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Old 2013-02-10, 18:23   Link #121
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Huh? We were told he was just like Naruto so there was really nothing surprising here. We knew Hashirama was the Naruto-type who want to make friend with everybody and it was obvious that his brother was however the suspicious type whose distrust paved the way for a future rebellion.
Y'know, you're right, but I was still a little surprised at their personalities. I had imagined Hashirama to be closer in personality to Hiruzen... warm-hearted but still calm and reserved. I didn't expect him to be the complete goofball he was here. Not that I mind it really, it just seemed odd.

And Tobirama. The fact he that he came up with a jutsu like Edo Tensei put his morality into question before. And his suspicion against the Uchiha was already known. Still, I didn't think he was this cold-hearted of a bastard. To be so openly prejudiced against the Uchiha. Not even a little bothered to hear the clan had been massacred. Though he's still a good guy, he's definitely a bit of an a**hole, which he seems to be perfectly aware of.

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Originally Posted by james0246
For the peace of the nations alliance, someone so singularly powerful could not exist or claim residence within one country. That would just promote fear which would lead to war. Hashirama understood this when he split up the Bijuu.

Th only way I could see Naruto staying in Konoha to become the next Hokage is if he loses the Kyuubi (as it is, I fully expect Sasuke to lose his eyes by the end of the series, or have them simply evolve to the Rinnegan, thus destroying the instability that is the Sharingan).
If there's true peace among the villages--not just the uneasy truce between wars like before--then I think Naruto could become Hokage even with the Kyuubi. Before there was mistrust among the villages and fear of bijuu. But the remaining bijuu have been all but domesticated and the villages are pretty much united already under Naruto. The jinchuuriki are now saviors and known to be altogether benevolent so the fear of them being unpredictable weapons is gone. Frankly, I'll be surprised if the separate village system remains after this.

But, I do imagine Naruto will lose the Kyuubi and Bee the Hachibi. Now that the bijuu have been shown to have human-like feelings and attachments, it seems kind of unfair to have them sealed as prisoners, even if they may genuinely care about their hosts. Wouldn't be surprised if they somehow merge back with the juubi and "purify" it, then leave so that its power can't be used for destruction again.
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Old 2013-02-10, 18:42   Link #122
james0246
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
And Tobirama. The very fact he that he came up with a jutsu like Edo Tensei put his morality into question before. And his suspicion against the Uchiha was already known. Still, I didn't think he was this cold-hearted of a bastard. To be so openly prejudiced against the Uchiha. Not even a little bothered to hear the clan had been massacred. Though he's still a good guy, he's definitely a bit of an a**hole, which he seems to be perfectly aware of.
I still read it as pragmatism. Tobirama was well aware that the Uchiha were a ticking time bomb (this chapter fully confirmed that the Uchiha were always a lost cause), so he attempted to muzzle the rabid clan and still make them useful to Konoha.

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If there's true peace among the villages--not just the uneasy truce between wars like before--then I think Naruto could become Hokage even with the Kyuubi.
I doubt it would be possible for "true peace" to exist so soon after the world had been living in a state of cold and hot war for 60+ years (even if they had all somehow been united by a common cause). Rather, old hostilities would need to be slowly resolved, and having such a powerful figure feature so prominently in one country would undoubtedly throw off the balance of peace.

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But, I do imagine Naruto will lose the Kyuubi and Bee the Hachibi. Now that the bijuu have been shown to have human-like feelings and attachments, it seems kind of unfair to have them sealed as prisoners, even if they may genuinely care about their hosts. I wouldn't be surprised if they merge back with the juubi and "purify" it, then leave so that its power can't be used for destruction again.
The Bijuu reflect the world they live in. If war exists, then they become mindless hate filled monsters. But, if peace can be attained, then they could become the fun little puppies we saw in the Kyuubi's flashback.

