Sword Art Online - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

You can't stand the type of romance that is built upon people supporting each other? How does this equal 'immature infatuation'?

Um, well, to me it isn't that type of romance. It's one that started out well and then turned sappy, artificial and even somewhat creepy with how much everything only revolved around the other. Hell, Kirito turned from a cool, friendly guy into a whiny, emotionally dependent guy who cries, while not for his mommy, for his girlfriend all the time. Asuna turned from a really cool, strong, fun to watch character into a blob of sap whose goal in life is to cling to her boyfriend. Blech. When teenagers decide to get "married" and call some kid they found their "daughter" and play house in the woods, that's immature, cheesy and those parts were borderline unwatchable for me.

But, I am NOT a fan of romance anime. I do not watch anything that has romance as a main plot, as it just does not appeal to me. And SAO didn't present itself as a romance-centric show initially, otherwise I never would've watched it.
If there has to be romance in that kind of show, it should be subtle without a need to rely on constant childish, physical displays of affection and verbal confirmation of how in love they are.
I cannot stand when romance becomes the central plot of a story that originally revolved around something else.
If romance is your genre, and you like fluffly, cute couples and their antics, then good for you. Then of course you'd enjoy this.
I just personally don't. I preferred the way they were set up at the beginning of their romance... that was nice. But then it turned lame. So I guess it comes down to what you like and don't like seeing, and we can agree to disagree on this.

It didn't "kill" their individuality. It made them much more mature and stronger than they were.

No. That it didn't. Or is a crying, obsessed person who can't think of anything else than one person suddenly mature and strong now?
The reason they became whiny wasn't being trapped in SAO. They only became whiny AFTER starting a relationship. Before, they were very much fine.
And yeah, I WAS giving them a break, hence why I accepted that a lot of this might be down to circumstance and might look different in following arcs.

It's not teen angst. When Kirito and Asuna are together, they're unstoppable; a real power team. They're very happy just being with each other. They don't CONSTANTLY argue or make each other miserable. When they are torn apart, they still have firm belief in each other and don't lose hope.
It's a very GOOD, HEALTHY relationship. Believable from characters their age? Probably not. But this is fiction.

Really? What we've seen recently is that when they are together, or apart, the only thing they do is obsess over each other to the point of not being able to see what's going on around them. They don't argue at all anymore, which is funny because it was clearly shown that they DID in fact have disagreements before getting together and thus were much more realistic. You will find that real, stable and HEALTHY couples argue.
I fail to see how any of that is "good and healthy"; it's the exact opposite.

That's your opinion. Don't state it like a fact. I didn't consider it deus ex machina in the least. In fact, I thought it made sense. It was so freaking simple (using Kayaba's account)....yet nobody thought of it. I loved that.

Well, and so is everything you've said, yet you called me plain out wrong. It's much harder to deny that the author wrote himself into a corner with the ALO arc, and his way out was.. admin powers. If this is the case, there was no need to pretend like solving this was dependent on playing the game. Might as well have called the police in that case. Equally simple and effective.
But unlike many, I can accept this solution. I didn't love it, but I could buy it. What is utterly ridiculous and unacceptable is Sugou's over the top evil villain portrayal which many have pointed out. he villain turned out to be some pathetic, weak clown with nothing to his name that makes him even remotely interesting. Letdown.
It's not that I mind idiots getting their comeuppance, I don't like idiots being made idiots for the sake of being idiots xD (e.g. with the sole intention of making the audience dislike them)

tl;dr: I loved them in the beginning, now they're cheesy and I don't appreciate it. The entire ALO arc was godawful. :/

shishakabobed

Shishkebab. Not shisha (a waterpipe) kabob (??? what?). Sorry, I don't know why, but that bothered me

[Oroboro]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Really? What we've seen recently is that when they are together, or apart, the only thing they do is obsess over each other to the point of not being able to see what's going on around them. They don't argue at all anymore, which is funny because it was clearly shown that they DID in fact have disagreements before getting together and thus were much more realistic. You will find that real, stable and HEALTHY couples argue.
I fail to see how any of that is "good and healthy"; it's the exact opposite.

Although your preferences towards romance are totally okay, I just wanted to point out here. Namely that, Asuna and Kirito are both teenagers in their "First Love" stage, and the time we've seen them in a relationship amounts to about 3 weeks. The over affection and love they show each other seems rather realistic to me, since they're in their "honeymoon period", and the narrative simply hasn't given them a break where they can step back to a real, stable relationship yet.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

No. That it didn't. Or is a crying, obsessed person who can't think of anything else than one person suddenly mature and strong now?
The reason they became whiny wasn't being trapped in SAO. They only became whiny AFTER starting a relationship. Before, they were very much fine.

