AnimeSuki Forums

Akiyoshi · 2012-02-05, 02:32

I'm not execting One Piece leves of background filler but i would like to see Tohma's background fleshes out a bit more. What we've got was just a little sample and it wasn't(at least for me) enough to feel simpathy for him. Only when stuff that actually affected his views and principles happened and saw a chanc¿ge in him is when i started to pay attention.

I think i could be nice to see the first days of his relationship with Subaru and given a better depiction of how Tohma changed from the survivor, grudge driven kid into the good guy we know today. The change is implied but not fully explained.

About Force becoming Berserk, it started pretty well on the path to it(specially after Cypha makes her entrance xDU) but now it softened a bit and, once more, the consequences leave no permanent effect on any of the characters so i doubt the manga will reach that complex level of scriptwriting xDU

EDIT: Page claimed for Eclipsed Bushido T-T

00-Raiser · 2012-02-05, 02:58

Thoma's change is shown well enough. We see him in the woods training, clearly intent on revenge. Then he meets Subaru and we see what she did for him. Then we see him declaring that he'll give his revenge another 6 months and if nothing comes of it he'll give it up and join the family.

Akiyoshi · 2012-02-05, 03:21

^ He didn't take the descicion immediately,tough. Subaru found him as a little kid and he leaves the Nakajimas as a full blown teenager. So there's a lot to space to explore bits of Tohma's changing point in his life xD

rxrx · 2012-02-05, 03:21

Then it says a lot of Touma's potential as a mage then. According to the PSP game, Vivio noted that Touma was not a combat mage and cannot even fly when they first speak with each other through long range communications. It seemed that his magic potential is pretty low as even in the beginning of Force, it did not show him doing anything crazy like Nanhoa in terms of magic when she first get Raging Heart.

Well, plot-powers of course but I'm pretty sure that if he did not get infected with Eclipse, he might live a normal life, or if he manage to find his enemies, he might just used weapons forbidden by the TSAB to get revenge then.

Justin_Brett · 2012-02-05, 03:32

I think that's the first time a revenge-seeking character has ever put an arbitrary limit on it.

I thought Touma was kinda neat in the first chapter, when he snuck in past those guards. It was little, but it was someone solving a problem without explosions for once.

Akiyoshi · 2012-02-05, 03:37

Unfortunately is doubtful that we get to see spy Tohma again, now that he have all the firepower in the world xDU

00-Raiser · 2012-02-05, 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

^ He didn't take the descicion immediately,tough. Subaru found him as a little kid and he leaves the Nakajimas as a full blown teenager. So there's a lot to space to explore bits of Tohma's changing point in his life xD

Actually Thoma went pretty in depth about the kindness shown to him (see chapter 7 page 1-10 since I know you want to avoid the rest).

Hm, he was 8 when his town was destroyed and it's mentioned that Subaru had the investigation 'extended.' So he must have met her not long after it occurred since the investigation was extended rather than 're-opened.'

Though this would fuck up the timeline since at that time Subaru hadn't even joined Riot Force 6 and we clearly see Teana as an Enforcer when Thoma goes to the orphanage. Unless that means Thoma was in state custody for a few years? This is probably a fuck up on Tsuzuki's end. We knew he wasn't good on keeping details straight.

Well this pannel makes me want to see what his life at the orphanage was like with his two 'younger siblings.'

*Looks closer* Oh hey, Kris is there!

Justin_Brett · 2012-02-05, 03:51

So the Nakajimas are better than two families, I see.

And gee, almost like him being related to them wasn't planned out very well, huh?

00-Raiser · 2012-02-05, 03:55

Hm? What do you mean by that?

It's just the dates that aren't well planned. Then again maybe I'm wrong and the investigation was still active for a couple of years.

Justin_Brett · 2012-02-05, 04:01

I kinda think that Touma being buddies with everyone in Section Six wasn't originally planned, so that could explain it.

00-Raiser · 2012-02-05, 04:09

Uuuuh he's mentioned Suu-chan since page 4 of chapter 1. It was undeniably planned from the start.

EDIT: not to mention we see her with him in chapter 0.

rxrx · 2012-02-05, 04:10

Well, he is only buddies with the Nakajima family and Teana mainly. The rest of the Section Six was just a 'I know them by face' thing only. The real connection he have is with The Nakajimas and Teana whom is a close friend of Subaru.

As for the dates, I think the village was destroyed when the events of StS ended then the investigation was made and extended. Subaru met Touma when she decide to take a break and train as she watched some people died during her rescue mission and take time off to cool down.

Akiyoshi · 2012-02-05, 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00-Raiser

Uuuuh he's mentioned Suu-chan since page 4 of chapter 1. It was undeniably planned from the start.

Agreed, Tohma being knowed and liked by almost the entire old cast seems to be planned from the beginning. It didn't change the fact that it made Tohma to look like a bit of a Su-ish character xDU

00-Raiser · 2012-02-05, 04:12

No, the village was destroyed 'seven years ago' which places it at the time Subaru and Teana finished the academy.

