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Old 2007-11-26, 06:24   Link #561
chibamonster
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* and jumped on an opponents sword

I think the most telling part of the fight is that Teresa won. Both times. Yes she didn't detect the last minute deception and let her guard down while trying to help Priscilla die as a human. Bad call. She didn't expect the girl begging for death to suddenly change her mind. But Teresa beat down Priscilla without releasing very much of her youki. I think that the reason Teresa wasn't sure about beating Priscilla the next time was because it would end up like the fight between Isley and Luciella; nuclear youki war.

Teresa's strength has now become Clare's, and it tore Rigald into lion confetti .
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Old 2007-11-26, 09:23   Link #562
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
I'm always glad to discuss Teresa vs Priscilla. It's a fascinating study with lots to explore. ES3 showed that Priscilla as a fully awakened being can do much much more than what she was shown to be capable of in chapter 23, the most hated chapter in all of Claymore which details the account of her awakening. The org does say that Priscilla locked much of her power in a potential state, a state that they believed would surpass Teresa's. They didn't count on that potential being realized by her awakening instead of by experiencing a prosperous career as their number 1 warrior.
The problem was, from what extra chapter 3 showed, Priscilla did not realize her latent potential when she awakened, she was still blocking off most of her power. It was not until Isley damaged Priscilla significantly that her mental block was destroyed and she unleashed that potential, and now we have the most dangerous being in the Claymoreverse with the mind of a child.

Quote:
However, Teresa herself was a pillar of untapped potential, so powerful she only on occasion released 10% of her power, not out of need to call upon that power but simply to exercise it like doing arm curls. The only time she needed this power was in fighting the very Priscilla who was said to surpass her. So let's look at how their individual potentials were unlocked, though I'll be trumpeting things I've said before.
I wouldn't call Teresa's power "untapped" as much as "unused" Due to Teresa experience I am more then willing to bet she could use every ounce of her power like Galatea was able to.

Quote:
Say what you will of Priscilla's mental state during their second round of fighting, it does not show that she was any less lethal a threat. In fact, she had even inflicted Teresa some slight injury. Priscilla, based on the visible physical distortions that mark the amount of yoki release, had increasingly released until return was no longer possible (or at least very very difficult), which is said to be at around 80+%. With increasing yoki release, she gave Teresa everything that she had out of pure hatred of yoma which she projected onto Teresa. Yet, throughout this fight Teresa only needed to call upon that 10% release, which was more than enough to not only fend off Priscilla's vicious attacks but dominate her. So there was a lot in reserve that Teresa had that was still in that potential state, whereas Priscilla was just about exhausting hers. Whether Yagi intended for it to come out this way or not, this is compelling evidence that the Org had grossly underestimated Teresa's potential. Then there's also the controversial matter with Rosemary.
The entire problem with this is (other then the immense experience gap) that Priscilla was still barred from most of her power at this point, if the Organization's information is to be believed even for a moment, then Priscilla was not even capable of accessing her power despite her berserk state.

In other words Priscilla had alot more going then just 80-100%, its more like 80-100% with about 200% of unusable (at the time) energy.
In other words; she had for more energy then she had a right to.

Quote:
Lots of stuff I agree with
I concur, but I believe that the experience gap would not matter as much if Priscilla ever reached Teresa's level of experience.

------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Heh heh, I wouldn't say that Teresa completely dominated Priscilla now... :waits for the ire of the Teresa fans:

Priscilla wasn't that much of a 'rookie' as well. Sure she was only months out of the ORG but her sword skills, at the time, were pretty top notch. It's like taking the top student of a sword style and pitting them against a master - at that point, staying calm under that kind of pressure is the key to overcoming the experience gap. Her biggest mistake against Teresa was that she lost her cool.

It was only after Teresa stopped trying to read Priscilla's Youki and fight using her eyes, reflexes and whatnot as in a regular fight, it was then that Teresa started to gain the upper hand. You'd notice that in nearly every frame, she faced Priscilla head-on while Noel and Sophia, she took out most of the time without facing them directly. Teresa had also become a lot more versatile in her combat techniques than most Claymores. She's the only Claymore I've seen that has actually kicked in a fight.
Actually Priscilla was quite the rookie, she was just immensely talented. I more accurate depiction would be a Master versus a prodigy.

