Code Geass R2 - Overall Series Impressions & Total Series Rating

[Xander]

Not really, just emphasizing the point. I know you were replying to Charred Knight but I wanted to clear up my own line of thought. That's it.

[Kaioshin Sama]

People still dwelling on the same old subjects I see. Some things never change.

I think it also says something when the people who actually enjoyed this show to the fullest have long since moved on and taken what they could from it and yet it's the people who hated it and felt that the writers and director did everything completely wrong that are the ones that stuck around to rehash why they didn't like it for what seems like it might be all of eternity? I'd almost consider this board a sort of purgatory, albeit one that I can leave at any time. Well....at least now I realize what that whole "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter" banner that flashed up on the screen in episode 22 was about. I'll give people a couple of hints:

1. The most valuable property on monopoly, minus a way of getting around, plus the word "this"
2. A homophone for a word meaning you are tired of something, plus the word "this".

[rave]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

In Turn 5 Villeta is blackmailed with no proof other than the words of Lelouch and Ougi. She's an idiot who had two good scenes the one scene where you see her tits, and the bathing suit that's a piece of cloth tied on by floss.

Most useless character in season 2.Herself and her dog Ougi.In S1 they were sufferable(even when Ougi took advantage of her)but in R2,they were both waste of characters.

[Charred Knight]

One of my projects is watching the english dub and whenever I see a scene that I find hilarious I put it in Narm on TV Tropes.org

It also allows me to watch Code Geass in hindsight and see some incredibly stupid lines that where horribly written. One in particular goes something like "It doesn't matter whose behind the mask only the actions" which is idiotic when you consider that the actions are caused by the people inside the mask.

Does Taniguchi and Okouchi expect me to believe that Lelouch could be replaced? By Suzaku of all people?

Is Suzaku putting on the mask going to raise his IQ 100 points while giving him the strategic knowledge necessary to lead the world?

The line was so bad that I had to stop the video (I watch it on AS' website) and walk around for 5 minutes to cool my head.

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

It also allows me to watch Code Geass in hindsight and see some incredibly stupid lines that where horribly written. One in particular goes something like "It doesn't matter whose behind the mask only the actions" which is idiotic when you consider that the actions are caused by the people inside the mask.

This is what that line meant to me. Basically the line is saying and referencing "It does not matter who is behind the mask, as we will follow them as long as they provide us favorable results. If they fail, we abandon them."



Now as for Suzaku, there is no need for him to lead the world. That is no longer Zero's purpose IMO after the end of the series. IMO, Zero is nothing more than a figure now that brings charisma and increases of moral. Heck, we basically see him pushing Nunnally's wheel chair to the meeting which IMO indicates Zero is now just taking a backseat role to the world's negotiations.

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Could be worse, could be Ohgi. There is always something that is worse. {this thought keeps my sanity of some shows |D}

But yeah, seriously, fiction-realism, kinda was thrown out of the window in the last episodes. At least, it was executed in a nice way.

LOL, Ohgi is in a worst position IMO. I'd rather have him running around in a Zero outfit than having him be prime minister of Japan. I bet if a sequel is created, the problem will arise from something Ohgi did.

[Charred Knight]

The line to me just seem to foreshadow Lelouch's death, and seems to be the staff saying that it doesn't matter whose behind the mask only what he does which to me comes off like saying that as long as some moron is wearing the Zero mask nothing changes.

Suzaku was a naive idiot, and I don't see how becoming cynical is going to make him smarter, all that changed was that Suzaku went from being a naive idiot, to a cynical idiot.

The show is weird because for 49 episodes the series was cynical with the idealist being naive and either becoming cynical or dying horribly, being a battle between the pragmatic Black Knights, and the Evil Britannia, and then for the final episode everyone becomes an idealist, and the ending is very idealisitc about how everyone is getting along great.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

It also allows me to watch Code Geass in hindsight and see some incredibly stupid lines that where horribly written. One in particular goes something like "It doesn't matter whose behind the mask only the actions" which is idiotic when you consider that the actions are caused by the people inside the mask.

