on frustrating non-ending series....

Spoiler:

The climax is near the middle of the series, which is pretty uncommon, so that's why the ending felt weird and anticlimactic.
The general concensus on Aaeru and Neviril is that they never actually ended up in any specific time, but instead they kinda-sorta became Tempus Spatium - drifting through time and space as if it were water; existing everywhere and nowhere all at once. The scene of them dancing on the Arcus Prima was therefore metaphorical, telling us that despite the lost glory days of the ship and the priestesses, the spirit of their eternal youth (eternal maidens/priestesses) and everything that it carried with it still lives on, even if there's no one there to bear witness to it.

There's very little conclusion to the plot threads of the war and the Simoun. The story, however, is not about the war - it's about a bunch of grls growing up. Taken in that manner, it's one of the best endings I've ever seen.

Wow, it feels really good to write about Simoun again. Seems like it's been ages

Originally Posted by Matrim

You seem to like Suzumiya Haruhi too, so sorry you fail.

D:
Oh, so you're "that guy," huh?

I almost got a ly moe overdose from just one episode. Character driven series become unbearable if you don't like the characters but I might try one more episode due to excessive boredom that I am feeling today. Wait for my rant.

You can sit there and honestly tell me that you didn't like "uguu"?
I recommend trying up to episode three, since there's not a lot that happens in two.
And, for what it's worth, I've been assured by many people that there is indeed a plot (a great one, at that), so fret not about that. And it's not a harem show, either.


I'm not blind to the shows faults at all. I still get a bit irritated whenever I think about Anglus and how none of the explanation for that gaping plothole was even hinted at. However, it's a lot like love: despite the other person having flaws, the good points will ultimately outweigh the bad, and you'll find acceptance. There's no perfect person, and there's no perfect show.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I may be rationalizing away problems, but if I am, it certainly is quite deeply subconscious. All I can feel in myself is how great the ending is, resonating still. Not tied up neatly so that the story is signed, sealed, delivered, and gone from my mind. Definite similarities to YKK and Haibane Renmei in that regard. And I think I was fairly clear about problems with, for example, the storyboarding of episode 19. It's just that the strengths of the show, including that episode, overwhelmed any problems, for me at least.

I agree with Matrim, however, that my statement about frustration proving greatness is laying it on a little thick. Thanks for reining me in. The remarkable fact that yononaka continues to monitor the thread of this show he doesn't think he likes may prove something, though. Not sure what. Perhaps negative rationalizations are as easy as positive ones?

As for Kanon, although I myself like it a lot, it has about the most moe per square centimetre of any show I've seen, and I can well imagine someone gagging on it after about 30 seconds. You definitely do have to like at least some characters in a show, and not be repelled by too many others, in order to have a chance of liking it.

One difference between Simoun and Strawberry Panic is that StoPani is full of moe characters and Simoun has nary a one, in my opinion.

[yononaka]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

The remarkable fact that yononaka continues to monitor the thread of this show he doesn't think he likes may prove something, though. Not sure what. Perhaps negative rationalizations are as easy as positive ones?

If you're even half-seriously suggesting that the fact that I sometimes look at this thread is yet another proof of the greatness of Simoun, you really are laying it on a little thick If you're suggesting something else, well, I thought you guys wanted to get 2500 posts but I can probably refrain from posting here again if it's a problem.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by yononaka

If you're even half-seriously suggesting that the fact that I sometimes look at this thread is yet another proof of the greatness of Simoun, you really are laying it on a little thick. If you're suggesting something else, well, I thought you guys wanted to get 2500 posts but I can probably refrain from posting here again if it's a problem.

What I was saying is that it's theoretically just as likely that you're kidding yourself about the show's faults as it is that I'm kidding myself about the show's strengths.

But now that you mention it.... I guess that "thinks he does" was there because I was wondering whether you actually disliked the show as much as you think you do. At least it appears to hold a certain fascination for you that other shows you don't much like may not. So perhaps your coming here does demonstrate the show's ability to fascinate, if not its greatness.