---------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
* and jumped on an opponents sword

I think the most telling part of the fight is that Teresa won. Both times. Yes she didn't detect the last minute deception and let her guard down while trying to help Priscilla die as a human. Bad call. She didn't expect the girl begging for death to suddenly change her mind. But Teresa beat down Priscilla without releasing very much of her youki. I think that the reason Teresa wasn't sure about beating Priscilla the next time was because it would end up like the fight between Isley and Luciella; nuclear youki war.

Teresa's strength has now become Clare's, and it tore Rigald into lion confetti .
The fight between Isley and Lucalea would be a good contrast, nearly equal opponents fighting to the death, remeber that even thought Isley won, he was almost dead himself.

I believe if Teresa and Priscilla fought at a later date then their fight would have been very similar, with an unknown outcome.

and we all know that Clare has inherited Teresa's haxxor skills She just has yet to actually realize that potential.
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Old 2007-11-26, 10:35   Link #563
Tempest35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post

Actually Priscilla was quite the rookie, she was just immensely talented. I more accurate depiction would be a Master versus a prodigy.
Hmm, so Priscilla vs Teresa can be compared to the Count Dooku (Darth Tyrannus) vs young Anakin battle in Star Wars Ep II. Anakin was the prodigy but Count Dooku was a seasoned vet and highly skilled in battle as well as the Force. Dooku whooped him.

What would have happened if Priscilla didn't flip out and withdrew was the 2nd battle between Count Dooku and an older, more experienced Anakin in SW Ep III.

Sorry if no one gets the Star Wars references.
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Old 2007-11-26, 13:13   Link #564
Fenrir_valindri
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Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Hmm, so Priscilla vs Teresa can be compared to the Count Dooku (Darth Tyrannus) vs young Anakin battle in Star Wars Ep II. Anakin was the prodigy but Count Dooku was a seasoned vet and highly skilled in battle as well as the Force. Dooku whooped him.

What would have happened if Priscilla didn't flip out and withdrew was the 2nd battle between Count Dooku and an older, more experienced Anakin in SW Ep III.

Sorry if no one gets the Star Wars references.
Actually it is more like Anikin versus Obi-wan, and then later Darth Vader versus Obi-wan, cause I hated count Dooku, and would rather compare obi-wan to Teresa then him

But no more star wars references :P
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Old 2007-11-26, 13:26   Link #565
irvinethearcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri
I don't think she was thinking something as clear as "I need to awaken my arms and legs to kill him." It was more like "I need to be faster, faster ,faster ,faster" and then "I need more power!!."

These were very primal and immediate needs, not something Clare was conciously controlling.
Clare:This is not enough...not even nearly enough.
Rigardo trying to kill miria and helen
Rigardo: You're in the way. Trying to attack from a distance.
Rigardo: Sorry, that won't work again. This time you couldn't save her.
Clare managed to control somehow her legs and gets in the gap between
Rigardo and Miria/Helen

Rigardo: Wha...? How did she bring this insane speed under her control?
Clare: Not enought... more ... more. More Power.
Rigardo: Wha...? This little...
Helen: Clare!!
Clare: Not enough still not enough. MORE POWER!
Helen: Stop it, don't go any further Clare.
Clare: Killing Flora, killing jean...how dare you?
Rigardo: You realized the single one way to defeat me. An awakening of all 4 limbs Superb!
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Old 2007-11-26, 14:35   Link #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
In other words Priscilla had alot more going then just 80-100%, its more like 80-100% with about 200% of unusable (at the time) energy.
In other words; she had for more energy then she had a right to.
But just think even 200% more she wouldn't be able to beat Teresa persay because Teresa only had to use 10% to take complete controle of the fight, so 10% Teresa is more than even 80-85% of Prissy.