Well, not to mention he ripped off Batman when he said that.

[Kaioshin Sama]

It's the fact that Zero is a symbol of the ally of freedom and it actually doesn't matter who is under the mask as long as they can play that role. If people didn't get that point then they have no business complaining about it.

Incidentally, don't you think it's about time to rap it up there Charred Knight or can you not take a hint? You have long since made your point about why you don't like this series, at least get a clue and move on already or do something different.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Suzaku was a naive idiot, and I don't see how becoming cynical is going to make him smarter, all that changed was that Suzaku went from being a naive idiot, to a cynical idiot.

Suzaku's being an "idiot" is a popular (or populist?) claim many of those 10/10 voters will probably support, if you want some more irony, but c'mon...he was stubborn and his idealistic views were extremely questionable, to the point of being annoying, yet he's not retarded.

All things considered, he already had enough "heroic" qualities from the very beginning, even to a stereotypical extent. By the end of the show he wasn't just cynical though, he was also much more of a pragmatist about what needed to be done in order to change the world.

I think he can certainly play the role. A different Zero for a different set of circumstances. Someone who has to keep the peace instead of trying to topple Empires, creating a clandestine organization or directing a massive uprising. If you want to go that far, he could well live up to the "Hero of Justice" image Zero cultivated, as long as the world's current situation allows him to. He could play it straight and not with some hidden agenda.

The show is weird because for 49 episodes the series was cynical with the idealist being naive and either becoming cynical or dying horribly, being a battle between the pragmatic Black Knights, and the Evil Britannia, and then for the final episode everyone becomes an idealist, and the ending is very idealisitc about how everyone is getting along great.

It really depends on how much you want to read into it and how. The way I see it, the series was subverting a particular brand of naive idealism, especially the idea of always sticking to the "right" methods even in the face of Britannia's repressive system, but not idealism in general. The series had an idealistic heart, even back during C.C.'s final monologue at the end of the first season.

After all, ultimate cynism leads absolutely nowhere but to egoism and self-satisfaction or, literally, to nothingness. You could even argue that Lelouch's entire plan (from Zero to Zero Requiem) was extremely cynical, in practice, but its goals were certainly very idealistic. Lelouch had always wanted to create a "gentler" world for Nunnally's sake, he just was willing to murder, steal and lie in order to do so.

At the same time, his methods were also partially condemned as going too far, if you notice all the negative karma he accumulated along the way and how he had to pay a heavy price in exchange for achieving certain results. The series is very gray in its morality, overall, but doesn't shy away from including broad strokes of white and black.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Well, not to mention he ripped off Batman when he said that.

Possibly, but I am willing to bet you could track that idea much further back, I'd be surprised if it wasn't older than Batman, V or whoever.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

It's the fact that Zero is a symbol of the ally of freedom and it actually doesn't matter who is under the mask as long as they can play that role. If people didn't get that point then they have no business complaining about it.

Incidentally, don't you think it's about time to rap it up there Charred Knight or can you not take a hint? You have long since made your point about why you don't like this series, at least get a clue and move on already or do something different.

The world needs more than a symbol it needs a leader, and Lelouch is the only person who was competent who wasn't a nut job.

Originally Posted by Xander

Suzaku's being an "idiot" is a popular (or populist?) claim many of those 10/10 voters will probably support, if you want some more irony, but c'mon...he was stubborn and his idealistic views were extremely questionable, to the point of being annoying, yet he's not retarded.

All things considered, he already had enough "heroic" qualities from the very beginning, even to a stereotypical extent. By the end of the show he wasn't just cynical though, he was also much more of a pragmatist about what needed to be done in order to change the world.

I think he can certainly play the role. A different Zero for a different set of circumstances. Someone who has to keep the peace instead of trying to topple Empires, creating a clandestine organization or directing a massive uprising. If you want to go that far, he could well live up to the "Hero of Justice" image Zero cultivated, as long as the world's current situation allows him to. He could play it straight and not with some hidden agenda.

