Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[xizro345]

Originally Posted by Arkanis

Something like that happened with Haruhi in Germany. In the end, there were people who liked the dub and people who disliked it. Business as usual. What we need aren't polls like this but competent people in charge of the dub who have at least some idea of what the product they are working on is about. This shouldn't imply that this isn't the case, but there must be a cause why dubs are often (or even most of the time) inferior to the original japanese dub.

Well, personally I disagreed with the choice in particular. Luckily out of all the main cast that has been revealed so far (only Madoka missing) most of the choices actually make sense. Though there's need of a more strict dubbing supervision, IMO. The same company localized Toradora! this year, and while the cast was pretty high-profile regarding the VAs, the poor dub direction was quite visible.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

The whole idea that Madoka is something sacred that would be ruined by a sequel is just kind of ridiculous to me. I'm not sure how this enjoyable, entertaining and well casted dark magical girl tale become such serious business in less than a year that it's now sacrosanct and a sequel would somehow ruin it.

Here's the thing: Gen likes doing grimdark tales. We all know this. Madoka Magica, however, ended on a largely hopeful and optimistic note, as Sol Falling described well and in detail. Madoka Magica's largely hopeful and inspirational ending is a big part of the reason for some Madoka Magica fans liking it.

If Madoka Magica gets an in-canon direct sequel, there's huge potential that it'll destroy much of what this particular subset of the Madoka Magica fandom, including myself, like about it.

For one thing, it will almost certainly make "Madoka world" seem much darker, as Gen himself tells dark tales. This in turn will cast Madoka's ending sacrifice in a much darker light, which could drastically hurt how people perceive her character and the value thereof (as well as hurt how people perceive the final episode of Madoka Magica's first season).

Now, let's suppose Gen actually doesn't do this, but goes against his predominant style by casting "Madoka world" in a brighter light. Well, that will go a long way to reinforcing the idea that Madoka's sacrifice is inspirational, and worth it. It'll also mean though, that Madoka Magica's sequel would be much closer to conventional magical girl anime, and that would greatly disappoint some Madoka Magica fans as well.

Do you now see the Catch-22 here? Do you see how it would be very tricky for Gen to craft a sequel that pleases all or almost all Madoka Magica fans?


Madoka Magica managed to hit a very nice sweet spot. For conventional magical girl fans like myself, the ending is much of the reason why we like it. If Madoka Magica had a very grimdark ending, I would not have liked this anime anywhere near as much as I currently do. On the flip side, Madoka Magica was still, on the whole, dark enough and deconstruction-y enough to please those who wanted to see magical girl anime go in a much darker and bolder direction. So it managed to please conventional magical girl anime fans, and magical girl anime critics alike. Not bad, not bad at all.

A direct in-canon sequel achieving the same, though, will be very tricky business, for the reasons I've hinted at above.

Oh and by the way, IMO making it a "slice of life" sequel would sidestep every single thing that made the show interesting in the first place.

So the characters themselves never appealed to you in the least?

That's frankly a TERRIBLE idea for a sequel to a darker magical girl show like Madoka and if that would be where they are going then they might as well make it a whole new property altogether cause it sure as hell wouldn't have anything in common with it's namesake.

For a direct in-canon sequel, of course it wouldn't work. I'm talking about an AU spinoff.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I agree that a slice of life would be a poor use of Madoka's impact/popularity.

I don't. I think it would be a good way of reaching out to an even wider audience, and making more use out of the excellent potential of the PMMM characters.

I think the Madoka franchise would at the least require another iteration with just as much coldness and severity before they could gain the freedom to make any sort of genuinely relaxed/lighter/fluffy associated work.

Why?

Originally Posted by Solace

I'm not totally against a sequel but I'm really not sure how they could do it. Gen writing it means the story will still be grimdark, which is fine, but then you have the hopeful note the series ended on, which is the problem.

Precisely.

If the story continues from that ending, what could he do with the sequel? Unless he changes the narrative, we know that Sayaka is "dead", Mami, Kyouko, and Homura will eventually follow suit, and Madoka is trapped as a omniscient being for all time. I'm not really sure what kind of story is left to tell.