Even if she had 400% more, Teresa could still go higher I believe.
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Old 2007-11-26, 15:05   Link #567
khryoleoz
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What Fenrir is saying is that even at the 80+% release Priscilla was still using just a small fraction of her available power. That's believable. It's just that that doesn't mean that Teresa didn't have even much more under the hood that she could have fought back with. While Priscilla kept hidden what the org estimated surpassed Teresa, Teresa also kept hidden something beyond the org's estimation. Priscilla could have brought everything she had and Teresa would still have an answer that is on a conservative scale.
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Old 2007-11-26, 15:11   Link #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamezterr View Post
But just think even 200% more she wouldn't be able to beat Teresa persay because Teresa only had to use 10% to take complete controle of the fight, so 10% Teresa is more than even 80-85% of Prissy.

Even if she had 400% more, Teresa could still go higher I believe.
Yep, totally agree.

As for this untapped potential you're constantly mentioning Fenrir_valindri, I've already posted my response page earlier. I will only add that every AB are holding their energy back and unless it's necessary they're not overusing it. The difference between others and Prisicilla was that she had much more power than average AB.
I would appreciate if You could quote exact words which indicate that Priscilla didn't realize her latent potential. However You would interpret Extra Chapter 3, Priscilla just after killing Teresa and just before owning Isley were two totally different persons. When she obliterated him she used full power, so what ? She didn't last long using it and that's what counts. Call it weak mind or whatever, but the result was the same as exhaustion of AB youki. Also Teresa wasn't even close to 100% when she showed her power.
What I don't understand either is why are You assuming that experience had that much of a difference. If Priscilla was a prodigy and had stronger yoma powers, no matter how experienced Teresa was she couldn't have owned her the way she did. Prisiclla wasn't even close to her skills. What's more Teresa didn't have experience fighting powerful adversaries, from what we know besides Rosemary she killed only small fries so her experience would be of no use against "the claymore with potential greater than hers". Prisiclla's power was on a completely different level, nonetheless Teresa instantly adapted to her skills and played with her.
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Old 2007-11-26, 16:07   Link #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamezterr View Post
But just think even 200% more she wouldn't be able to beat Teresa persay because Teresa only had to use 10% to take complete controle of the fight, so 10% Teresa is more than even 80-85% of Prissy.

Even if she had 400% more, Teresa could still go higher I believe.

Ultimately, this all will just culminate into the eternal struggle of finesse vs. raw power.

Teresa and Priscilla are actually the very best example for this sort of predicament, since both of them carry those aspects within them, yet one can see a rather clear disposition towards one of those for each of them respectively.

Teresa being a much more refined, not to say virtually unmatched, conventional swordfighter with a great amount of youki to empower her extraordinary skills even further.
Priscilla, bearing a superior amount of youki within herself while still being a very capable swordfighter.

In a sense, they are not complete polar opposites, really, since both of them can still muster an overwhelming amount of talent in their respective "shortcomings".

Teresa can still fight equally with Priscilla even when she'd already apply a considerable amount of her own youki into her attacks, which is, of course, because she's a better conventional fighter, coupled with her own inate ability of youki-reading.
At some point, however, even Teresa would have to apply a certain amount of her own youki to counteract Priscillas superior raw power, lest she'd risk to get worn out with the passage of time and blows she'd have to take.

That amount, however, will always be less than the amount that Priscilla will have to spend.
As it would seem, Teresa is actually a much more economical fighter on the whole spectrum, since Priscilla would always cross the border long before Teresa does.

I don't think that much would change if both of them would have become AB, it would still have been the same principle to how they actually carry themselves in a duell. Add to that, that there's no certainty that Claymore Teresa couldn't have beaten Priscilla post-transformation.

My bet will always remain on skill/finesse on the long run, if we are talking about what will be the dominant factor in a match. Yet, even finesse will have to be backed up by strength at some point, especially if your opponent can tap into a large reserve of youki, like Priscilla.

None of those "extremes" are infallible however. There are too many unknowns and distractions/interferences that can change the tides of an already clear victory. Especially if both opponents are roughly considered equivalent in capabilities.
Sometimes, it will not be skill or power which will decide the outcome of a match, but a chance surge of emotions that will put either one out of balance.