And why wouldn't Thoma be known and liked by the rest of the cast? Everyone knew of and liked Erio from the start because Fate was always talking about him. Subaru did the same with Thoma and really why wouldn't they like him? Hell, as far back as A's we have Nanoha and co liking Hayate only because she was Suzuka's friend.

Justin_Brett · 2012-02-05, 04:13

Quote:

Uuuuh he's mentioned Suu-chan since page 4 of chapter 1. It was undeniably planned from the start.

EDIT: not to mention we see her with him in chapter 0.

Huh, I thought they did some changes when they saw how much people hated him, but I guess it was preemptive. Poor Touma.

Laith · 2012-02-05, 04:14

Ehh considering of which kind of persons all of Section Six has, it's not really Sue-ish at all. See, being friendly with the Numbers.

E: sniped by Raiser

00-Raiser · 2012-02-05, 04:17

Now that I think of it even going farther back Alisa and Suzuka liked Fate despite only Nanoha knowing her.

Nanoha has plenty of connections like this. Even Subaru knew Nanoha because Nanoha saved her from that fire. Having the new connected to the old is pretty much a staple. I remember when people thought that the two kids Subaru saved at the end of StrikerS would be the protagonists of the next season.

And look, no one has connections to Lily or Isis but everyone in Section 6 likes them. That's just how they roll.

Justin_Brett · 2012-02-05, 04:26

I kinda miss when Subaru was a bit sillier instead of being Nanoha-lite, but yeah, I wouldn't call her a sue by any means.

I also think the old to young connection was done way better in StrikerS.

Akiyoshi · 2012-02-05, 04:28

It's because of the Retcons, apparently subaru already meet Tohma by the time of SSX but obviously he wasn't planned to come into existence by that point yet. We had developement for the adopted and all the relationships and then BAM! he appears and suddenly everyone knows about him and likes him.

A bit different from Fate, Arisa and Suzuka didn't instantly like her bt were nice to her since it's Nanoha's friend(Arisa even undergo a brief period of jealousy xDU). In Hayate's case it can be helped because she herself was kind of a Mary Sue in A's(still likeable, tough). She was an orphan, wellchair-bounded, ill girl, like some people before said she was created almost with the purpouse to be pittied by the audience and yeah she was instantly liked without any bonding-time at all xDU.

I'm not saying tohma is a bad character, i like him, but i can't unsee that xDU

rxrx · 2012-02-05, 04:28

In my opinion, Touma suffers as like the others, he have much connection but unlike Erio, he is the main character. The fanbase, not all, but some hates male characters being involve in a pink ghetto and thus bash him just because of it. Any flaws or characteristics will be either point out as a sueish thing or use it to 'proof' that he is an ass. It is almost like people bashing that lady whom got infected with worms, got raped by step-brother and people call her slut.

What the hell? How can you like someone when you do not even give him a chance and just bash him? Not trying to point to anyone here, but just a thought.

2012-02-05, 02:32	Link #5621
Akiyoshi The Flame Crussader Join Date: Aug 2009	I'm not execting One Piece leves of background filler but i would like to see Tohma's background fleshes out a bit more. What we've got was just a little sample and it wasn't(at least for me) enough to feel simpathy for him. Only when stuff that actually affected his views and principles happened and saw a chanc¿ge in him is when i started to pay attention. I think i could be nice to see the first days of his relationship with Subaru and given a better depiction of how Tohma changed from the survivor, grudge driven kid into the good guy we know today. The change is implied but not fully explained. About Force becoming Berserk, it started pretty well on the path to it(specially after Cypha makes her entrance xDU) but now it softened a bit and, once more, the consequences leave no permanent effect on any of the characters so i doubt the manga will reach that complex level of scriptwriting xDU EDIT: Page claimed for Eclipsed Bushido T-T __________________ May 29 2010-2019 ...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same ~The ASFB~

2012-02-05, 02:58	Link #5622
00-Raiser Burst Mode Author Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Windsor, Ontario Age: 37	Thoma's change is shown well enough. We see him in the woods training, clearly intent on revenge. Then he meets Subaru and we see what she did for him. Then we see him declaring that he'll give his revenge another 6 months and if nothing comes of it he'll give it up and join the family. __________________

2012-02-05, 03:21	Link #5623
Akiyoshi The Flame Crussader Join Date: Aug 2009	^ He didn't take the descicion immediately,tough. Subaru found him as a little kid and he leaves the Nakajimas as a full blown teenager. So there's a lot to space to explore bits of Tohma's changing point in his life xD __________________ May 29 2010-2019 ...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same ~The ASFB~

2012-02-05, 03:37	Link #5626
Akiyoshi The Flame Crussader Join Date: Aug 2009	Unfortunately is doubtful that we get to see spy Tohma again, now that he have all the firepower in the world xDU __________________ May 29 2010-2019 ...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same ~The ASFB~

2012-02-05, 03:55	Link #5629
00-Raiser Burst Mode Author Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Windsor, Ontario Age: 37	Hm? What do you mean by that? It's just the dates that aren't well planned. Then again maybe I'm wrong and the investigation was still active for a couple of years. __________________

2012-02-05, 03:21	Link #5624
rxrx Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Then it says a lot of Touma's potential as a mage then. According to the PSP game, Vivio noted that Touma was not a combat mage and cannot even fly when they first speak with each other through long range communications. It seemed that his magic potential is pretty low as even in the beginning of Force, it did not show him doing anything crazy like Nanhoa in terms of magic when she first get Raging Heart. Well, plot-powers of course but I'm pretty sure that if he did not get infected with Eclipse, he might live a normal life, or if he manage to find his enemies, he might just used weapons forbidden by the TSAB to get revenge then.

