Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo - General Discussion

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by totoum

Speaking of jin there's another translation out and that one has him saying on the phone about Misaki "I'd end up taking advantage of her if I saw how depressed she was" rather than the "I'd fuck her silly"

As far as I can judge from knowledge and a couple of dictionaries, the Japanese -- mechakucha ni okashite naritaku naru da yo -- I think the latter is an excellent translation, and the former, although a reasonable paraphrase, is less vivid than the original, and doesn't quite capture his meaning. Literally, I think it's: "...I'd come to want to {ravish/violate/rape} her into {confusion/a wreck/a mess}." Does anyone with better Japanese have a different opinion? I think the connotations are pretty similar to the English "fuck her silly," especially said the way he says it.

I think this means that he does have sexual feelings for Misaki, but that he thinks that indulging them, although it would give her (and him) extreme pleasure, would be against his better judgment that he and she should not be together.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Haak

Well the episode did make a rather stark point about how Sorata underestimated Shiina's autonomy. Though if you're really wondering why Sorata found the idea of a girl who lacks the ability to dress herself going into a love hotel with a Casanova so worrisome...well jealously is one factor.

Yep that's what gave me GC flashbacks.

I'm not really wondering, I just find it to be pathetic plot point. The very concept of this series is a bit downright offensive to me, but I was hoping they could at least stop treating Shiina like a sack of meat soon enough. I feel the main characters of this show are the wrong ones. The side characters are more interesting.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

He might be jealous, but that's hardly the only thing going on. There's also the, you know, douchebag player about to take advantage of the autistic girl I entrust to him (or so it looks to him) angle, which makes the outburst a lot more justifiable. If I were to accuse him of being a chauvanist, it would be on the ground of thinking it's his duty to exact revenge on the other guy for making Misaki cry rather than a jealousy element, which I think is fairly mino)

Overall, I can't see him developing a case of chronic emodouche like Shin did. Even if he is totally maletsun for Mashiro.

Well basically he felt empowered by the fact that a totally hot girl depended on him but realized that he's actually the least special of all of them and consequently felt inferior and dejected. This is what gave me the GC flashback, although I don't believe he'll continue spiraling down that same nonsensical line of plot development of that show.

More to the point I felt the conflict of the episode was much too clumsily put together and reflected very badly on Sorata's character. When Sorata was asked by Shiina why did he come that day, I could not even tell you his exact motivation. A perverse sort of attraction (OK this show is fucked up), or does he really believe he's the sole person who has to watch out for Shiina? Either way it does not make his character admirable, and did he really truly believe Jin was that awful of a person? No, he just felt overly protective of her.

This show REALLLLY needs to stay away from heavy handed drama. So far its an utter disaster on that front IMO.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I'm not really wondering, I just find it to be pathetic plot point. The very concept of this series is a bit downright offensive to me, but I was hoping they could at least stop treating Shiina like a sack of meat soon enough. I feel the main characters of this show are the wrong ones. The side characters are more interesting.

Blonde girl from England living in Japan... a piece of meat? Yea.

And if anything, I feel really really bad for this girl:
http://myanimelist.net/character/64167/Nanami_Aoyama

On that note, I feel sorry for every girl who had a crush on me -- but I never did anything. I am a bad person.

[Snuffle]

So um, why did Mashiro cover Sorata in like a dozen blankets?
And I wonder what Mashiro was thinking when she was listening to Sorata talking on the phone with Jin. She's such an odd one for me to just think up of a general conclusion as to how she was feeling during that scene.

[mod edit: remove reference to spoilers]

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

When Sorata was asked by Shiina why did he come that day, I could not even tell you his exact motivation. A perverse sort of attraction (OK this show is fucked up), or does he really believe he's the sole person who has to watch out for Shiina? Either way it does not make his character admirable, and did he really truly believe Jin was that awful of a person? No, he just felt overly protective of her.