For the record, i don't believe in luck or fate, but rather in circumstances.
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Old 2007-11-26, 19:19   Link #570
Fenrir_valindri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irvinethearcher View Post
Clare:This is not enough...not even nearly enough.
Rigardo trying to kill miria and helen
Rigardo: You're in the way. Trying to attack from a distance.
Rigardo: Sorry, that won't work again. This time you couldn't save her.
Clare managed to control somehow her legs and gets in the gap between
Rigardo and Miria/Helen

Rigardo: Wha...? How did she bring this insane speed under her control?
Clare: Not enought... more ... more. More Power.
Rigardo: Wha...? This little...
Helen: Clare!!
Clare: Not enough still not enough. MORE POWER!
Helen: Stop it, don't go any further Clare.
Clare: Killing Flora, killing jean...how dare you?
Rigardo: You realized the single one way to defeat me. An awakening of all 4 limbs Superb!
So Rigaldo is a mind reader now? It is obvious from Clare's dialogue that she was not in a sound state of mind, she was just focused on destroying the object of her aggression. Clare did not carefully plan out a 4 limbed awakening, she just threw more and more power where she needed, headless of her own limits.

------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamezterr View Post
But just think even 200% more she wouldn't be able to beat Teresa persay because Teresa only had to use 10% to take complete controle of the fight, so 10% Teresa is more than even 80-85% of Prissy.

Even if she had 400% more, Teresa could still go higher I believe.
That is theory-craft right there. Remember, Teresa's experience and finesse played a huge role in her defeating Priscilla, its not like they had an arm wrestling contest and Teresa won (unlike Rosemary.)

A berserk and unfocused warrior would of course lose to someone of Teresa's calibur, unless the Raw power advantage was so huge it could not be compinsated for (which is why Teresa started to use Yoki)

--------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
What Fenrir is saying is that even at the 80+% release Priscilla was still using just a small fraction of her available power. That's believable. It's just that that doesn't mean that Teresa didn't have even much more under the hood that she could have fought back with. While Priscilla kept hidden what the org estimated surpassed Teresa, Teresa also kept hidden something beyond the org's estimation. Priscilla could have brought everything she had and Teresa would still have an answer that is on a conservative scale.
Teresa had about 70% more, give or take. But I disgress, even if Priscilla had access to her latent potential at this point, it would be useless without combat experience and skill, which were Teresa's largest advantages.

---------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
Yep, totally agree.

As for this untapped potential you're constantly mentioning Fenrir_valindri, I've already posted my response page earlier. I will only add that every AB are holding their energy back and unless it's necessary they're not overusing it. The difference between others and Prisicilla was that she had much more power than average AB.
Other ABs waste energy to maintain there Awakened forms, but Priscilla was actually cut-off from her power. That is a pretty big difference.

It is obvious that her mental block still existed up till Extra Chapter 3, as she was being dominated by Isley, and then suddenly obliterates half his body. She was clearly stronger then Rigaldo, but weaker then an Abyssal One at this point, but after getting amnesia (courtesy of Isley) her level of power suddenly shoots up.

Just because Priscilla went berserk against Teresa does not mean she is suddenly able to get past her own subconcious block.

Quote:
I would appreciate if You could quote exact words which indicate that Priscilla didn't realize her latent potential. However You would interpret Extra Chapter 3, Priscilla just after killing Teresa and just before owning Isley were two totally different persons. When she obliterated him she used full power, so what ? She didn't last long using it and that's what counts. Call it weak mind or whatever, but the result was the same as exhaustion of AB youki. Also Teresa wasn't even close to 100% when she showed her power.
It should be quite obvious from the events of extra chapter 3 that her power dramatically changed. It did not last long because Priscilla's child-like mind was only trying to defend itself at this point. She had no real desire to kill Isley anymore, which is why Isley realized he could use her.

As for Teresa, she was anywhere from 10%-29% (Golden Eyed stage) I assume 10% myself.

Quote:
What I don't understand either is why are You assuming that experience had that much of a difference. If Priscilla was a prodigy and had stronger yoma powers, no matter how experienced Teresa was she couldn't have owned her the way she did. Prisiclla wasn't even close to her skills. What's more Teresa didn't have experience fighting powerful adversaries, from what we know besides Rosemary she killed only small fries so her experience would be of no use against "the claymore with potential greater than hers". Prisiclla's power was on a completely different level, nonetheless Teresa instantly adapted to her skills and played with her.
Being a prodigy can only take you so far, and considering Teresa was more then a bit of a prodigy herself, experience plays a HUGE role. Teresa was cool-headed, experienced, and didn't have mental baggage weighing her down.
While Priscilla was hot-headed, inexperienced, and blindly idealistic, not to mention cut off from a large portion of her own talents.