That being said, I'm still expecting Naruto to become the Jinchuuriki for the re-emerged Jyuubi.
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Old 2013-02-10, 19:21   Link #123
Sabaku Kyu
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I still read it as pragmatism. Tobirama was well aware that the Uchiha were a ticking time bomb (this chapter fully confirmed that the Uchiha were always a lost cause), so he attempted to muzzle the rabid clan and still make them useful to Konoha.
Yes, he definitely had good reason to want to keep the Uchiha in check. He only did what he thought necessary. But it's clear that he also had no compassion for the Uchiha and viewed them with contempt. He even says he cares for nothing outside the greater good of the village. His lack of empathy is what makes him a jerk, not so much his actions.

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I doubt it would be possible for "true peace" to exist so soon after the world had been living in a state of cold and hot war for 60+ years (even if they had all somehow been united by a common cause). Rather, old hostilities would need to be slowly resolved, and having such a powerful figure feature so prominently in one country would undoubtedly throw off the balance of peace.
Well, I guess we can really never know how things would work out unless Kishi decides to an epilogue some years into the future. But the stage is already set for lasting peace.

- The alliances are already fighting to protect the jinchuuriki, furthermore Naruto's already giving the Kyuubi's power to everyone to fight with, showing the Kyuubi's power can actually be power shared for the good of everyone, even though one person holds the source.

- Gaara is already Naruto's biggest supporter, kazekage and a former jinchuuriki. Bee, isn't a kage, but very influential in the Cloud and also has a bond with Naruto. The Mizukage is eager for peace and acceptance of the other villages to throw off the stigma of the "Bloody Mist". The Tuschikage would probably be the most reluctant, but even he seems to have changed his outlook during the war.

- All the villages have suffered major casualties and devastation during the war. More than ever, they'll need to rely on others for support and aid to rebuild.

And Naruto has become an icon. Rather than fearing him, I think they'd probably admire his strength. Unlike past Hokage, Naruto has never built infamy in other villages fighting for Konoha in wars (the sneak attack by the Sound and Sand notwithstanding). So personal bitterness from past conflicts won't be an issue. He is in a much better position to become a leader during a time of peace.

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That being said, I'm still expecting Naruto to become the Jinchuuriki for the re-emerged Jyuubi.
Yeah... I could also see Naruto becoming the Jyuubi host and next Rikudo Sennin. In which case, I'd think he wouldn't be part of any village.
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Old 2013-02-10, 19:58   Link #124
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I still read it as pragmatism. Tobirama was well aware that the Uchiha were a ticking time bomb (this chapter fully confirmed that the Uchiha were always a lost cause), so he attempted to muzzle the rabid clan and still make them useful to Konoha.
If anything this chapter confirmed just the opposite. You should know by now that pragmatism is another word for being wrong in this story. The people who always end up right are the (ridiculously overpowered) friendly idealists like Naruto and Hashirama, they are the ones who manage to change things and make them better. Tobirama wasn't right, he merely persevered into making the same errors of the past which paved the way for the same old horrors in the future.

Imagine this world without Hashirama because for all his talk about the greater good of the village Tobirama wouldn't have been able to create it in the first place. He'd never have asked a truce with the Uchiha and in the off chance that it somehow happened the Uchiha would never have chosen him as their leader over their own. This so called rabid clan accepted peace with their mortal enemy, chose the greatest of them as leader and it took then 5 generations of Tobirama's policy + the Kyubi attack and the distrust and segregation that followed for years to make them revolt and plan a coup.
Do you really think that had Hashirama lived the same would have happened? Because it really doesn't seem to me that's what the author is going for. Peace is impossible with [insert any clan/village/people] is what Madara's gunning for but it's not the moral of the story.

Last edited by Hunter; 2013-02-10 at 20:11.
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Old 2013-02-10, 21:30   Link #125
james0246
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If anything this chapter confirmed just the opposite. You should know by now that pragmatism is another word for being wrong in this story. The people who always end up right are the (ridiculously overpowered) friendly idealists like Naruto and Hashirama, they are the ones who manage to change things and make them better. Tobirama wasn't right, he merely persevered into making the same errors of the past which paved the way for the same old horrors in the future.
I don't disagree with anything you've written. But, I still see Tobirama as being practicle not an asshole (which was Sabaku's comment). Tobirama was clearly wrong in his approach, Kishimoto has spent 600 chapters arguing that point, but that doesn't make him an asshole, just lacking in empathy.
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Old 2013-02-10, 23:40   Link #126
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And Itachi also left. .

