AnimeSuki Forums

arias · 2006-08-10, 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrProphet

On the nature of RahXephon's similarity to Eva, read Yutaka Izubuchi's interview with Mamoru Oshii in the RX movie booklet.

That's all I can say on the matter. 8)

I HAVE TO KNOW!!!

kujoe · 2006-08-10, 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by arias

I HAVE TO KNOW!!!

From the booklet, Mamoru Oshii's words:

Quote:

That's true, but in the case of Anno, he was aware of being "a copy of a copy." In other words, that's Anno's stance. The very existence of self-consciousness, you could say it's the position you're standing in when creating something. Other directors aren't even conscious that what they're making are copies.

. . . . In my mind, the greatest achievement of Eva is that it was self-aware of being a copy. That was a huge change, and it was a big turning point. That's why I pay attention to Anno. Not about what he's going to make next but as a situation.

That's the gist of it. Am I the only getting the GITS: SAC vibes from Oshii's words here?

Anyway, I'm actually more curious of what Anno says in RahXephon Complete.

MrProphet · 2006-08-10, 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by kujoe

Am I the only getting the GITS: SAC vibes from Oshii's words here?

I doubt that. Considering the last scene of 2nd Gig could not have been a coincidence, I doubt that it's Oshii's stab at Kamiyama. After all, there are plenty other directors who don't realize that their life's work has a distinct been there, done that feeling.

kujoe · 2006-08-10, 07:48

Yeah, I know. I just found it amusing how it reminds me of GITS all of a sudden, considering that it was a quote from Oshii.

arias · 2006-08-10, 09:13

I read that Oshii directly criticized Pluralitas Concerto for its flaws.. any information on that?

I guess also, the insinuation was that Yutaka Izubuchi was unaware of Rahxephon being a copy? Hm.

kujoe · 2006-08-10, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by arias

I read that Oshii directly criticized Pluralitas Concerto for its flaws.. any information on that?

He did. But like he says so himself, he and Izubuchi have different standards and rules when they do their work. He even called him "naive" (in an ambivalent good way..) but because of these differences, he also can't see himself working with Izubuchi in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arias

I guess also, the insinuation was that Yutaka Izubuchi was unaware of Rahxephon being a copy? Hm.

I'm not sure about this, since it's only Oshii who was talking at this point. Or maybe he was trying to imply that? I don't know.

Oshii is rather harsh in his critique—not to mention, they do have this senpai-kouhai kind of respect for one another—but at the same time he isn't saying that the movie "sucked."

MrProphet · 2006-08-10, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by arias

I guess also, the insinuation was that Yutaka Izubuchi was unaware of Rahxephon being a copy? Hm.

He isn't exactly critisizing, but more like saying... well, I'll just quote the whole of Oshii's monologue that relates to RahXephon and Evangelion

Quote:

Oshii: The other thing I thought of was about copying. Quite aptly, Anno declared himself a copy, saying, "I'm a copy of a copy". But this is "a copy of a copy of a copy". In the future, there will undoubtly be "a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy", and undoubtly, this chain of copies will continue. Animation has also already entered this world, and there no longer are such things as originals.

Izubuchi: But the easy path that you mentioned earlier is a part of a world that has exister sinca a long time ago.

Oshii: That's true, but in the case of Anno, he was aware of being "a copy of a copy". In other words, that's Anno's stance. The very existence of self-consciousness, you could say it's the position you're stayng in when creating something. Other directors aren't even conscious that what they're making are copies.

Of course, I don't mind at all if they are copies. We've been making copies for 100 years, so new stories, new situations, and new scene allocations don't exist. Everthing references other things, and I'm fully aware of that. The issue is if you are doing it intentionally and how conscious you are that what you're making is a copy.

These days, the fact that there is no controversy concerning copying in animation and that there's no awareness of it is a big problem. In my mind, the greatest achievement of EVA is that it is self-aware of being a copy. That was a huge change, and it was a big turning point. That's why I pay attention to Anno. Not about what he's going to make but as a situation.