I totally respect that romance is not your preference and that you don't enjoy this sort of content. But I just want to point out that what we seemed to see of them on the outside and what was actually going on inside are a bit different here.

Kirito was a person who looked strong and stoic, and wanted to believe that he had the power to save people, but he struggled time and again with the realization of just how powerless he really is, starting all the way back with the way he abandoned Kline and blames himself for Sachi's death. This was actually a recurring theme of his character development throughout the whole work (even in this recent episode) that I honestly wish had been emphasized even more throughout the story. He may have looked strong, but he's actually incredibly fragile. It's only in front of Asuna (and a little bit with Suguha) that he can let that side of him out.

Asuna, meanwhile, was a person who took on a huge burden of responsibility and was so obsessed with clearing the game and getting her life back that she could easily have had a total breakdown (and she basically did). Even in the little time she allowed herself to sleep, she barely could do so being plagued with nightmares. She did everything in her power to stay focused and look strong -- and that's the Asuna we saw. But it wasn't until she began to fall in love with Kirito that she was able find some perspective, put an end to the nightmares, and start taking care of herself a bit more. Asuna has a huge strength of will, and that's really what drove her to push herself so hard, but all this takes a toll on a person, and it's only with Kirito/Kazuto that she could bring her life into balance.

So the bottom line for both of them is that they weren't "very much fine" before their relationship. They looked fine, but they were isolated and carrying huge burdens with no one to confide in or to rely on for emotional support. So that's why, when you see the two of them together, they tend to be almost the polar opposites of their regular selves in some ways. Every person has both strength and weakness, maturity and immaturity, fighting for some sort of balance. It's the times when they're with each other that they can not be afraid to let their "other sides" come out. And that's why, the show is arguing, that they're much better together than apart. By finding this balance, they'll be able to face even greater challenges together.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

Really? What we've seen recently is that when they are together, or apart, the only thing they do is obsess over each other to the point of not being able to see what's going on around them. They don't argue at all anymore, which is funny because it was clearly shown that they DID in fact have disagreements before getting together and thus were much more realistic. You will find that real, stable and HEALTHY couples argue.
I fail to see how any of that is "good and healthy"; it's the exact opposite.

Umm, they argued over the frog legs back in the second episode with Yui. They argued about Asuna going to the floor 75 boss fight(well technically). Asuna disagreed with Kirito's decision to accept the final duel with Heathcliff though Kirito didn't take the time to argue with her and she wasn't in a position to press her argument. There was also that bit back when they first got married where Kirito questioned Asuna as to whether their relationship would extending into the real world and Asuna was offended.

In short, they do have points of disagreement, and misunderstanding after they get married. They just seldom result in a argument like the frog legs thing did that we've seen. And since the duel with Kayaba, they haven't had cause or chance to argue. Or did you expect them to argue when they both figured they were dead and doomed to die with Aincrad, or argue when Kirito finally reached Asuna in ALO, or argue after he defeated Sugou?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I totally respect that romance is not your preference and that you don't enjoy this sort of content. But I just want to point out that what we seemed to see of them on the outside and what was actually going on inside are a bit different here.

Kirito was a person who looked strong and stoic, and wanted to believe that he had the power to save people, but he struggled time and again with the realization of just how powerless he really is, starting all the way back with the way he abandoned Kline and blames himself for Sachi's death. This was actually a recurring theme of his character development throughout the whole work (even in this recent episode) that I honestly wish had been emphasized even more throughout the story. He may have looked strong, but he's actually incredibly fragile. It's only in front of Asuna (and a little bit with Suguha) that he can let that side of him out.

Indeed. And it was worse after he got out of SAO. Because for a while in there, he really believed he was a strong hero. He'd lived by the sword and saved the lives of others. He put an end to the nightmare. And, after the final fight, live or die, he thought he and Asuna would be together.

But in the real world, for a while he could barely stand. Instead of a reliable hero, he was just a highschool student who'd missed two years of schooling. And worst of all, he was parted from Asuna after all. There's nothing surprising about his break down.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I totally respect that romance is not your preference and that you don't enjoy this sort of content. But I just want to point out that what we seemed to see of them on the outside and what was actually going on inside are a bit different here.