For the peace of the nations alliance, someone so singularly powerful could not exist or claim residence within one country. That would just promote fear which would lead to war. Hashirama understood this when he split up the Bijuu.
itachi didnt leave because he was too powerful. he left because he was ordered to after murdering his clan. if itachi had stayed in konoha it would have caused the same amount of fear in other nations as would any kage-level ninja living in any village.

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Th only way I could see Naruto staying in Konoha to become the next Hokage is if he loses the Kyuubi (as it is, I fully expect Sasuke to lose his eyes by the end of the series, or have them simply evolve to the Rinnegan, thus destroying the instability that is the Sharingan).
i am pretty sure naruto will eventually lose the kyuubi by some means or another. reason being that kurama now has a personality and has shown compassion and reasoning ability. for the same reason as the hokages not being 'allowed' to stay in eternal torture, kurama won't stay a prisoner either. even if the worst happens and he is stolen by madara, obito or sasuke and/or forced into a full juubi, he will still regain his individuality and either sacrifice himself or live peacefully with the other bijou on some mystical animal farm

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I don't disagree with anything you've written. But, I still see Tobirama as being practicle not an asshole (which was Sabaku's comment). Tobirama was clearly wrong in his approach, Kishimoto has spent 600 chapters arguing that point, but that doesn't make him an asshole, just lacking in empathy.
i see him as an asshole. he's clearly racist. he couldn't care less that the uchiha are all but gone. he understands that he segregated them and doesn't care. he speaks of others as less than himself, the senju and the village. thats an asshole in my book. i'll grant him not being at danzo's level yet, but i still dont like him
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Old 2013-02-11, 00:08   Link #127
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Maybe we are arguing semantics, but an asshole to me is someone that takes pleasure in the pain of others (schadenfreude is an extreme version). Tobirama is definitely prejudicial, maybe even hateful (debatable) of the Uchiha, but overall I didn't read any joy in Tobirama's treatment of the Uchiha nor their demise. (he was very matter the fact about his fear of the Uchiha's eventual decline, so much so that I doubt he realizes that he created a self fullfilling prophecy ). He's more of a douche than an asshole.
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Old 2013-02-11, 02:46   Link #128
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A douche and an asshole are the same thing. I think you're confusing "asshole" with "bad person".
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Old 2013-02-11, 09:04   Link #129
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i see him as an asshole. he's clearly racist. he couldn't care less that the uchiha are all but gone. he understands that he segregated them and doesn't care. he speaks of others as less than himself, the senju and the village. thats an asshole in my book. i'll grant him not being at danzo's level yet, but i still dont like him
Dude you'd be surprised as to the number of people on other forums who actually love/like or agree with Tobirama's ideals/opinions on the Uchiha and actually see it as fact and use that as the main reason to justify the massacre/genocide of the clan.

But I take it that almost everyone is tired of the Uchiha clan history/heritage and just pretty much become haters so anything negative against the clan is viewed as good

what can ya do?
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Old 2013-02-11, 09:09   Link #130
james0246
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A douche and an asshole are the same thing. I think you're confusing "asshole" with "bad person".
Then ignore the douche line (there is no point in arguing vernacular). Actually, I think Tobirama is a bad person (this is what Hunter was getting at, andit is not something I disagree with). You can't be as callous and unsympathetic as Tobirama is without being a "bad person" (especially in this series where idealism is held in such high regard). I just don't think he is an "asshole".

Now that this convo has reached it's South Parkian level of inanity, I'm going to bow out.
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Old 2013-02-11, 09:10   Link #131
El_Negro
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If anything this chapter confirmed just the opposite. You should know by now that pragmatism is another word for being wrong in this story. The people who always end up right are the (ridiculously overpowered) friendly idealists like Naruto and Hashirama, they are the ones who manage to change things and make them better. Tobirama wasn't right, he merely persevered into making the same errors of the past which paved the way for the same old horrors in the future.