2012-02-05, 03:32	Link #5625
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	I think that's the first time a revenge-seeking character has ever put an arbitrary limit on it. I thought Touma was kinda neat in the first chapter, when he snuck in past those guards. It was little, but it was someone solving a problem without explosions for once.

2012-02-05, 03:51	Link #5628
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	So the Nakajimas are better than two families, I see. And gee, almost like him being related to them wasn't planned out very well, huh?

2012-02-05, 04:01	Link #5630
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	I kinda think that Touma being buddies with everyone in Section Six wasn't originally planned, so that could explain it.

2012-02-05, 04:09	Link #5631
00-Raiser Burst Mode Author Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Windsor, Ontario Age: 37	Uuuuh he's mentioned Suu-chan since page 4 of chapter 1. It was undeniably planned from the start. EDIT: not to mention we see her with him in chapter 0. __________________

2012-02-05, 04:10	Link #5632
rxrx Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Well, he is only buddies with the Nakajima family and Teana mainly. The rest of the Section Six was just a 'I know them by face' thing only. The real connection he have is with The Nakajimas and Teana whom is a close friend of Subaru. As for the dates, I think the village was destroyed when the events of StS ended then the investigation was made and extended. Subaru met Touma when she decide to take a break and train as she watched some people died during her rescue mission and take time off to cool down.

2012-02-05, 04:12	Link #5634
00-Raiser Burst Mode Author Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Windsor, Ontario Age: 37	No, the village was destroyed 'seven years ago' which places it at the time Subaru and Teana finished the academy. And why wouldn't Thoma be known and liked by the rest of the cast? Everyone knew of and liked Erio from the start because Fate was always talking about him. Subaru did the same with Thoma and really why wouldn't they like him? Hell, as far back as A's we have Nanoha and co liking Hayate only because she was Suzuka's friend. __________________

2012-02-05, 04:14	Link #5636
Laith Even if it just for a bit Author Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Cold Storage Age: 32	Ehh considering of which kind of persons all of Section Six has, it's not really Sue-ish at all. See, being friendly with the Numbers. E: sniped by Raiser __________________ Inexistant Time: My ranting place.・・・Fenruer Intun FanFiction Profile.

2012-02-05, 04:17	Link #5637
00-Raiser Burst Mode Author Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Windsor, Ontario Age: 37	Now that I think of it even going farther back Alisa and Suzuka liked Fate despite only Nanoha knowing her. Nanoha has plenty of connections like this. Even Subaru knew Nanoha because Nanoha saved her from that fire. Having the new connected to the old is pretty much a staple. I remember when people thought that the two kids Subaru saved at the end of StrikerS would be the protagonists of the next season. And look, no one has connections to Lily or Isis but everyone in Section 6 likes them. That's just how they roll. __________________

2012-02-05, 04:26	Link #5638
Justin_Brett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie	I kinda miss when Subaru was a bit sillier instead of being Nanoha-lite, but yeah, I wouldn't call her a sue by any means. I also think the old to young connection was done way better in StrikerS.

2012-02-05, 04:28	Link #5639
Akiyoshi The Flame Crussader Join Date: Aug 2009	It's because of the Retcons, apparently subaru already meet Tohma by the time of SSX but obviously he wasn't planned to come into existence by that point yet. We had developement for the adopted and all the relationships and then BAM! he appears and suddenly everyone knows about him and likes him. A bit different from Fate, Arisa and Suzuka didn't instantly like her bt were nice to her since it's Nanoha's friend(Arisa even undergo a brief period of jealousy xDU). In Hayate's case it can be helped because she herself was kind of a Mary Sue in A's(still likeable, tough). She was an orphan, wellchair-bounded, ill girl, like some people before said she was created almost with the purpouse to be pittied by the audience and yeah she was instantly liked without any bonding-time at all xDU. I'm not saying tohma is a bad character, i like him, but i can't unsee that xDU __________________ May 29 2010-2019 ...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same ~The ASFB~

2012-02-05, 04:28	Link #5640
rxrx Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	In my opinion, Touma suffers as like the others, he have much connection but unlike Erio, he is the main character. The fanbase, not all, but some hates male characters being involve in a pink ghetto and thus bash him just because of it. Any flaws or characteristics will be either point out as a sueish thing or use it to 'proof' that he is an ass. It is almost like people bashing that lady whom got infected with worms, got raped by step-brother and people call her slut. What the hell? How can you like someone when you do not even give him a chance and just bash him? Not trying to point to anyone here, but just a thought.