I think you just answered why Sorata couldn't respond to her question. It's because his impulsive motivations likely were a combination of the things you named, which isn't exactly flattering. It's no wonder he couldn't put that in to words, because it seems he realized how immature he was being.

Now the good point is that he did realize this, and as early as episode 3 of a two cour show. Which means there is more than enough time to introduce development and change in their interaction dynamics, and likely means we won't have to suffer through Sorata getting to feel superior over Mashiro because of false assumptions about her. That illusion was crushed in this episode, and he clearly got the message.

I think it's way too early to complain about Guilty Crown levels of silliness, when the show is barely out the gate and the issue of Sorata's perception of Mashiro is already undergoing evolution, before his "superiority complex" (if you want to call it that) was even allowed to take root.

Yes, Sorata's motivations, when one got down to it, might not have been the most admirable, but we are well on our way when it comes to dealing with the issue, and how Sorata is going to change as result. And that's likely to be one of the main points of the show - how Sorata changes (or is forced to change) thanks to all these eccentric but brilliant people around him. He doesn't start in a great place, but at least he is already on a road leading upwards.

[Midonin]

I'm fine with what the series seems to be making its central theme - it's very important to me, and is something worth exploring, I think. Still sticking by my comment about the median level of comedy, though. Once things have moved past this, I wouldn't mind a few more episodes of pure goofiness. If anything, I'd prefer them. And Misaki provided the few this episode did have.

[Skyfall]

I'm sure we will have plenty of comedic interactions in the future, there is no way the show is going to carry the tone of episode 3 through most of its run. Yeah, there are bound to be the bittersweet moments and likely some more gloomy ones as well, but overall this is still a light-hearted show. A light hearted-show with depth to its characters, along which some drama is bound to come along, but still overall positive in the end. Or at the very least, I would be very surprised if that wasn't the case.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

...The very concept of this series is a bit downright offensive to me, but I was hoping they could at least stop treating Shiina like a sack of meat soon enough. I feel the main characters of this show are the wrong ones. The side characters are more interesting....

It's reasonable not to like the concept of the cute genius who can't even dress herself. In that aspect, she is a sex object. But that is a strong part of the show's initial appeal, and it's hard to watch anime and feel too affected by that, since it's so common. In this case, at least she's a genius, and not an idiot. And she is very, very appealing, in her way.

On the other hand, in episode 3 we have just stepped into a whole new territory, that of character and relationship development of the two main characters (among others). Perhaps you are speaking too soon. The side-characters are also having a strong effect on the main characters -- and maybe vice-versa.

In a way, the show has roped people in on the basis of a kind of fanservice, but then shuffled them into a character drama. Bait and switch, perhaps, but in a good way, if it continues. Of course, I agree with Skyfall that the main mood of the show will likely continue to be comic. And the fanservice is not likely to disappear anytime soon.

...More to the point I felt the conflict of the episode was much too clumsily put together and reflected very badly on Sorata's character.... Either way it does not make his character admirable, and did he really truly believe Jin was that awful of a person? No, he just felt overly protective of her....

What is wrong with the main character having character flaws? Is this some kind of young-shounen adventure, whose main point is identification with a flawless hero? There are things about Sorata that I can't identify with, but his flawed nature is fairly familiar, and interesting.

...This show REALLLLY needs to stay away from heavy handed drama. So far its an utter disaster on that front IMO.

I disagree, both that there has been any "heavy handed drama" and that this show has done its drama badly. Light touch all round, it seems to me.

Originally Posted by Snuffle

...So um, why did Mashiro cover Sorata in like a dozen blankets...?