The final power-gap between the two probaby not be large in the end, but it would likely be in Priscilla's favor (although Yoki-sensing screws up any measurement of raw power)

------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyEd View Post
Ultimately, this all will just culminate into the eternal struggle of finesse vs. raw power.

Teresa and Priscilla are actually the very best example for this sort of predicament, since both of them carry those aspects within them, yet one can see a rather clear disposition towards one of those for each of them respectively.

Teresa being a much more refined, not to say virtually unmatched, conventional swordfighter with a great amount of youki to empower her extraordinary skills even further.
Priscilla, bearing a superior amount of youki within herself while still being a very capable swordfighter.

In a sense, they are not complete polar opposites, really, since both of them can still muster an overwhelming amount of talent in their respective "shortcomings".

Teresa can still fight equally with Priscilla even when she'd already apply a considerable amount of her own youki into her attacks, which is, of course, because she's a better conventional fighter, coupled with her own inate ability of youki-reading.
At some point, however, even Teresa would have to apply a certain amount of her own youki to counteract Priscillas superior raw power, lest she'd risk to get worn out with the passage of time and blows she'd have to take.

That amount, however, will always be less than the amount that Priscilla will have to spend.
As it would seem, Teresa is actually a much more economical fighter on the whole spectrum, since Priscilla would always cross the border long before Teresa does.

I don't think that much would change if both of them would have become AB, it would still have been the same principle to how they actually carry themselves in a duell. Add to that, that there's no certainty that Claymore Teresa couldn't have beaten Priscilla post-transformation.

My bet will always remain on skill/finesse on the long run, if we are talking about what will be the dominant factor in a match. Yet, even finesse will have to be backed up by strength at some point, especially if your opponent can tap into a large reserve of youki, like Priscilla.

None of those "extremes" are infallible however. There are too many unknowns and distractions/interferences that can change the tides of an already clear victory. Especially if both opponents are roughly considered equivalent in capabilities.
Sometimes, it will not be skill or power which will decide the outcome of a match, but a chance surge of emotions that will put either one out of balance.

For the record, i don't believe in luck or fate, but rather in circumstances.
For the most part I agree, I do think that time would have favored Priscilla more though, as she would refine her talents to the point where she would be an immensely skilled "finnesse" fighter as well. I'd still say the fight would be close.

Alot of People seem to underestimate finnese > raw power.

I do believe that Teresa would have been able to beat AB Priscilla (back in volume 5) but I am not so sure about Post-Extra chapter 3 Priscilla, although she is basically a child at this point.

Its like comparing a metal baseball bat to a finally crafted sword.
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Old 2007-11-26, 19:45   Link #571
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I think it's safe to assume Teresa was using approximately 10% Youki against Priscilla.

Ilena: “I don’t believe it! Teresa repelled Priscilla’s massive strength…using just enough Youki for her eye color to change. That’s the true nature…of Teresa’s strength.” [Vol. 5, Ch. 23, Pg. 49]
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Old 2007-11-26, 21:25   Link #572
khryoleoz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Teresa had about 70% more, give or take. But I disgress, even if Priscilla had access to her latent potential at this point, it would be useless without combat experience and skill, which were Teresa's largest advantages.
I don't see why you give Priscilla that much more room (up to 200%) for power and give Teresa (who actually demonstrated more power) only 70% more. In the first place, Teresa beats Priscilla in yoki content, the essential source of yoma power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
It is obvious that her mental block still existed up till Extra Chapter 3, as she was being dominated by Isley, and then suddenly obliterates half his body. She was clearly stronger then Rigaldo, but weaker then an Abyssal One at this point, but after getting amnesia (courtesy of Isley) her level of power suddenly shoots up.