Kirito was a person who looked strong and stoic, and wanted to believe that he had the power to save people, but he struggled time and again with the realization of just how powerless he really is, starting all the way back with the way he abandoned Kline and blames himself for Sachi's death. This was actually a recurring theme of his character development throughout the whole work (even in this recent episode) that I honestly wish had been emphasized even more throughout the story. He may have looked strong, but he's actually incredibly fragile. It's only in front of Asuna (and a little bit with Suguha) that he can let that side of him out.

Asuna, meanwhile, was a person who took on a huge burden of responsibility and was so obsessed with clearing the game and getting her life back that she could easily have had a total breakdown (and she basically did). Even in the little time she allowed herself to sleep, she barely could do so being plagued with nightmares. She did everything in her power to stay focused and look strong -- and that's the Asuna we saw. But it wasn't until she began to fall in love with Kirito that she was able find some perspective, put an end to the nightmares, and start taking care of herself a bit more. Asuna has a huge strength of will, and that's really what drove her to push herself so hard, but all this takes a toll on a person, and it's only with Kirito/Kazuto that she could bring her life into balance.

So the bottom line for both of them is that they weren't "very much fine" before their relationship. They looked fine, but they were isolated and carrying huge burdens with no one to confide in or to rely on for emotional support. So that's why, when you see the two of them together, they tend to be almost the polar opposites of their regular selves in some ways. Every person has both strength and weakness, maturity and immaturity, fighting for some sort of balance. It's the times when they're with each other that they can not be afraid to let their "other sides" come out. And that's why, the show is arguing, that they're much better together than apart. By finding this balance, they'll be able to face even greater challenges together.

I can only agree with that. It's just a shame that everything was so extremely rushed.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

No. That it didn't. Or is a crying, obsessed person who can't think of anything else than one person suddenly mature and strong now?

There is a wise Japanese saying that goes something like this:

強さは自分の弱さを気付くこと。

Strength is realizing one's own weakness.

Kirito and Asuna are not "obsessive" over each other. "Can't think of anything else?"
Did Kirito not show much consideration for Suguha/Lyfa? Did Asuna not show much consideration for the other 300 people trapped in SAO?
What about for Yui?

Kirito had to deal with the fact that if he didn't find Asuna soon, a rapist was going to MARRY her comatose body.

How the hell could anyone think of much else under those circumstances!?

Further more, 'obsessive' behavior is much more negative than this. Have you ever watched anime that feature a yandere?

THAT'S obsessive behavior. The very definition of it. Bat-shit crazy, won't let anyone else near the person, stalks the person, threatens to kill themselves if said person 'leaves them'. Threatens to kill anyone else who tries to like the person too?

Kirito and Asuna are not like that. Kirito killed Sugou not because "he liked her" but because he was bent on having his own selfish ways with her and BREAKING her in both body and mind.

Hell, Kirito turned from a cool, friendly guy into a whiny, emotionally dependent guy who cries, while not for his mommy, for his girlfriend all the time.

No, he did not.
During SAO's later arc, he cried....ONCE. Why? Because it was, what he assumed, 'the afterlife'. He had promised to protect Asuna and get her back to the world and he thought he had failed her. And not just her, but the other thousand players in the game as well. And himself.

During ALO's arc, he cried...TWICE. Why? The first time it was when he had to face the fact that he was absolutely powerless in the real world. The second time was after the final battle. Those were either tears of relief or happiness...because he managed to do what he thought was impossible.
Crying out of relief or happiness is NOT weak.

If you dislike anime romance, I can understand you not liking this. But don't insult their relationship by calling it 'childish infatuation' or 'obsession'. Because it's not anything like that and I KNOW my romance. Inside and out. If I thought KiritoxAsuna was unhealthy, I would not ship them.

As for Twilight, I graciously offer BellaxEdward a giant middle finger.
Idiot Mary-Sue girl obsessing over a stupid Mary-Sue vampire who does nothing but emotionally abuse her after protecting her one time?
Yuck, how can you possibly compare them!?

Shishkebab. Not shisha (a waterpipe) kabob (??? what?). Sorry, I don't know why, but that bothered me

Dully noted.