On the other hand he could do a new story set in the same universe, like Kazumi, or an alternate timeline like Oriko. But then it's not really a sequel, and that's not a bad thing....but no matter how you spin it Madoka is going to be a tough act to follow.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Tempester

If a sequel/prequel/spinoff for Madoka is good, then we can consider it a worthy side project and maybe even a great anime by itself. And if it's terrible, we can simply write it off as a money-milking scheme and forget about it.

No, it doesn't work that way. Not with direct in-canon sequels. Like it or not, but The Matrix Trilogy is a whole story, a complete narrative. It did change how people perceived the first part of the trilogy, which at one time was a stand alone narrative, of course.

Likewise, if Madoka Magica has a direct in-canon sequel, it will effect how people view the original and its characters. It has to, as character actions (in the original) will now lead to further effects, and characters will be further developed (which in turn can retroactively impact how we viewed them in the original).

Again, if Madoka Magica's sequel is just as grimdark as the original (or even more grimdark than the original) than what does that logically say about Madoka's sacrifice in Episode 12? Wouldn't it make it seem pointless, and foolish?

Edit: In fairness, there is at least one way around this. And that's by bringing in a new, grim threat, that would have been there regardless of Madoka's sacrifice or lack thereof. A true villain, in all likelihood. But I have my doubts that this is Gen's style.

Although admittedly I'd most likely watch a slice-of-life spinoff just because I'm already so attached to the characters and themes. I feel sinful.

Why the heck is this "sinful"?

What exactly is wrong with liking a show's characters, and wanting to see them happy for a change?

How about they start by making a story out of the original anime's misleading OP? It looks colorful and dramatic enough, especially with the scene of Madoka crying while holding a black cat.

Now that's an interesting idea, and I myself would probably enjoy it.

But it would likely come off like the Rebuild of EVA movies, with all the pros and cons that this entails.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

For one thing, it will almost certainly make "Madoka world" seem much darker, as Gen himself tells dark tales. This in turn will cast Madoka's ending sacrifice in a much darker light, which could drastically hurt how people perceive her character and the value thereof (as well as hurt how people perceive the final episode of Madoka Magica's first season).

The thing is Gen doesn't give a fuck about how people perceive Madoka's ending. The reason the ending came out the way it did was something very personal to his writing process. The preface to Fate/Zero clarely states why he needed to write a story like Madoka at the time.

Frankly, thematically speaking Gen's a one trick pony. His central theme is always the same: karma. Whether is Phantom, Madoka, or Saya no Uta, the core of it is always the same. His talent lays in his ability to write about the same thing in so many different ways. Considering that, I think you'll see more Madoka is he finds a new way to revisit the themes Madoka dealt with. Whether it'll be a sequel or spin-off or whatever is probably no concern for him at all.

EDIT: I watched your video btw. I liked it. Will write a PM about it when I have a bit more time.

[mols]

I wouldn't mind a sequel. And frankly, I thought the ending was dark enough to allow a dark sequel where we can see how things changed.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't. I think it would be a good way of reaching out to an even wider audience, and making more use out of the excellent potential of the PMMM characters.

Why?

Considering the scale of the audience that Madoka Magica has reached already, I think the franchise would be weakened if the follow up to the first season were to be a slice of life. Madoka's mainstream credibility lies in how it managed to communicate the hope and empathy at the core of mahou shoujo stories in a context/narrative which is unquestionably adult in its consequences. A slice of life story would, while undoubtedly being pleasant and making good use of Madoka's characters, have none of that thematic consequence/urgency which managed to make this series relevant to general/non-anime enthusiast viewers.

Particularly regarding what I mentioned about there being no point in Gen being involved in a non-dramatic follow-up to Madoka: I think that, minus Gen, there would not be all that much to differentiate a slice of life Madoka from Hidamari Sketch. As such, even though I believe that Aoki Ume's worldview as generally expressed in her works was very much an element in the formulation of Madoka, I think gravitating too quickly in that direction would greatly dilute Madoka's own identity. That's why I think it would be important to first reinforce Madoka's identity as a collaboration/joining of SHAFT/Ume and Urobochi's writing style before the franchise could safely be allowed to fall back into SHAFT's comfort zone.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The thing is Gen doesn't give a fuck about how people perceive Madoka's ending. The reason the ending came out the way it did was something very personal to his writing process. The preface to Fate/Zero clarely states why he needed to write a story like Madoka at the time.