Just because Priscilla went berserk against Teresa does not mean she is suddenly able to get past her own subconcious block.
I don't buy your interpretation of the scene. Unlike in the anime, we don't find Priscilla to have suffered any mental regression, or at least one that was the result of meeting Isley. She had always been calling for mama and papa since fighting Teresa. She acts no differently when she first met Isley than when she fought Teresa. In fact, what chapter 23 shows is that it was in fighting Teresa that lifted any mental block Priscilla had restraining her power. Facing Isley only made it necessary to use more power than she needed to fight Rigald or Teresa or Irene. And that's obvious, since Isley had been the strongest foe she had faced since Teresa. ES3 offers no information that makes it necessary for us to believe she had a limiter on that was turned off when fighting Isley. On the other hand, that thinking is backwards. If she suffered any mental regression at the hands of Isley, THIS would be the cause of a new mental block. I also know what Isley said. But it seems that his surprise stems from an assumption he makes about her character and seeing her cry for mama and papa was not what he was expecting. I can't make a case for universal application here, but we've seen at least two ABs retain some remnant of their human lives. Ophelia kept her brother in the back of her mind, and in the end longed for him. Priscilla happened to have retained her affection for her lost parents. This mental regression, which is really degeneration, happened long before Isley...it happened under the perceived threat of Teresa's sword.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
It should be quite obvious from the events of extra chapter 3 that her power dramatically changed. It did not last long because Priscilla's child-like mind was only trying to defend itself at this point. She had no real desire to kill Isley anymore, which is why Isley realized he could use her.
Not really. All the scene informs us about is that she demonstrated an ability we haven't seen before. That doesn't mean she has gained a new or stronger power she's never had until that time. Isley was somewhat kicking her ass at first, so she needed to resort to something that would work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
Being a prodigy can only take you so far, and considering Teresa was more then a bit of a prodigy herself, experience plays a HUGE role. Teresa was cool-headed, experienced, and didn't have mental baggage weighing her down.
While Priscilla was hot-headed, inexperienced, and blindly idealistic, not to mention cut off from a large portion of her own talents.

The final power-gap between the two probaby not be large in the end, but it would likely be in Priscilla's favor (although Yoki-sensing screws up any measurement of raw power)
What I'm saying is that we can give Priscilla all the time and room she needed to develop and mature to become that seasoned veteran warrior, but unless Teresa ran into the absolute limits of her own power and capacity to improve (by being complacent or lagging or being too distracted), she would still be ahead of Priscilla by the simple fact that she would have been a warrior for much longer still. You can bet that whatever Priscilla learns of or masters at any one time, Teresa did so years ago and is now busy learning and mastering other things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri View Post
For the most part I agree, I do think that time would have favored Priscilla more though, as she would refine her talents to the point where she would be an immensely skilled "finnesse" fighter as well. I'd still say the fight would be close.

Alot of People seem to underestimate finnese > raw power.

I do believe that Teresa would have been able to beat AB Priscilla (back in volume 5) but I am not so sure about Post-Extra chapter 3 Priscilla, although she is basically a child at this point.

Its like comparing a metal baseball bat to a finally crafted sword.
While I can agree with you about their power gap in the end, I can't rationalize how things would lean in Priscilla's favor. Aura Supression isn't enough to take on Teresa. Priscilla will have to release, and when she releases Teresa can read it. Priscilla can release so much yoki that it overwhelms Teresa's senses, but Teresa again doesn't need to rely on sensing to dominate her. So if Priscilla's battle competency is equal to Teresa's, then it will come down to power. The stats reveal that the org has measured Teresa to have a stronger yoki than Priscilla. Even if we can't rely on this, both hide an immeasurable amount of power. If Priscilla had more power that lie dormant in a potential state and Teresa had reserve power that was in an actual state but simply hidden, then Teresa holds the advantage because real reserve power is more reliable than anything in a potential but not actual state. However, I do believe that Teresa too had untapped potential. Someone who had so much power that she had never needed to release more than 10% of her yoki at any time (including fighting the greatest opponent she had ever faced) is someone who has potential not yet realized beyond that. I think that that is what's so revealing about their duel and ES1.