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Setting aside Kayaba the false god for a second, believing in God's benevolence/"goodwill towards men" is a matter of faith. Many people are born to die without really having a chance to live (in crippling poverty, with fatal diseases, by senseless tragedies...) so coming to terms with this is one of humanity's great and timeless religious struggles. Here, Kayaba's malice is clear because we see him snuffing the freedom away from them. But humanity has always asked themselves: "if God really exists, and God really created us, why are we here and what does God want?" I wonder if the answers we got would be satisfactory by our thinking. What if he did all this for "Himself" in our view? Perhaps he didn't really have a reason that make sense, or he's "long since forgotten"? Who can understand the logic, and does it need a justification we can accept? Is not having a reason we can understand part of what makes him "God"?

It's just something fun to ponder in the context of this show, anyway.

Quite a philosophical approach you have there

Well I can only agree that believing in god's goodwill or not is always something you have to decide for yourself, but well just as Hiob I always ask me the question: why does a "good" God allow evil deeds and persons? The answer of the Bible is not really enough for me, but that would go too off topic xD

Anyways, unlike the "real" God, we can see Kayabas ambitions and faults and so we can judge about him and his actions.

The answer lies there: can we really say that Kayaba who killed approximately 4000 persons for "creating" a new world is so much worse than a God, who destroyed the whole world apart from Noah and his ark by a flood without knowing his "real" intentions?

We can always say that God acts for our sake, but there is no proof for that as there is no that he is working against us.

To make the long story short, what I want to say is that we can only condemn Kayabas actions cuz we know, at least partly, his ambitions; without knowing God's one we can't say he is worse or better than God, because even Kayaba did some good things and in the end he did exactly the same as "our" God did and does on a smaller scale.

Is Kayaba selfish? Without doubt!
Does that him disqualify as "false" God? Imo no...

The analogy is not incomplete because Kayaba is human, its incomplete because kayaba did not give those 10k players something of immeasurable value and that Kayaba's reason are more clear.

Without God you would have no life... if you suffered this creates a conundrum. Do you thank God for the life he gave you or the fact that you suffered. How much do you treasure the moments you lived versus how much you hate the times when you suffered. Life has an immeasurable worth to it which is what makes that question so difficult. Without God there wouldn't have been any happiness if your life at all as you would have never been born

But for the players they had lives before SAO, they had happiness; they had friends and family and most likely lived normal lives with nothing more than normal hardships. And if they had not found true happiness in their lives yet there is nothing saying they won't because they still have their lives ahead of them. What Kayaba created for the players in SAO can not be measured on the same scale as the gift of "life". What makes it worse is that what he "gave them" came at a VERY heavy price of risking that immeasurable gift of life; and players did not pay willingly... "live in this world of SAO at the high risk of your life" ... even if you in some way gained some happiness from the experience it would be easy to conclude that it was not worth it since there was always possibilities that you could have achieved similar happiness without his deathgame...


and unlike god, we KNOW Kayaba's reasons and they were selfish; in a sense he didn't give the players anything; even if they got something out of it, it was not part of his intent. He stole your lives so that he could play in his fantasy castle. With God it becomes something of a hot debate as their are so many possibilities an explanations with their counter points, but not so much with Kayaba as he is much more clear. He doesn't really deserve your thanks; not at the price paid


Kayaba's gift to the players was not as valuable as god's gift, came at a high price that they paid by force and he did it all for selfish reasons.

But he did give them sth of immeasurable value:

Plenty of memories and although there are many, which will be tragic or feel uneasy, there is at least the same amount of positiv memories.

The friendships, the love, the hate, the uneasyness, just like Kirito said, those emotions are real in that world just because this IS a world where you can really die.

In that kind of world normal people don't play their emotions as sooner or later they will break under those fake ones.

Friendships like those are sth you just can't find while playing online normally.

From my viewpoint, it's not your birth what makes your life, it's the memories you have from it.

So imo (and really only imo) the gift of memories is just as great as the gift of birth, because you can always end a life, so "destroy" the birth but you can't take the memories away from sb, apart ofc because of diseases

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Esebian

So imo (and really only imo) the gift of memories is just as great as the gift of birth, because you can always end a life, so "destroy" the birth but you can't take the memories away from sb, apart ofc because of diseases

Or... (and to come full circle) by manipulating the brain. It's no surprise that this is a theme of the second arc of the show, because what Sugou is threatening to take away through his experiments are the very memories that he and the other 300 captive survivors had in that world. And while for some of them that may be totally okay (because perhaps their memories of that place are, in their judgement, just horrible), for others (like Asuna) it definitely isn't: despite all that happened in SAO, falling in love with Kirito made her the happiest of her whole life (thus far). And this is why, as I alluded to at the start, Kayaba asks Kazuto to consider what to do with The Seed if he has "more than just resent/hatred/contempt for that world".