With the first blanket, she was being kind to him, keeping him warm, as he had done for her. Then she saw the colour and, as an artist, thought another might go with it. Then another. And another. It showed her combination of artistic compulsion and inability to control her artistic compulsion. The whole thing was meant to show that she had gotten over any bad feelings she had toward Sorata, and wanted to be nice to him. The extra blankets were a bit of humour to soften the seriousness of that, and also to make her seem cute. At least that's how I see it.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

With the first blanket, she was being kind to him, keeping him warm, as he had done for her. Then she saw the colour and, as an artist, thought another might go with it. Then another. And another. It showed her combination of artistic compulsion and inability to control her artistic compulsion.

Well that's an interesting way to look at it To me it just looked like she thought that one blanket wasn't enough to keep him warm

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Well that's an interesting way to look at it To me it just looked like she thought that one blanket wasn't enough to keep him warm

That too, lol. And if it's that, it would also show her lack of a sense of proportion. But the fact that the blankets were all different colours made me think the artistic thing was involved, as well as warmth.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Yep that's what gave me GC flashbacks.

I'm not really wondering, I just find it to be pathetic plot point. The very concept of this series is a bit downright offensive to me, but I was hoping they could at least stop treating Shiina like a sack of meat soon enough. I feel the main characters of this show are the wrong ones. The side characters are more interesting.

Well, as the board pretentious moe scholar who is watching this for the cute, I'm probably not the best person to ask this, but... Was she ever really just a sack of meat?

Skyfall and Kaoru said a lot of what I would have liked to have said on the subject and a lot clearer too. And frankly, I kind of expected the show would go down this route on the basis of the tongue and cheek title alone. Some of us are pretty savvy about that kind of thing, which is why I found the "proves otaku anime is misogynistic pandering BS" kind of stuff I saw tweeted by ANN such wallbangers.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I think you just answered why Sorata couldn't respond to her question. It's because his impulsive motivations likely were a combination of the things you named, which isn't exactly flattering. It's no wonder he couldn't put that in to words, because it seems he realized how immature he was being.

Now the good point is that he did realize this, and as early as episode 3 of a two cour show. Which means there is more than enough time to introduce development and change in their interaction dynamics, and likely means we won't have to suffer through Sorata getting to feel superior over Mashiro because of false assumptions about her. That illusion was crushed in this episode, and he clearly got the message.

I think it's way too early to complain about Guilty Crown levels of silliness, when the show is barely out the gate and the issue of Sorata's perception of Mashiro is already undergoing evolution, before his "superiority complex" (if you want to call it that) was even allowed to take root.

Yes, Sorata's motivations, when one got down to it, might not have been the most admirable, but we are well on our way when it comes to dealing with the issue, and how Sorata is going to change as result. And that's likely to be one of the main points of the show - how Sorata changes (or is forced to change) thanks to all these eccentric but brilliant people around him. He doesn't start in a great place, but at least he is already on a road leading upwards.

Well you seem to have faith that his character will be more interesting as a result of this development, but for me it just makes the premise that much more questionable to me.

This episode changes the very nature of the show. Before it was mostly a light hearted romp with its usual pandering and laughs, and hey if you didn't like it, well whatever. It is what it is. This episode now expects the audience to understand and sympathize with the characters. It is no longer just a comedic fanservice series.

How they handle Sorata beyond this point is of course critical, but I just don't see how his character can go anywhere that makes sense. Of course he's not going to return to normal life and not interact with the cast we have come to known, otherwise there's no longer a show. This would be the most logical course of action however for his character.

Towards the very end of the episode Shiina asks Sorata if he's going to be leaving the dormitory, and the hesitancy from him only seemed to indicate some sort of guilt over his decision. Ultimately this show is going to find some sort of excuse or reason for him to continue to interact with the people he's come to known, and PROBABLY he'll even continue to live there. This doesn't seem particularly agreeable with me considering his actions and thoughts up to this point, but more importantly if this is the destination, what really has changed?