I do keep testing my own fascination, since it seems excessive even to me. I've been looking at various episodes recently, but I keep finding them at least as moving as I did before. Fully invested, lol.

I certainly wasn't telling you to go away. But when you come to a thread to tell a show's admirers that they are lying to themselves, you should be able to accept a little forceful resistance, shouldn't you?

[warainagara]

Spoiler for opinion about Kanon:

The series doesn't seem to work for me emotionally in contrast to its apparent attempt to imbuing emotion.
Kanon girls' thoughts/feelings/actions are mere imaginative fantasy that real girls have trouble in sympathizing with.
I'm not only addressing moe but also the characterization.
Although each of their stories is based on an emotive setting,
it would not works for those who notice the huge gap between the way of responding to the weighty situations between the anime girls and the real girls.
That may work for juvenile minds which don't have much experience in female or love relationship,
just as some shoujo mangas function in a reversed way.
The girls and boys are mere characters who only live in the 2D world, who are created only to entertain a specific group of people at best by giving them what they may think is touching.
Here, I'm neither bashing or despising juvenile minds.
But they may need to know that they feel those are touching because they don't notice that the characters in them are extremely strange in terms of unrealistic pattern of thoughts/feelings/actions.

edit) Ah, no. They had better not to know it.
But at least they should know that older people may have the reason to think differently in evaluting an anime or manga aimed at younger age.

I agree there is a distinct doctrine of characterization in anime in general with the degree being differentiated, and a bishoujo game typically embodies such a doctrine.
Moe anime, character anime is not bad in itself.
But don't we, anime fans, need to think about a suggestion like "anime is not recognized as a high-level culture, for they simply seem to seek sheer sensuous satisfaction rather than speculative reflection of the reality of life and the world"?

[Matrim]

Since we seem to be on the topic of Kanon, I will just say I watched the second episode and hated it. Rarely has a series managed to get on my nerves so much in just two episodes. If anyone is interested in my rant, it's on my blog (see my sig). I guess KyoAni's recent works are just not my cup of tea (though FMP:Fumoffu is awesome).

[animes25]

Originally Posted by oneplusme

Spoiler for episode 26:

Neviril and Aaeru definitely aren't just "a couple years into the future". Pay close attention to the curtains in the ballroom during that scene...

I initially felt quite let down by the ending as well (primarily because I'd been predicting an all-action end-tying conclusion), but after re-watching it (and catching the smaller details) I realised that it really does close off pretty much all the important character arcs in the series (notice Rodoreamon's hair; Yun using feminine pronouns(!); despite a professed desire, it's interesting that Neviril and Aaeru never touch one another after the moment of Aaeru's (or even Neviril's?) confession...). Clearly there are stories left to tell (Dominura and Limone's travels; Dominura's condition; what really happened to Amuria; where /exactly/ Neviril and Aaeru have gone), but I tend to find those just add more interest for future debate and/or fanfic. Given the gentle path of the final few episodes, in some ways it's the only kind of ending which would have made sense...

in fact the theory(it could end in a fanfic) that I am thinking to write here about how the simoun fly and from where they are, could explain all what you are saying and it will be in agree, the problem that I am having here is how to explain the Aeru/Neviril/Amuria relations because it will end with Aeru/Neviril love and I dont think that everyone will like this, even me.
But to explain the story seems to be the only way

[catcher]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Since we seem to be on the topic of Kanon, I will just say I watched the second episode and hated it. Rarely has a series managed to get on my nerves so much in just two episodes. If anyone is interested in my rant, it's on my blog (see my sig). I guess KyoAni's recent works are just not my cup of tea (though FMP:Fumoffu is awesome).

When I read other bloggers' posts about Kanon, all those fanboys gushing about uguu, I get dizzy and feel like vomiting. But we can't do anything about that really, it's their blog. If majority of anime audience (read: fanboys) demand moe, then the suppliers will deliver. Those of us who don't follow this line can only do our part by promoting more deserving shows, like Simoun for one. But I commend you for posting that rant on Kanon, it's good to have non-mainstream views for a change.