Beyond that, in response to your argument in general, I guess the counter would be that he didn't exactly give them the gift of memories, but forcefully traded memories with them. You never know what would have happened for those 10,000 people if they had never entered SAO on that fateful day. Against their will, their memories were traded for something else, and they'll never know what they gave up. And for those who died, you might certainly assume that whatever memories they might have had would have been better than the ones they were given.

But again, this goes back to the point before that, in this case, people know exactly what they're giving up. In the broader "celestial" sense, we don't know and we can't know. But still, it does address a question that -- in this world where we're often reminded that each day thousands die from violence, malnutrition and treatable disease -- perhaps "life" is indeed not the only gift of value that were were given.

Anyway, as I said before, I'm just glad that it's giving something to think about. I think the interesting conversations only happen when people turn on their brain, see through their various hang-ups, and start thinking a bit outside the box.

[Asuras]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

What is utterly ridiculous and unacceptable is Sugou's over the top evil villain portrayal which many have pointed out. he villain turned out to be some pathetic, weak clown with nothing to his name that makes him even remotely interesting. Letdown.

I wholly agree with this. In the beginning I was doubtful of his character being anything profound or exciting (obvious pervert wants chick for himself), but I didn't think too much of him. I kinda let it go. "Maybe he'll have a better reason alongside it?"

When he started showing his true self as some obnoxious douchebag who's out for mind manipulation because of "ULTIMATE POWER" for no other reason than wanting that power, I kinda just dropped any hope. When he started his inane cackling while molesting fan-service Asuna, I literally face-palmed. Literally. My face met my palm, and an audible smack sounded in the room. I hate these types of villains. If anything, they just appear as lazy psychopaths who were created by a character designer(s) with their attention set on other characters... How often have I seen the villain type that starts madly laughing with power? Too many times. I wonder what makes them even worth creating?

He starts acting like a total wimp with his sword when just seconds ago he was balancing a compensation-greatsword on his finger... Just what? I agree. Sugou was a terrible villain and a huge let-down.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Asuras

He starts acting like a total wimp with his sword when just seconds ago he was balancing a compensation-greatsword on his finger... Just what? I agree. Sugou was a terrible villain and a huge let-down.

I agree his character was rather lame, but the point of this was that without his admin abilities, he really had nothing. He had only relied on using his godly powers to do anything and had no composure when he suddenly lost them.

[Rising Dragon]

The fear generated from his realization that he lost those powers and that he was going up against someone who had spent two years becoming a master swordsman must've been delicious.

[Asuras]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

I agree his character was rather lame, but the point of this was that without his admin abilities, he really had nothing. He had only relied on using his godly powers to do anything and had no composure when he suddenly lost them.

I feel they could have reflected that instead with just his strength, as with his admin powers he likely had unlimited strength stat (or whatever it is). Without it, the episode evidently displayed his lack of strength, but the way in which he swung his sword is not necessarily dependent on any stats. You saw him working his magic on Kirito's sword before he got dropped, but then suddenly he looses all sword-using skill afterwards? It'd be like if I was playing a fighting game dishing out combos like nobody's business, but suddenly my character's power level is decreased and so I start licking the controller to try and win. It doesn't make much sense.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Asuras

He starts acting like a total wimp with his sword when just seconds ago he was balancing a compensation-greatsword on his finger... Just what?

Before he was the head GM and had all the power of the game at his finger tips. Without his GM powers, he's nothing, even when given (what I assume) is the game's best sword. So yeah, I think basically the point is that he's not supposed to be a "good villain". He's, at best, an annoying pestilence that Kazuto and Asuna are forced to deal with because, somehow, he got himself into a position of power. I'm not sure it's actually possible that anyone could "like him", and the author made absolutely zero effort to do otherwise. It's pretty clear that was done on purpose.

I guess the question is "why would the author write this sort of villain in this arc?" The answer a lot of people give is "the author is incompetent". If that's all there is to it then I guess the conversation ends there. But if we go past that, at least for the sake of argument, you have to wonder what other reasons there are, beyond of course propelling the plot. One reason I think is interesting is the reason Kazuto himself offers in the episode: that this is the punishment for his arrogance; even faced with the world's lamest villain, he can do nothing. That's just how "lame" Kirito's supposed "power" is. His only avenue left is to, basically, rely on "god" to save him. Having power in a game isn't the same as having power in real life; it's not a world that's "fundamentally fair" (as it were) where levels are based on skill or effort. (And you don't always get a "chance" like Heathcliff offered him to fight fair and square.) In the real world, even a total clown can gain power, and -- as Kirito realized -- he has to be the sort of person who can protect people in that world.