Imagine this world without Hashirama because for all his talk about the greater good of the village Tobirama wouldn't have been able to create it in the first place. He'd never have asked a truce with the Uchiha and in the off chance that it somehow happened the Uchiha would never have chosen him as their leader over their own. This so called rabid clan accepted peace with their mortal enemy, chose the greatest of them as leader and it took then 5 generations of Tobirama's policy + the Kyubi attack and the distrust and segregation that followed for years to make them revolt and plan a coup.
Do you really think that had Hashirama lived the same would have happened? Because it really doesn't seem to me that's what the author is going for. Peace is impossible with [insert any clan/village/people] is what Madara's gunning for but it's not the moral of the story.
quoted for truth
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Old 2013-02-11, 11:30   Link #132
Artimus_Prime
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tobirama sounds a bit envious of the uchiha power imo...i kinda get that frieza to the saiyans vibe...just me. could be wrong...

anyways, im itching to know what the revelation means to the story. from the sage all the way to the present. was the eldest son really intended to be the successor but was usurped? did the eldest son choose might as the way to govern cuz he was well aware of the consequences of emotion? will that damn rabbit ever get that bowl of trix??
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Old 2013-02-11, 11:33   Link #133
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Actually, I think Tobirama is a bad person (this is what Hunter was getting at, andit is not something I disagree with). You can't be as callous and unsympathetic as Tobirama is without being a "bad person" (especially in this series where idealism is held in such high regard). I just don't think he is an "asshole".
Amusingly enough that's not what I was disagreeing with your first assessment, I don't believe the author meant us to think Tobirama is a fundamentally bad person (no matter how cold and callous he is which make him whatever you want to call him) or he wouldn't have made him sacrifice his life to save his subordinates (including an Uchiha).
Tobirama like many old school shinobi in the story is simply the product of his time and he couldn't rise above it like his brother did. We've seen many old ninja like that, generally until Naruto turns on his Colgate power and change them into Carebears (although considering Tobirama appears to be immune to his brother's maybe he's a hard-case).

So the part I think you were wrong is more concerning the fact that the Uchiha were a lost cause. Hashirama proved it wasn't the case and Tobirama worst sin was to give up on this ideal which as Naruto painfully repeats all the time is really something you shouldn't do.
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Old 2013-02-11, 12:38   Link #134
james0246
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Amusingly enough that's not what I was disagreeing with your first assessment, I don't believe the author meant us to think Tobirama is a fundamentally bad person (no matter how cold and callous he is which make him whatever you want to call him) or he wouldn't have made him sacrifice his life to save his subordinates (including an Uchiha).
I think you are overstating the sacrifice. You can still be a "bad person" but sacrifice yourself for family and friends (and country). Nagato is a bad person, but he still sacrificed himself in the end for what he believed to be a higher cause. Itachi is a bad person, but he still sacrificed himself for his brother. If you commit extreme acts of cruelty (edit: or just extreme acts in general) you are generally a bad person, and Tobirama committed such acts (even if he felt it was due to the fact that the Uchiha are biologically driven to insanity whenever they get any power).

Tobirama sacrificed himself for the simple reason that it was more practical for his team to survive and lead Konoha than it was for him to survive but the future generation die. He didn't sacrifice himself out of the kindness of his heart, nor do I think he was being altruistic in any respect. He sacrificed himself because logically he was the only one there that could do what needed to be done while also helping his village. (Shikimaru did something similar during the Sound/Sand invasion.)

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So the part I think you were wrong is more concerning the fact that the Uchiha were a lost cause. Hashirama proved it wasn't the case and Tobirama worst sin was to give up on this ideal which as Naruto painfully repeats all the time is really something you shouldn't do.
As for the Uchiha being a lost cause. Well, they definitely seem to be cursed (if Tobirama's assessment is correct). Any power immediately goes to their head (due to the extreme emotions needed to access such power (there's also the whole curse of hatred thing derived from the Sage choosing the younger son over the elder)), and the continued increase in power drives them mad (Itachi, Obito, Madara, Sasuke, all are arguably less than sane to down right insane, the only Uchiha with extreme power that seems to have had any sanity seems to be Shisui, and he killed himself (presumably)). If Tobirama is correct in his assessment, then they were always going to be a ticking time bomb, he simply, and stupidly, helped speed up their destruction.