Don't count me as one of those who underestimate finesse in favor of raw power. The simple notion I hold to is that Teresa had much much more of BOTH than did Priscilla. Want to discuss things that are obvious? The weakness I find in arguing for Priscilla is that one has to reach and make excuses about why she didn't fare so well. On the other hand, arguing for Teresa is easy. In a situation where anyone else would have been at a great disadvantage having to face a group consisting of the 4 strongest warriors after herself, one of them was said to have the "potential" to be better whose inherent gift nullifies her own, and that group led by a fine warrior who possessed an effectively lethal attack and is acknowledged to be one of the best tacticians around, Teresa on the merits of her fighting ability easily won! Well, until she lost, having been misled into thinking that the fight was over (though she was not without fault for letting her guard down).

Last edited by khryoleoz; 2007-11-26 at 22:21.
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Old 2007-11-26, 21:46   Link #573
Devilz911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khryoleoz
You can bet that whatever Priscilla learns of or masters at any one time, Teresa did so years ago and is now busy learning and mastering other things.
I thought she was busy with Clare. Eventually Priscilla would catch up to Teresa in skill and experience, while Teresa's skill as a warrior slowly declines.
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Old 2007-11-26, 21:48   Link #574
FateAnomaly
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We would just have to see if Clare could defeat Priscilla eventually. Clare who inherited Teresa power will be a good gauge to see if Teresa could have won.

I personally believe Teresa to be the strongest. When they say potential, it is just that, merely potential. Who is to say Teresa wouldn't grow stronger even as Priscilla grows stonger. Teresa softheartedness will probably be a handicap though. (And it did killed her) The fact is she did won in a straight fight.
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:00   Link #575
khryoleoz
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
We would just have to see if Clare could defeat Priscilla eventually. Clare who inherited Teresa power will be a good gauge to see if Teresa could have won.

I personally believe Teresa to be the strongest. When they say potential, it is just that, merely potential. Who is to say Teresa wouldn't grow stronger even as Priscilla grows stonger. Teresa softheartedness will probably be a handicap though. (And it did killed her) The fact is she did won in a straight fight.
Clare will defeat Priscilla inevitably. It's beautiful that in so fewer words, you've managed to make the point I've labored to make. We've only seen Teresa's softness affect only her character judgement. Her battle assessment and fighting ability remained intact and she was as sharp as ever.
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:09   Link #576
FateAnomaly
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Originally Posted by Devilz911 View Post
I thought she was busy with Clare. Eventually Priscilla would catch up to Teresa in skill and experience, while Teresa's skill as a warrior slowly declines.
Teresa skill probably wouldn't decline even if she don't practice with it. Since Claymore are immortal coupled with regenerative abilities , they wouldn't suffer the effects of aging.

Even if her skill declined, using that is the same as using the "master-student" excuse except this time its using "old man-young man".
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:22   Link #577
Devilz911
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
We've only seen Teresa's softness affect only her character judgement. Her battle assessment and fighting ability remained intact and she was as sharp as ever.
Ilena disagrees with you.

Ilena: "When you met Teresa and started travelling together, her skill as a warrior definitely declined." [Vol. 7 Ch. 38. Pg. 131]
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:33   Link #578
khryoleoz
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Yes, this from someone who got her ass whooped by Teresa.

Anyway, Irene makes a strong point, but she qualifies that the decline of Teresa's "strength", not "skill", as a warrior was due to Clare's presence in Teresa's life. Teresa's heart was softened, thus affecting her toughness. In other words, her character changed, so much that she made the one fatal mistake of sparing the one person who could, would, and does threaten her even after having had so many opportunities.
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:38   Link #579
FateAnomaly
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Originally Posted by Devilz911 View Post
Ilena disagrees with you.

Ilena: "When you met Teresa and started travelling together, her skill as a warrior definitely declined." [Vol. 7 Ch. 38. Pg. 131]
You are reading the text without understanding the meaning. She did not mean physically declined. She meant mentally. Teresa is no longer ruthless and merciless, she became more humane through her contact with Clare.
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:47   Link #580
Devilz911
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You are reading the text without understanding the meaning. She did not mean physically declined. She meant mentally. Teresa is no longer ruthless and merciless, she became more humane through her contact with Clare.
Yup, I agree with that. But I believe she physically declined as well, even if it's very slight. Ilena would know, she used her Quick Sword against Teresa and also saw the battle vs Priscilla.

Either way, I think in the long-run, Teresa's skill would both physically and mentally decline the longer she stays with Clare.
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