I'm not saying that's some sort of justification. But I think even Sugou's complete incompetence says something about some of the leaders in the world in which we live, and I wonder if conveying that was part of the author's intent in this arc (even though it could have been written in so many other ways).

Originally Posted by Asuras

It'd be like if I was playing a fighting game dishing out combos like nobody's business, but suddenly my character's power level is decreased and so I start licking the controller to try and win. It doesn't make much sense.

Well, it's like, below a certain power level, none of the combos work anymore. So all he could do was like basic punch and kick. But I think I also go with the comment Rising Dragon made that the real problem here probably wasn't physical but psychological. Even if he really *could* still swing that sword like he could before, the real problem was realizing that all his power was taken away from him. So even if he was powerful, he felt powerless, and that impacted the way he swung the sword.

(Like at the end of the SAO arc after Asuna's sacrifice. Kirito was so distraught that he could barely swing a sword at all, even though nothing had changed in terms of his technical ability/power.)

[Rising Dragon]

If he appears at all in the next episode in any shape or form, I imagine we'll finally figure out what Sugou's significance to the story arc is. This show's shown itself to like how the little details add up in the end, and we've still got one more episode left. And I imagine they can't spend ALL of it on the Kazuto/Asuna reunion in the hospital and this "Seed" that Kayaba left him.

[aToMiC95]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Oh goodie, another bullshit episode to add to this series' pile of disappointments.

Looks like the show is being contradictory with it's reality/virtual world crap again. Kirito gains a high-level GM access panel from Kayaba and god only knows how that happened. Sugou proceeds to rip off and remove clothing from Asuna's avatar which should be physically impossible. Finally Kirito proceeds to murder Sugou's avatar in an incredibly grim way which again shouldn't be possible since this is a goddamn video game.

All common sense pretty much just flew out the window for this episode for the sake of making an over-the-top climax. I enjoy cool stuff a lot of the time no matter how nonsensical it is like Kirito's beast transformation, but even this was too stupid for me.

What was with Sugou licking and smelling Asuna so much anyway? What is she a piece of candy?

Thank god the finale is next week before this show starts getting even worse than it currently is. Guess we'll get a bit of closure with Kazuto and Asuna finally meeting up in the real world and explaining just what this "World Seed" is.

Obviously you have not been watching the series completely since there is an answer to everyone of your questions/comments
1) Kirito gained GM access panel from Kayaba(copy) since he is still entwined with the game since it uses the same model as the original Sword Art Online game.
2) How could Sugou ripping off Asuna's clothes be impossible? he is/was the creator programmer of the of ALfheim Online. If he wanted to be able to clothes off he very well could code it into the game.
3) Kirito is able to murder him in that grim way because he set the pain desensitizer to 0 meaning everything he felt in the game would be like what he felt in real life. With suguo even stating that when the power was set below 3 it would start to cause harm to their physical bodies. I'm assuming from all the nerve endings in the body thinking it is real pain since nerves are electrical signals let's remember.
4) And finally I agree the sugou licking/touching/maniacal laughter was a bit over the top.

So really if you're going to say it is all bullshit or doesn't make sense then at least have the courtesy to both watch the whole series so you don't miss stuff and try using some common knowledge.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But if we go past that, at least for the sake of argument, you have to wonder what other reasons there are, beyond of course propelling the plot. One reason I think is interesting is the reason Kazuto himself offers in the episode: that this is the punishment for his arrogance; even faced with the world's lamest villain, he can do nothing. That's just how "lame" Kirito's supposed "power" is. His only avenue left is to, basically, rely on "god" to save him. Having power in a game isn't the same as having power in real life; it's not a world that's "fundamentally fair" (as it were) where levels are based on skill or effort. (And you don't always get a "chance" like Heathcliff offered him to fight fair and square.) In the real world, even a total clown can gain power, and -- as Kirito realized -- he has to be the sort of person who can protect people in that world.

That is a REALLY great take on why Sugou was written the way he was!
Chiibi is impressed.

What was with Sugou licking and smelling Asuna so much anyway? What is she a piece of candy?

Er....some people just have weirdo fetishes like that. See the definition of 'pervert' for more information.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Esebian

But he did give them sth of immeasurable value:

Plenty of memories and although there are many, which will be tragic or feel uneasy, there is at least the same amount of positiv memories.