I'm aware this is me being a little impatient and pessimistic about the outcomes of what we are currently seeing, but this sort of switch and bait plot development historically goes down really badly with me. Reminds me of things like Ore no Imouto, and that's not a good model of story writing for me by any means.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

It's reasonable not to like the concept of the cute genius who can't even dress herself. In that aspect, she is a sex object. But that is a strong part of the show's initial appeal, and it's hard to watch anime and feel too affected by that, since it's so common. In this case, at least she's a genius, and not an idiot. And she is very, very appealing, in her way.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and most anime don't quite have the setup of a guy taking care of another girl his age like a child. I get it, that's part of the comedy, but as of this episode how can I take this as a comedy anymore? They're expecting us to take it seriously now, and THAT bothers me.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

On the other hand, in episode 3 we have just stepped into a whole new territory, that of character and relationship development of the two main characters (among others). Perhaps you are speaking too soon. The side-characters are also having a strong effect on the main characters -- and maybe vice-versa.

In a way, the show has roped people in on the basis of a kind of fanservice, but then shuffled them into a character drama. Bait and switch, perhaps, but in a good way, if it continues. Of course, I agree with Skyfall that the main mood of the show will likely continue to be comic. And the fanservice is not likely to disappear anytime soon.

As I indicated to Skyfall above, I think you guys have more faith in the writing here than me. I just don't really see any good outcomes of this drama for the show's very integrity. I think by switching this, even briefly, to dramatic rather than comedic, it makes the premise seem very sour.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

What is wrong with the main character having character flaws? Is this some kind of young-shounen adventure, whose main point is identification with a flawless hero? There are things about Sorata that I can't identify with, but his flawed nature is fairly familiar, and interesting.

No problem with flaws. My favorite show is NGE so I hope that speaks enough. However, it's not the flaws in themselves that make or break his character. It is how the flaws are used to create a story, and in this case it's not a very interesting story for me. If he's so seemingly petty that he cannot

However, it depends on how the flaws develop the story. For me the flaws here seem to bring down the show since it has now setup a situation where I feel the character development will be 1 step forward and 2 steps back. I described what I meant by this briefly above, but the way I see it, the only logical course of action for Sorata would be to move out and get on with his life. If he's supposedly recognized how petty he's been. But we all know there'd be no show if that is the case, so there is going to have to be some other compelling reason for him to stay around (Even if he doesn't live there).

My assumption at this point is that it will be for the very same reasons that got him into trouble this episode. My best guess is that he will stay for Shiina because of his somewhat weird perverted attraction to her. It could be that Shiina asks to him to stay too because she "needs" him (misogynistic premise comes back again). OR MAYBE he finds some sort of passion randomly that he's good at and then he all of a sudden decides that's enough for him to feel accepted there (Hopefully not).

I just don't really see any good options here that don't just take the story back to the status quot, and if that's where we are going back to, then that is quite annoying. This drama detour just does not seem to serve anything. This is why I would much prefer it to stay to comedy, since this drama does not seem like it will bring forth any compelling development.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Well, as the board pretentious moe scholar who is watching this for the cute, I'm probably not the best person to ask this, but... Was she ever really just a sack of meat?

I think when you have a girl so clueless about her sexuality and sense of self in general that she gets on top of the main character in a sexual position while not feeling any sense of embarassment (Or anything else for that matter) that is notably human, then she stopped functioning as a human being and more as a doll. In this case the doll is sexualized a lot, and so for me, she's just a sack of meat.

I get it, this is all played for comedy. However, as I said above, the drama here expects the audience to take the show at least somewhat seriously now and that sours the viewing experience for me.

[Midonin]

I don't see why a comedy can't be taken seriously. (Or at least, be worthy of analysis.) There's no inherit contradiction there. I find comedy more interesting to analyze than drama, but I recognize that value may not apply to everyone.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Midonin

I don't see why a comedy can't be taken seriously. (Or at least, be worthy of analysis.) There's no inherit contradiction there. I find comedy more interesting to analyze than drama, but I recognize that value may not apply to everyone.