Honestly, I do not know if Hashirama appealed to their humanity or he simply made them complacent, whatever the case it is hard to see how simply treating the Uchiha with kindness helped to stave off the monster that presumably lives inside of them. Hopefully Hashirama will be able to discuss this problem next chapter and give us some further insight into why he felt the Uchiha could be saved (whereas Tobirama felt they were doomed since birth).

Last edited by james0246; 2013-02-11 at 12:48.
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Old 2013-02-11, 13:28   Link #135
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Dude you'd be surprised as to the number of people on other forums who actually love/like or agree with Tobirama's ideals/opinions on the Uchiha and actually see it as fact and use that as the main reason to justify the massacre/genocide of the clan.

But I take it that almost everyone is tired of the Uchiha clan history/heritage and just pretty much become haters so anything negative against the clan is viewed as good

what can ya do?
I gues you could call me one of those Uchiha "haters". Tobirama had good cause to not trust the Uchiha, after what Madara did. But yet he placed them in a position of power He made them into the military police, basically put them in charge of the safety of the village. I know Kishimoto is tryin to make it out like they were "segregated" but segregation in the USA involved blacks being powerless, not heading the police force.
The Uchiha still rationalizing that they are somehow the victims is just laughable. Wanting to revolt just because they didn't get good real estate IS a good reason to be put down by Itachi.
Tobirama gave them a chance to regain the village's trust and they blew it. So what if they were suspected for the 9 tails' attack? An Uchiha WAS responsible for it. They should have just swallowed their pride and slowly regain the village's trust instead of plotting a revolt and confirming Tobirama's sterotypes of them.
After reading this chapter I'm glad Itachi did what he did. The clan was hopeless from the start.
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:03   Link #136
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You can still be a "bad person" but sacrifice yourself for family and friends (and country). Nagato is a bad person,
By this definition of bad person 99.9999% of humans are bad. I think none of these characters should be called bad, they were put in extreme conditions and they failed in some matters, but most humans would fail just like they did.
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:19   Link #137
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By this definition of bad person 99.9999% of humans are bad. I think none of these characters should be called bad, they were put in extreme conditions and they failed in some matters, but most humans would fail just like they did.
Hunter (and Kishimoto ) has already established that Naruto is "good", consequently all that do not act like Naruto (or Hashirama) are "bad". There are very few shades of grey in the Narutoverse (Sarutobi?), and being "bad" does not mean you are "evil".

I am not discussing the real world, so please do not bring up realistic examples of humanity or human interaction. The Narutoverse does not correlate to reality, and Naruto is always correct (even when he is not).

Last edited by james0246; 2013-02-11 at 17:11.
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:22   Link #138
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Hunter has already established that Naruto is "good", consequently all that do not act like Naruto (or Hashirama) are "bad". There are very few shades of grey in the Narutoverse, and being "bad" does not mean you are "evil".

I am not discussing the real world, so please do not bring up realistic examples of humanity or human interaction. The Narutoverse does not correlate to reality, and Naruto is always correct (even when he is not).
I didn't want to discuss the real world either, it's more about what we mean by "bad", it would be a really depressing world - be it a manga world or the real - where we call most of the people "bad". Can't they be just average or something like that?
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:30   Link #139
james0246
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I didn't want to discuss the real world either, it's more about what we mean by "bad", it would be a really depressing world - be it a manga world or the real - where we call most of the people "bad". Can't they be just average or something like that?
Very well, unnamed characters do not matter (they have no personalities, thus no alignment). Consequently, quite a bit of the Narutoverse is "good" (acts like Naruto...or at least follows his whims), arguably the vast majority is currently "good", with only a few characters still "bad". Within the Narutoverse, there were more "bad" characters in the past, but the "good" characters were always amongst the most powerful (Hashirama, Minato, Jiraiya, etc).
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Old 2013-02-11, 17:17   Link #140
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Nagato and Itachi bad people?

They did fail at doing the right thing, but they're not bad people.


Maybe the word you're looking for is weak or flawed if you think weak is inappropreate.


A bad person is someone who kicks puppies for whatever reason.


I hereby proclaim that Tobi would kick a puppy if it meant seeing Rin again.
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