And that's where RahXephon popped up. From my perspective, I thought, "Oh, this is definitely Butchan" He sure is working as naively as ever," (laughs). I keep saying this, but I'm not saying that in a negative way. Of course, speaking from my position, it's undoubtly an all out denial, but in terms of human nature, that was truly Butchan. And he's "the king of naivety", as it were (laughs).

In that sense, I went home feeling warm somehow (laughs). I need Butchan to keep walking down that path from now on as well. You master that "king of naivety" to the very end.

Izubuchi: You're telling me to consciously master that (laughs) But for this job, I don't really know if it's a copy of not, but I did feel like I wanted to try and see if that route couldn't be followed once more. I suppose that might mean that it's a copy of a route that's perpetuated to this day.

Oshii: No matter what reasons you line up now, ultimately, you're a man who yields to his fetishes. There's a part of me that's like that, too, which is why I've been able to keep up with you, and I really understand that well. Why you just have to see that quad cannon (laughs).

But it's probably going to end with Butchan. There's no doubt that after this, copies that aren't aware of being copies are going to become prevalent. In the end, there isn't much in existence that possesses the full weight of fantasy.

xekuhz · 2006-09-23, 01:26

okok i know a lot of people already asked the question and i have read the replys but im a bit retarded and i still don't really get the ending TTOTT im sorry

umm yea there are spoilers from this point on
so mishima reika is Ixtli and she says that her form is what he secretly desires
so quan Ixtli at first looks like reika but then she turns into ayato
so does that mean that reika is in the form of haruka when she was younger?
and in the last scene with the girl playing piano with long hair it is haruka right when they were in high school?
and you guys says that he created a new world and made a life of him a haruka together, because he put that memory into haruka???? TTOTT as you can see im so dumbly confused. so if someone can please help me i'd really appreciate it.

kujoe · 2006-09-23, 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by xekuhz

okok i know a lot of people already asked the question and i have read the replys but im a bit retarded and i still don't really get the ending TTOTT im sorry

umm yea there are spoilers from this point on
so mishima reika is Ixtli and she says that her form is what he secretly desires
so quan Ixtli at first looks like reika but then she turns into ayato
so does that mean that reika is in the form of haruka when she was younger?
and in the last scene with the girl playing piano with long hair it is haruka right when they were in high school?
and you guys says that he created a new world and made a life of him a haruka together, because he put that memory into haruka???? TTOTT as you can see im so dumbly confused. so if someone can please help me i'd really appreciate it.

Man, it's been so long... I'll try to answer through rough memory.

Spoiler:

--so mishima reika is Ixtli and she says that her form is what he secretly desires
so quan Ixtli at first looks like reika but then she turns into ayato
so does that mean that reika is in the form of haruka when she was younger?
Yes.

--so quan Ixtli at first looks like reika but then she turns into ayato
Yes, because Ayato is actually her son.

--and in the last scene with the girl playing piano with long hair it is haruka right when they were in high school?
Yes. Also, remember his painting? He actually painted Haruka, not Reika.

--and you guys says that he created a new world and made a life of him a haruka together, because he put that memory into haruka????
The series and the movie have actually different endings.

In the anime series, Ayato re-tunes the world so to speak, where the world of the Mu and the human world became practically one, and as if he and Haruka were never separated in the first place. However, some retconning takes place. Quon is now his daughter, not his mother. And his friends, Hiroko and Mamoru are no longer Mu but humans in the new world. Thus, I assume (read: personal speculation) that Maya is his true mother now along with Itsuki as his twin brother. Basically, it's what the world of RahXephon would be like if it wasn't complicated.

It does make me wonder though how Isshiki, Itsuki and Sayoko are doing, considering how their relationship played out in the series. Of course, this is assuming that they exist in the re-tuned world as they more or less were like in the old world, but I personally believe that they're also alive and well. Isshiki wouldn't be so messed up, finally finding a place for himself. And perhaps Itsuki and Sayoko are finally seeing each other face to face. Well, before he dies in the old world, Itsuki sort of hints that (maybe) he would've given he and Sayoko a chance if he could do things all over again. So yes, I hope life is better for them now personally.