Dramedy is fine, if the comedy doesn't harm the believability of the drama or if the drama takes the wind out of the comedy. In this case, I think the series lost its comedic edge since the comedic scenes now seem so terribly wrong and somewhat misogynistic.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Towards the very end of the episode Shiina asks Sorata if he's going to be leaving the dormitory, and the hesitancy from him only seemed to indicate some sort of guilt over his decision. Ultimately this show is going to find some sort of excuse or reason for him to continue to interact with the people he's come to known, and PROBABLY he'll even continue to live there. This doesn't seem particularly agreeable with me considering his actions and thoughts up to this point, but more importantly if this is the destination, what really has changed?

I don't quite agree that Sorata needs to leave the dorm in order for him to develop as a character. He needs to change himself, not where he lives at - the later isn't particularly important when it comes to what type of person he is, after all. And that's what his realizations essentially came down to - that he has to change his attitude and actually aim for some sort of a goal, rather than drifting along.

And that's to say something in a more broad sense, instead of ultimately small things like switching dorms. It's like Jin noted at the very start - him complaining about the Sakura Hall is simply trying to find something to blame, misplacing responsibility. It's not the Sakura Hall that is responsible for Sorata's floundering about, Sorata is. It's important for him to change himself, not his address - the later doesn't accomplish anything without the former, and is ultimately of no matter - an excuse, like Jin said.

It's not like the dorm itself is holding him back in any way. disregarding the comedy routine, what actually bothers him is how everyone, their eccentric personalities aside, have clear aspirations and are working towards them. He does not - and that's the thing he has to work on. Moving out of the dorm and placing himself back among other averages (refer back to start of ep1 when we see his whole class as transparent figures) won't accomplish that, it would only put the actual issue further out of sight.

Of course that doesn't mean that Sorata has to live in Sakura Hall in order to change whom he is, chances are that he could move back to the regular dorms and accomplish the same with his newfound motivation. But that's kinda the point - Sakura Hall or the regular dorms, it doesn't really matter. Him being able to change as a person isn't dependent on which dorm he lives in, or who are his neighbors. It could be a symbolic change of pace, but that's just that - symbolic.

And he needs an actual change, not a symbolic one - hence why it got called an excuse. And he can evolve as a person irregardless of where he lives, it's not like the dorm is holding him back in any way, thus his potential development isn't really tied to, or hampered by what house he lives in.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

It's not like the dorm itself is holding him back in any way. disregarding the comedy routine, what actually bothers him is how everyone, their eccentric personalities aside, have clear aspirations and are working towards them. He does not - and that's the thing he has to work on. Moving out of the dorm and placing himself back among other averages (refer back to start of ep1 when we see his whole class as transparent figures) won't accomplish that, it would only put the actual issue further out of sight.

Actually, I think we're missing an important aspect here. He wants to move out of Sakurasou, because the tennants are weird, and he doesn't want the social stigma. Everyone else living there gets away with it, because they're extraordinarily talented. He sees himself as ordinary and not that ambitious, so he thinks he cannot counter the stigma. If he stays here, he will stand out, which is something people like to avoid in Japan.

But he moved in there, because he was unwilling to abandon a cat. It's something Nanami (the voice of normality in the show) admires him for. And while he lived there, he picked up more cats. Even if he got rid of those cats, do you think he can move back into the dorms and never pick up another cat? He's a compulsory "pet rescuer".

So do you think the dorm teacher was being "irresponsible" when she put the responsibility for Shiina getting to school in his hands? I actually don't think so. I'm pretty sure she was being a teacher.

So when he complains about having nothing (instead of about how weird everyone is), then that's a sign that he wants to stay, but he needs to justify it to himself. He's a confused, easy to embarrass teenager, in a confusing, embarrassing setting; but he's getting used to it.