The friendships, the love, the hate, the uneasyness, just like Kirito said, those emotions are real in that world just because this IS a world where you can really die.

In that kind of world normal people don't play their emotions as sooner or later they will break under those fake ones.

Friendships like those are sth you just can't find while playing online normally.

From my viewpoint, it's not your birth what makes your life, it's the memories you have from it.

So imo (and really only imo) the gift of memories is just as great as the gift of birth, because you can always end a life, so "destroy" the birth but you can't take the memories away from sb, apart ofc because of diseases

in responce to that...

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Beyond that, in response to your argument in general, I guess the counter would be that he didn't exactly give them the gift of memories, but forcefully traded memories with them. You never know what would have happened for those 10,000 people if they had never entered SAO on that fateful day. Against their will, their memories were traded for something else, and they'll never know what they gave up. And for those who died, you might certainly assume that whatever memories they might have had would have been better than the ones they were given.

this...
Its true that meories and love have very high value as they are what makes life so worht living. However, in the case of God, we had nothing before he came along and gave us life, but with Kayaba, those 10,000 players already had many good things of immeasurable value and he took most of it away and added and whole mess load of hardships.

Fact of that matter is all those precious memories and bonds they made came at a heavy price. First being the 4,000 who died; This is then followed by all those who only have hateful memories of that place and their lives are worst because of the experience... and then there was the risk involved for those who did not die; the chance of dying was much higher in that place. And even bigger risk is that there was always a possibility that, if Kirito did not end the game when he did, they might have never ended it... how many of those players had dreams they would have to abandon if they were stuck in another world? What about their friends and families they left in the real world? They would never see any of them ever again. Furthermore, there is a possibility that they could have found equally strong bonds and friendships and memories in the real world, making what they gained in SAO to seem much less significant... overall, what they might have gained may not be that great and came with a VERY heavy price and it was not a price they were offered but what was force on to them... and i doubt even a fraction of the players got as much as kirito got out of it

And heck, if you were to look back on everything that happened and say "it was worth it", that would kind of make you a selfish jerk. Afterall people DIED so that you could have those memories... In a way its kinda like saying that you would allow 4,000 poeple to die if it meant you got the chance to meet the love of your life. To make it more personal lets ask kirito which he would pick; Sachi being alive or getting to be with Asuna. Now does that mean kirito can't be happy with what he got? No because its not his fault any of this happened, he was a victim as everyone else; as a victim he deserves to enjoy what ever he can. He only becomes a jerk if he was actually glad all those horrible things happened.

And again to top this all off, we know Kayaba's reasons for all this and they were purely selfish. His goal wasn't to give you fond memories, his goal was to play in his castle and you were one of his toys. The fact that you got ANYTHING out of it is purely incidental. Honestly just look at the man's behavior when asuna died by his blade; he doesn't even care that she's dead. This is man playing with human lives as if they were nothing but mere toys

It pretty much removes all reason to be ok with Kayaba and what he has done. He is a selfish monster and nothing more.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I guess the question is "why would the author write this sort of villain in this arc?" The answer a lot of people give is "the author is incompetent". If that's all there is to it then I guess the conversation ends there. But if we go past that, at least for the sake of argument, you have to wonder what other reasons there are, beyond of course propelling the plot. One reason I think is interesting is the reason Kazuto himself offers in the episode: that this is the punishment for his arrogance; even faced with the world's lamest villain, he can do nothing. That's just how "lame" Kirito's supposed "power" is. His only avenue left is to, basically, rely on "god" to save him. Having power in a game isn't the same as having power in real life; it's not a world that's "fundamentally fair" (as it were) where levels are based on skill or effort. (And you don't always get a "chance" like Heathcliff offered him to fight fair and square.) In the real world, even a total clown can gain power, and -- as Kirito realized -- he has to be the sort of person who can protect people in that world.

Another interesting interpretation, though i don't really agree with this interpretation mainly because while Suguo was a Lame villian, he was not a physically weak one; his admin powers gave him complete control over the situation and nothing Kirito could have done in any other scenario could have saved him. In essence while part of the point of this arc seems to humble kirito, i don't think Suguo's personality was crafted to be an integrate part of that message. I mean when it comes down to it, his thoughts at that moment seemed to be "I am not as powerful as i thought", and not really "how could I loose to someone so lame". That same message would have been found with just about ANY villain in this siuation.