Interestingly, as one of his paintings imply, Ayato still has memories of the old world.

The movie on the other hand, has its differences from the series. For example, Itsuki isn't Ayato's brother at all and actually desires Quon as a lover, and not as a son who desires the attention of his mother. The familial relationships are simplified in the movie, and the ending is also different from the series.

Here, I found an informative site for you. Happy reading.

MrProphet · 2006-09-23, 06:09

As far as I remember about Quon...

Spoiler:

BTW, here's a great timeline of the events that partly explains many mysteries and backstories:http://www.khantazi.org/Rec/Anime/MuTimeline.html

kujoe · 2006-09-23, 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrProphet

As far as I remember about Quon...

Spoiler:

I figured that...

Spoiler:

MrProphet · 2006-09-23, 07:52

The question is what does "artificial means" mean?

Even if they were concieved in vitro, they'd have to have been carried to term by someone.

It's not like Rikudoh or Shiroh had artificial wombs stashed somewhere.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2006-09-23, 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kujoe

I figured that...

Spoiler:

Actually, it was specifically stated in the show's scripts that Maya didn't give birth to Ayato. But as Maya said, "I would if only I could". Very likely, Maya once considered the possibility of carrying Ayato in her own womb. But it appears not to be achievable.

kujoe · 2006-09-23, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrProphet

The question is what does "artificial means" mean?

Even if they were concieved in vitro, they'd have to have been carried to term by someone.

It's not like Rikudoh or Shiroh had artificial wombs stashed somewhere.

Well, considering that Itsuki, Helena and Isshiki were raised in a very controlled environment during their early years along with the others, (clones?) I suppose the clues would lie there. With the knowledge they possess, I guess "anything" is possible from a technological perspective. Really, I have no idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Actually, it was specifically stated in the show's scripts that Maya didn't give birth to Ayato. But as Maya said, "I would if only I could". Very likely, Maya once considered the possibility of carrying Ayato in her own womb. But it appears not to be achievable.

So I'm wondering how were they born then, if it isn't achievable through her. Or are you saying that it isn't achievable at all?

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2006-09-23, 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kujoe

So I'm wondering how were they born then, if it isn't achievable through her. Or are you saying that it isn't achievable at all?

Well... I don't know enough to be able to answer that. All we know, is that Ayato and his brother were both born as potential future tuners of the world, with only Ayato being chosen. Maya was involved in Ayato's creation, and does have maternal feelings towards him. All we know, is that despite her desire for the contrary, Ayato was not raised in Maya's womb.

My best guess, is that a tuner of the world required so much tweaking technologically/genetically, that they can't let Ayato mature in Maya's womb for 9 months and mess up his growth. This is only a guess, however. There is plenty of evidence that artificial wombs had likely been developed behind the scenes, as otherwise the large numbers of clone pilots would not be practical.

LonelyMachines · 2006-10-02, 19:09

I noticed something odd that I've not seen explained anywhere. When Ayato and Quon are flying into Tokyo Jupiter, Quon sees the Vermillion and says, "I hate that thing."

It's odd, because she rarely talks in the first person, and she seems unusually emphatic about it. I assume there's some subtext I'm missing. I know the Vermillions were "mass-produced" Dolems using Mr. Peroxide-Hair as the template pilot, but Quon didn't seem to mind the big Dolem that showed up to greet them.

So, why the disgust with the Vermillion (which wasn't even piloted by a D)?

the.Merines · 2006-10-02, 22:10

Spoiler:

kauldron26 · 2006-10-08, 20:15

Rahxephon is first and foremost an absolutely incredible love story. Arguably the greatest love story in all of anime. What would you do if you lost the love of your life at 15. How much would it change your life? would you be able to move on? This is what Rahxephon is about... forget about the stupid inevitable comparisons with Evangelion, because Evangelion does not come close to the greatness of this anime.