Nanami is his connection to the normal world. The misunderstanding with Shiina ("He's my first (male friend).") is interesting in that respect. The misunderstanding got cleared up, but if Nanami knew what's really going down, despite only being friends? That illustrates Sorata's dillema: he's moving in two incompatible "politeness zones", and he's starting to feel at home in both.

So in this episode, Sorata chases after Shiina and Jin, because he can't let go of his rescuer-complex (Shiina), but also because he's uncomfortable with and doesn't trust the Sakurasou life-style (Jin). The former impulse drives him towards Sakurasou, the latter drives him away.

I find that everything in this episode was pretty well set up. I was surprised that we got this far in episode 3 of two-cour show. I'm fairly sure that the show knows what it's doing.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Of course that doesn't mean that Sorata has to live in Sakura Hall in order to change whom he is, chances are that he could move back to the regular dorms and accomplish the same with his newfound motivation. But that's kinda the point - Sakura Hall or the regular dorms, it doesn't really matter. Him being able to change as a person isn't dependent on which dorm he lives in, or who are his neighbors. It could be a symbolic change of pace, but that's just that - symbolic.

And he needs an actual change, not a symbolic one - hence why it got called an excuse. And he can evolve as a person irregardless of where he lives, it's not like the dorm is holding him back in any way, thus his potential development isn't really tied to, or hampered by what house he lives in.

You are correct in that his exact location is not a make or break deal. However, to invoke a cliche, actions do speak louder than words of course. If he really wants to make a change within himself, I'd start with his environment. I think the show has definitely sent the message at this point that he doesn't feel like he fits in at Sankurasou so moving out would be more conducive to fixing his current dilemma rather than staying.

I guess the show is going to offer a compelling reason why he should stay, if that is what he ends up doing (Predictably I might add), based on the fact that he seemed guilty when Shiina asked if he's moving out. There are probably two reasons he would stay... The more obviously foreshadowed one is that he will try to do something about designing a game (He pondered that in the episode and ended up not even taking the effort). It's a bit too convenient for my liking, but workable as he'd feel like he's actually doing something and would not have to feel jealous anymore... The second is if he stays simply to continue on his twisted misogynistic relationship with Shiina which I just find very disagreeable.

Heck it might be a bit of both, but so long as it staves clear of the second issue then it might be OK. The problem as I alluded to earlier though is that the way the story has developed has effectively made every event in this story something you take at face value. Some of the comedic moments are not just silly fun like they were before, they reflect heavily on the characters themselves and what problems they have as people. It is just not as easy to take things at a stride like a girl just wandering around nude in her room or undressing around a guy so cluelessly.

Anyhow, after talking it through and thinking about it, I'll give the series the benefit of the doubt for now. Somethings do indeed bother me, particularly the portrayal of Shiina at times, but I can live with it. It just makes me mad that something I mainly perceived as a comedy up till now has decided to become something else. Not really an issue of expectation so much as a confusion about direction here.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The second is if he stays simply to continue on his twisted misogynistic relationship with Shiina which I just find very disagreeable.

The vast majority of Sorata's action have nothing to do with her being a girl,put a boy instead and would have taken care of that boy,would have had the same reaction when leaning that person is a talented painter and would have "rescued" that boy from being dragged into a love hotel by a girl.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This episode changes the very nature of the show. Before it was mostly a light hearted romp with its usual pandering and laughs, and hey if you didn't like it, well whatever. It is what it is. This episode now expects the audience to understand and sympathize with the characters. It is no longer just a comedic fanservice series.

You made a conclusion on the nature of the show within two~three episodes?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by totoum

The vast majority of Sorata's action have nothing to do with her being a girl,put a boy instead and would have taken care of that boy,would have had the same reaction when leaning that person is a talented painter and would have "rescued" that boy from being dragged into a love hotel by a girl.

This is a bit intellectually dishonest don't you think?

We all know why she's a girl, a hot girl at that.

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

You made a conclusion on the nature of the show within two~three episodes?

It's not a conclusion, it's an observation in progress.