[JediNight]

I'll watch what I believe is "good" basically. Which is a bit more nitpicky than most, so I guess I'm not that mainstream either. Even despite being dissatisfied with the ending to Simoun, overall it was a good series. Asatte no Houkou is good right now, and Code Geass seems like it has promise.

For mainstream stuff, while Deathnote is insanely popular right off the bat it seems, I think it more or less is deserving as a good series. Certainly better than other mainstream series such as Inuyasha, Naruto, Bleach, etc.

So while mainstream doesn't automatically mean something sucks, it doesn't mean its great either.

[Yui from Okinawa]

Caution !!

All Core-2 duo type helical-moter technology is authorized by Temps-Spatium(T.M) shrine!!
The person or INC. who has reproduction copy of core-2 duo type helical-moter have to permission to Temps-Spatium (T.M)

[musouka]

You know, you guys. I've been following this thread for a long time, and I think there's some excellent discussion here. I also understand feeling bitter that Simoun doesn't have the widespread appeal you think it deserves, because I agree 100%. I loved this series.

Having said that, this elitist attitude is really getting on my nerves. I loved Simoun. I'm also enjoying Kanon. I also like (GASP) mainstream shounen, like Kekkaishi. Gee, I guess this means I'm a horrible, slobbering "fanboy" for not just worshipping Simoun and and looking down upon more mainstream offerings. You know, the best way to tell people about Simoun is to be passionate about it, and keep on trying. It's not insulting other shows people enjoy and insulting the people that enjoy them.

[Matrim]

Having said that, this elitist attitude is really getting on my nerves. I loved Simoun. I'm also enjoying Kanon. I also like (GASP) mainstream shounen, like Kekkaishi. Gee, I guess this means I'm a horrible, slobbering "fanboy" for not just worshipping Simoun and and looking down upon more mainstream offerings. You know, the best way to tell people about Simoun is to be passionate about it, and keep on trying. It's not insulting other shows people enjoy and insulting the people that enjoy them.

Don't you think you are exaggerating things a bit? Insulting shows? WTF? If I think a series is stupid or bad I say it, it's not as if its creators are reading my words and will get insulted anyway. Why not just stop saying anything but words of praise about anime or movies because, you know, the shows might get insulted? Insulting the fans of shows I don't like is completely different matter altogether and I try my best to avoid it but it's a fact that some fans of Kanon have a fanboyish attitude towards it, just like some fans of Simoun (me for instance) have more or less fanboyish or fangirlish attitude towards it. But since fans of mainstream shows are usually more numerous and outspoken than those of shows that are under the radar like Simoun, it's somewhat easier for one to get pissed off by all the praise for say Death Note than by the praise for a little known show he happens to hate too. And btw, who in this thread demands everyone to worship Simoun and snub anything and everything that's mainstream? I doubt that's what catcher's post was all about.

So while mainstream doesn't automatically mean something sucks, it doesn't mean its great either.

I doubt anyone would seriously argue with this, even in this "elitist" thread.

[musouka]

Don't you think you are exaggerating things a bit?

Not really, no. I thought this was the Simoun thread, not the "those uguu~ moe fanboys are so annoying!" thread. Do you really not understand how this comes across if you guys sit here and complain about the plebes that like stuff you guys don't?

If you want to write negative things about Kanon, be my guest. I got into a rather heated exchange because I had less than complimentary things to say about certain aspects too. The difference is I actually brought it to the Kanon thread instead of sitting in a thread devoted to an entirely different show and making generalizations about Kanon fans as opposed to those who are privileged to have the "good taste" to like non-mainstream shows.

I guess you just don't get how obnoxious that can come across to someone that loves Simoun (but isn't a hardcore enough fangirl like yourself, I guess) and comes here to read interesting discussions about the girls and the world of Simoun instead of generalities about other anime fans and what "undeserving" shows are currently popular.