The animation, im my own humble opinion is perfect. Not one single flaw nor weak episode. Some scenes surpass greatness thanks to the directors incredible eye. The colors and designs hit you like an anvil full of beauty and emotion. Every line and curve serve a greater purpose in the telling of this story.

The sound is truly phenomenal. The theme of the anime itself is sound, and how sound cand be used and derived from different forms. Sound can be used to create, destroy and express. In RahXephon, BONES takes imagination and knowledge to a whole new level when they incorporate the concept of sound and how it pertains to the story.

The story is by far the greatest part of this anime. What is love? can love die? Does love ever go away? can you fall out of love with someone u truly love? what is family? can we relate to concepts and people we do not understand? These are the questions that Rahxephon raises.

The characters in this anime stayed with me for days and days after watching this masterpiece. Ayato and Haruka's love transcend time and space. Even heaven and hell could not stop their love. There is not a single weak or annoying character in this show and every character is fleshed out and serves a purpose.

The value of this anime is tremendous. I have seent this 3 times and it only gets better and better, because u learn and discover more depth. There are so many reasons why this anime is a masterpiece that its impossible to list them all. Rahxephon is not just a show, its an experience that grabs you and never lets you go. Take a ride to Tokyo-Jupiter, and u will never be the same.

yellowkaiq · 2006-10-08, 22:12

yo man, i feel you. At first, when i watched Rahxephon, i thought it was just an eva ripoff and incredibly childish. But after contemplating on its themes, I realized that it has tremendous values and subtleties. It is an incredible love story, and I loved it.

Yolteotl · 2007-06-02, 16:38

first off, i would like to thank all of you. RahXephon is and always will be the best thing that ever happened to anime. for your support of it, i shall send you happiness vibes.*vibe sending....done!*

also, does anyone else have the rahxephon manga? i only have vol. 3 but ive read all of it.

personally i prefer it to the anime, but that may be because of my manga preference over anime.

and to those of you wondering about its symbolism, all i can say is that the human mind may not even be able to comprehend all of its meanings. i can only state that
without balance, harmony and music, existence is only made for hate, violence, and mistrust. love is the greatest power in all of the universe.

in actuality, that statement does not even begin to describe the feelings and meanings rahxephon inspired in my soul.

I hope you can understand.

2006-09-23, 06:09	Link #90
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	As far as I remember about Quon... Spoiler: Quon is not strictly Ayato's and Itsuki's mother. Maya did use Quon's genetic material to create them, but I've always assumed that Maya gave the actual birth to them. Since Quon was in coma at the time, I don't see how she could have done it herself. BTW, here's a great timeline of the events that partly explains many mysteries and backstories:http://www.khantazi.org/Rec/Anime/MuTimeline.html

2006-10-02, 22:10	Link #97
the.Merines Seeker of Power Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: ΔHidden Forbidden Holy Ground Age: 39	Spoiler: Maybe because, Quon being a Mu, she would hate the bastardized versions of Dolem, which are Mu from another dimension... Or something like that? I haven't watched the series in a while. __________________ I am bound to pay the debt I owe.

2006-10-08, 22:12	Link #99
yellowkaiq ~Chrno + Rosette~ Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Somewhere in the USA	yo man, i feel you. At first, when i watched Rahxephon, i thought it was just an eva ripoff and incredibly childish. But after contemplating on its themes, I realized that it has tremendous values and subtleties. It is an incredible love story, and I loved it. __________________ Youtube.com/timelesstroll - Check me out!

2007-06-02, 16:38	Link #100
Yolteotl The Observer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: R'lyeh	yep. first off, i would like to thank all of you. RahXephon is and always will be the best thing that ever happened to anime. for your support of it, i shall send you happiness vibes.vibe sending....done! also, does anyone else have the rahxephon manga? i only have vol. 3 but ive read all of it. personally i prefer it to the anime, but that may be because of my manga preference over anime. and to those of you wondering about its symbolism, all i can say is that the human mind may not even be able to comprehend all of its meanings. i can only state that without balance, harmony and music, existence is only made for hate, violence, and mistrust. love is the greatest power in all of the universe. in actuality, that statement does not even begin to describe the feelings and meanings rahxephon inspired in my soul. I hope you can understand.