Not quite. While Madoka is unquestionably Urobochi's, I think there was also an element of Gen being influenced by the fact that it was a collaboration and him responding to a perceived role for his involvement in the project. The creation of Madoka was probably a new and enlightening writing experience for Urobochi himself, but I don't think he would've produced such a story by himself if he had not been provided this sort of context (i.e. a collaboration, and a magical girl story) to inspire it.

Frankly, thematically speaking Gen's a one trick pony. His central theme is always the same: karma. Whether is Phantom, Madoka, or Saya no Uta, the core of it is always the same. His talent lays in his ability to write about the same thing in so many different ways. Considering that, I think you'll see more Madoka is he finds a new way to revisit the themes Madoka dealt with. Whether it'll be a sequel or spin-off or whatever is probably no concern for him at all.

A number of his interviews actually indicate that Fate/Zero and Madoka are the start/mark of a major shift in Urobochi's writing style. Fundamentally, Gen's issue was probably his inability to believe in naive/romantic notions of human happiness or the goodness of the world. Pre-Fate/Zero, Gen had been expressing this through endings where the protagonist's personal/subjective happiness was achieved through ignoring/abandoning the good of the world on a macro level. Post-Fate/Zero and Madoka, Gen seems to have reached a conclusion instead where the good of the world must be maintained by the suffering/sacrifice of the protagonist. But in this regard I still think Madoka is something of an unusual work for him, because the uplifting aspects of Madoka's conclusion probably come precisely from the fact that Madoka is not an "Urobochi protagonist". As such, I think we can actually expect a somewhat different Madoka sequel (if it actually happens) than what we got this time, if only because it will be a "new Urobochi" work that will completely feature the new type of "Urobochi protagonist".

I more or less agree that there'll be no reason for Gen to hold back in terms of making new iterations into sequels or into spinoffs, though. I think it would be a mistake to continue applying the label "grimdark" to Urobochi's work in the same way as it was used previously. Urobochi should be perfectly capable of coming up with some new idea which is congruent with Madoka's hopeful message and yet has its own, Urobochi-like identity. We'll just have to wait to see if it really happens.


lol, looking at what I've written above, it seems like what I'm saying is that continuations of Madoka should probably come in the form of an "Urobochi sequel" and an "Aoki sequel". But since Madoka marks a fairly significant departure from Urobochi's former/previous style, I think it'd be important for the "Urobochi sequel" to come first so that people can get a clearer picture of how the first Madoka fits into Gen's writing as a whole.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Not quite. While Madoka is unquestionably Urobochi's, I think there was also an element of Gen being influenced by the fact that it was a collaboration and him responding to a perceived role for his involvement in the project. The creation of Madoka was probably a new and enlightening writing experience for Urobochi himself, but I don't think he would've produced such a story by himself if he had not been provided this sort of context (i.e. a collaboration, and a magical girl story) to inspire it.

I wasn't talking about the genre. It was a magical girl show because that was what the producer wanted Gen to write, and of course Shinbo had his input too. I wasn't denying that, and it wasn't even the point. (read below).

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

A number of his interviews actually indicate that Fate/Zero and Madoka are the start/mark of a major shift in Urobochi's writing style. Fundamentally, Gen's issue was probably his inability to believe in naive/romantic notions of human happiness or the goodness of the world. Pre-Fate/Zero, Gen had been expressing this through endings where the protagonist's personal/subjective happiness was achieved through ignoring/abandoning the good of the world on a macro level. Post-Fate/Zero and Madoka, Gen seems to have reached a conclusion instead where the good of the world must be maintained by the suffering/sacrifice of the protagonist.

Exactly! This is what I was talking about. Gen got to the point when he needed to write a story about a different kind of hero than his usual. In fact, Madoka (the series) is about the confrontation between these two conception of the hero: we have Homura, who is the kind of hero that would abandon the world for his personal goal; and Madoka, who put the general well being of the world above everything else. Madoka's way prevails in the end because that was the sort of story Gen wanted to write at the moment. It has nothing to do with expectations of the audience or what the producer wanted to do.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

But in this regard I still think Madoka is something of an unusual work for him, because the uplifting aspects of Madoka's conclusion probably come precisely from the fact that Madoka is not an "Urobochi protagonist". As such, I think we can actually expect a somewhat different Madoka sequel (if it actually happens) than what we got this time, if only because it will be a "new Urobochi" work that will completely feature the new type of "Urobochi protagonist".