Really it just feels like the Author wanted to make the most vile villain he could think of but at the same time did not want to seem like he was glorifying him; I mean the guy is a rapist, you don't really want him to have fans like other villains... pretty much a success on that part, but such a vile villain just doesn't really make for a good main villains. Someone as lame as Suguo tend to work better as one-note villains rather than main villains; really suguo seems like he has a lot in common with that one nut from Laughing Coffin that tried to kill kirito; that guy i feel worked better as a villain if only because he was only around for a short time. These kind of cowardly sadists just aren't that interesting to follow for a whole story arc.



Though it does make me kind of wonder why we even had this arc... SAO just seems like it would have been a much better place to leave it rather than putting together this second absurd scenario? The first half of this series was great even though it had something of a lackluster ending, while the second half has been less great... The villain was uninteresting, the situation felt somewhat convoluted, and the stakes did not seem as high which kind of lowered the tension... and i didn't much care for Asuna being downgraded to damsel in distress either... SAO was a lot more interesting to watch than ALO. Instead of the rushed ending of SAO they could have kept going and gave it a more satisfying finale. If the author wanted to make ALO, then he could just start fresh with a new series that takes place in the same continuity. Though with the Seed, i guess the author may be planning to keep this series going, so maybe the future will hold more of a point.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by aToMiC95

Obviously you have not been watching the series completely since there is an answer to everyone of your questions/comments
1) Kirito gained GM access panel from Kayaba(copy) since he is still entwined with the game since it uses the same model as the original Sword Art Online game.
2) How could Sugou ripping off Asuna's clothes be impossible? he is/was the creator programmer of the of ALfheim Online. If he wanted to be able to clothes off he very well could code it into the game.
3) Kirito is able to murder him in that grim way because he set the pain desensitizer to 0 meaning everything he felt in the game would be like what he felt in real life. With suguo even stating that when the power was set below 3 it would start to cause harm to their physical bodies. I'm assuming from all the nerve endings in the body thinking it is real pain since nerves are electrical signals let's remember.
4) And finally I agree the sugou licking/touching/maniacal laughter was a bit over the top.

So really if you're going to say it is all bullshit or doesn't make sense then at least have the courtesy to both watch the whole series so you don't miss stuff and try using some common knowledge.

Nothing would happen to the nerves btw. Pain happens in the brain, not the nerves.

What they mean is that your real brain, and by extension, your real body, will start to suffer the effects of feeling real pain.


By the way, to those who think Kayaba is worse than God, answer me this question:

Did any of you ask to be born? Life wasn't given to you, it was forced on you.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Before he was the head GM and had all the power of the game at his finger tips. Without his GM powers, he's nothing, even when given (what I assume) is the game's best sword. So yeah, I think basically the point is that he's not supposed to be a "good villain". He's, at best, an annoying pestilence that Kazuto and Asuna are forced to deal with because, somehow, he got himself into a position of power. I'm not sure it's actually possible that anyone could "like him", and the author made absolutely zero effort to do otherwise. It's pretty clear that was done on purpose.

I guess the question is "why would the author write this sort of villain in this arc?" The answer a lot of people give is "the author is incompetent". If that's all there is to it then I guess the conversation ends there. But if we go past that, at least for the sake of argument, you have to wonder what other reasons there are, beyond of course propelling the plot. One reason I think is interesting is the reason Kazuto himself offers in the episode: that this is the punishment for his arrogance; even faced with the world's lamest villain, he can do nothing. That's just how "lame" Kirito's supposed "power" is. His only avenue left is to, basically, rely on "god" to save him. Having power in a game isn't the same as having power in real life; it's not a world that's "fundamentally fair" (as it were) where levels are based on skill or effort. (And you don't always get a "chance" like Heathcliff offered him to fight fair and square.) In the real world, even a total clown can gain power, and -- as Kirito realized -- he has to be the sort of person who can protect people in that world.

I'd say it partly ties back into he question of "what is real power?" That the arc's been asking. Kirito has a bunch of carried over stats that let him do amazing feats, but that's not real power. Asuna has been striped of stats, and useage of standard menus. She might as well be a common town NPC for all the power she has in game. Yet she keeps Sugou off her, figures a way out of her cage, nearly escapes on her own, and even when caught, harms the guy that caught her, and grabs an important key card for later use. That's real power. Sugou has admin privileges. He can do whatever he wants with the game, even use spells unreleased to the public. But his admin privileges aren't real power. They can be gone in an instant, leaving him to fend for himself.