2006-08-10, 07:48	Link #84
kujoe from head to heel Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Age: 42	Yeah, I know. I just found it amusing how it reminds me of GITS all of a sudden, considering that it was a quote from Oshii.

2006-08-10, 09:13	Link #85
arias Senior Member Join Date: May 2004	I read that Oshii directly criticized Pluralitas Concerto for its flaws.. any information on that? I guess also, the insinuation was that Yutaka Izubuchi was unaware of Rahxephon being a copy? Hm.

2006-09-23, 01:26	Link #88
xekuhz Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2006	okok i know a lot of people already asked the question and i have read the replys but im a bit retarded and i still don't really get the ending TTOTT im sorry umm yea there are spoilers from this point on so mishima reika is Ixtli and she says that her form is what he secretly desires so quan Ixtli at first looks like reika but then she turns into ayato so does that mean that reika is in the form of haruka when she was younger? and in the last scene with the girl playing piano with long hair it is haruka right when they were in high school? and you guys says that he created a new world and made a life of him a haruka together, because he put that memory into haruka???? TTOTT as you can see im so dumbly confused. so if someone can please help me i'd really appreciate it.

2006-09-23, 07:52	Link #92
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	The question is what does "artificial means" mean? Even if they were concieved in vitro, they'd have to have been carried to term by someone. It's not like Rikudoh or Shiroh had artificial wombs stashed somewhere.

2006-10-02, 19:09	Link #96
LonelyMachines Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2006	I noticed something odd that I've not seen explained anywhere. When Ayato and Quon are flying into Tokyo Jupiter, Quon sees the Vermillion and says, "I hate that thing." It's odd, because she rarely talks in the first person, and she seems unusually emphatic about it. I assume there's some subtext I'm missing. I know the Vermillions were "mass-produced" Dolems using Mr. Peroxide-Hair as the template pilot, but Quon didn't seem to mind the big Dolem that showed up to greet them. So, why the disgust with the Vermillion (which wasn't even piloted by a D)?

2006-10-08, 20:15	Link #98
kauldron26 Med Student Join Date: Jul 2006 Age: 40	Rahxephon is first and foremost an absolutely incredible love story. Arguably the greatest love story in all of anime. What would you do if you lost the love of your life at 15. How much would it change your life? would you be able to move on? This is what Rahxephon is about... forget about the stupid inevitable comparisons with Evangelion, because Evangelion does not come close to the greatness of this anime. The animation, im my own humble opinion is perfect. Not one single flaw nor weak episode. Some scenes surpass greatness thanks to the directors incredible eye. The colors and designs hit you like an anvil full of beauty and emotion. Every line and curve serve a greater purpose in the telling of this story. The sound is truly phenomenal. The theme of the anime itself is sound, and how sound cand be used and derived from different forms. Sound can be used to create, destroy and express. In RahXephon, BONES takes imagination and knowledge to a whole new level when they incorporate the concept of sound and how it pertains to the story. The story is by far the greatest part of this anime. What is love? can love die? Does love ever go away? can you fall out of love with someone u truly love? what is family? can we relate to concepts and people we do not understand? These are the questions that Rahxephon raises. The characters in this anime stayed with me for days and days after watching this masterpiece. Ayato and Haruka's love transcend time and space. Even heaven and hell could not stop their love. There is not a single weak or annoying character in this show and every character is fleshed out and serves a purpose. The value of this anime is tremendous. I have seent this 3 times and it only gets better and better, because u learn and discover more depth. There are so many reasons why this anime is a masterpiece that its impossible to list them all. Rahxephon is not just a show, its an experience that grabs you and never lets you go. Take a ride to Tokyo-Jupiter, and u will never be the same.