Well, the thing is that even after Fate/Zero and Madoka, Gen still doesn't have much faith in humanity IMO. That's why he needed a character with a "heavenly soul", as he put it, for this sort of story to work in his mind. To put it simple, Madoka (the character) is already special from the get-go, emotionally speaking, and that sets her apart from what Urobuchi perceives as "human". The other magical girls, and particularly Homura, who let their hopes run wild, represent Urobuchi's view on humanity, particularly its inability to change their ways, to restrain their hopes. Madoka can resolve the conflict because she was already something more than human to begin with, she was that "heavenly soul" Gen had talked about.

So, unless Gen begins to have a little more faith in humanity, he needs a character like Madoka for this sort of story to work. Personally though, I think it would be more interesting to have a protagonist that begins the story as a "Homura-like hero" but grows and changes during the course of the show to become a "Madoka-like hero" by the end. But writing such a character definitely requires more faith in humanity than Gen can manage, since he doesn't even believe such change is possible.

[bhl88]

"Puella Magi Kyoko/Mami Magica" should come... (Drama CD 3)

[Arkanis]

Madoka Magica is now licenced in Germany, too. I just hope there will be a BD release and not only a DVD one.

[zato_1one]

For those who didn't know, today is Madoka's birthday. I actually just knew a moment ago.

Second question
http://wiki.puella-magi.net/100_Questions

Edit: Oh, it was already posted in character thread.

[zato_1one]

Newtype Best anime awards: Newtype x Machi ★ Asobi!

http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-new...newtype-awards
http://ani.me/zine/home/article/1674/

[wavehawk]

I don't see why people are against a slice of life sequel. It'll basically be an alternate world version of Madoka.

It's been done before with varying success, so let's just let it be and see what happens. Obviously it'll not be the same as the Madoka series we know and love, but it's probably meant to appeal to a different audience anyway.

[Marcus H.]

I just realized when I read about Kazumi Magica, there appears to be a possibility that a Puella Magi can use another person's Soul Gem to transform. I wonder what happened if Madoka kept Sayaka's soul gem for herself or if someone else used the Soul Gem.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by wavehawk

I don't see why people are against a slice of life sequel. It'll basically be an alternate world version of Madoka.

It's been done before with varying success, so let's just let it be and see what happens. Obviously it'll not be the same as the Madoka series we know and love, but it's probably meant to appeal to a different audience anyway.

Source please, thanks. Sounds good.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Newtype Best anime awards: Newtype x Machi ★ Asobi!

http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-new...newtype-awards
http://ani.me/zine/home/article/1674/

That was one helluva sweep.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I just realized when I read about Kazumi Magica, there appears to be a possibility that a Puella Magi can use another person's Soul Gem to transform. I wonder what happened if Madoka kept Sayaka's soul gem for herself or if someone else used the Soul Gem.

However, the tradeoff seems to be that the proper owner of the Soul Gem possesses your body, and you need to already be contracted yourself.

Infact, the only case we have of someone using someone else's soul gem is a pair of people who are implied to be TWINS, or atleast sisters. Maybe they were able to loophole the system because both soul gems are assigned to the same DNA?

[Marcus H.]

Probably. And besides, no one wants to have their bodies hijacked by a soul-in-a-bauble.

[AuraTwilight]

I just think that the Soujous sharing a body is most likely a result of their wish. Something like they were twin sisters, one of them was dying, and they wished to always be together or something.

As for this whole Freezer thing, I'm getting the idea that Jyubey is rebelling against his masters. Which is either a good thing, or an AWFUL thing...

He seems to have emotions, meaning he's mentally ill if so.

[bhl88]

T-6660000010 (Jyuu), self destruct immediately.

[RRW]

posted?

Spoiler for Kamen rider VS madoka:

not saying madoka is ripoff but i found this interesting

[AuraTwilight]

That's tropes for you. Pretty much every story ever written is a variation of the same proto-story.