It really depends on how much you want to read into it and how. The way I see it, the series was subverting a particular brand of naive idealism, especially the idea of always sticking to the "right" methods even in the face of Britannia's repressive system, but not idealism in general. The series had an idealistic heart, even back during C.C.'s final monologue at the end of the first season.

After all, ultimate cynism leads absolutely nowhere but to egoism and self-satisfaction or, literally, to nothingness. You could even argue that Lelouch's entire plan (from Zero to Zero Requiem) was extremely cynical, in practice, but its goals were certainly very idealistic. Lelouch had always wanted to create a "gentler" world for Nunnally's sake, he just was willing to murder, steal and lie in order to do so.

At the same time, his methods were also partially condemned as going too far, if you notice all the negative karma he accumulated along the way and how he had to pay a heavy price in exchange for achieving certain results. The series is very gray in its morality, overall, but doesn't shy away from including broad strokes of white and black.


Possibly, but I am willing to bet you could track that idea much further back, I'd be surprised if it wasn't older than Batman, V or whoever.

Suzaku was a "useful idiot" a person who thinks his doing good, but is instead screwing everything up with his actions. Its made perfectly clear what the Britannians thinks of Japanese, and its clear that Suzaku isn't going to change anything except screw the Japanese even more. Suzaku was too stupid to see that, and was used by everyone while screwing himself up.

The only thing Suzaku was ever able to do is fight, and with no one left to fight than his useless until the world is screwed up due to the incompetency of the rest of the cast.

Britannia needs massive reforms much like what was done to West Germany, and Japan after World War II. The problem comes that if they screw up an even bigger disaster awaits. Look at what happened to Japan when the achilles heel of the constitution gave rise to the military taking over Japan and causing atrocities in World War II.

Could Nunnaly make the reforms while not screwing up? I don't think so

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Britannia needs massive reforms much like what was done to West Germany, and Japan after World War II. The problem comes that if they screw up an even bigger disaster awaits. Look at what happened to Japan when the achilles heel of the constitution gave rise to the military taking over Japan and causing atrocities in World War II.

Could Nunnaly make the reforms while not screwing up? I don't think so

That's why she had Schneizel to help her and "Zero".

And are you implying that Britannia needs reforms in the form of another power coming in and forcing them to adopt a new culture and completely reconstructing their way of life against the will of the people? Cause that's basically what happened to Germany and Japan at the end of World War II. I fail to see how this would help do anything other than continuing the bad blood between Britannia and the rest of the world as it would simply bring about a role reversal with Britannia as the exploited power and the U.N as the oppressor. I think it was pretty clear that they were trying to argue that this was the wrong way to approach things, hence why they had to redirect the ill will that was tainting the relations between Britannia and the U.N somewhere else.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

That's why she had Schneizel to help her and "Zero".

And are you implying that Britannia needs reforms in the form of another power coming in and forcing them to adopt a new culture and completely reconstructing their way of life against the will of the people? Cause that's basically what happened to Germany and Japan at the end of World War II. I fail to see how this would help do anything other than continuing the bad blood between Britannia and the rest of the world as it would simply bring about a role reversal with Britannia as the exploited power and the U.N as the oppressor. I think it was pretty clear that they were trying to argue that this was the wrong way to approach things, hence why they had to redirect the ill will that was tainting the relations between Britannia and the U.N somewhere else.

Schneizel is one of the nutjobs I am talking about, his actions are not one I would want in my goverment, and I don't think any other goverment as well.

So your saying that it would be better to keep Britannia as the racist nation it is? The entire culture of Britannia has a white supremacy bent to it or did you not notice the way that Japanese are treated in the anime.

Japan has an excellent relationship with the United States, and Germany suffers no hatred for the United States, Britain, or Russia so I don't understand what your talking about. The Southern United States also underwent a reform after the Civil War, or do you think that we should bring back slave states?

Much like the Southern United States, Imperial Japan, and Nazi Germany, complete reform is sometimes necessary.

I will also point out that Lelouch did dispose of the aristocacy putting himself as the supreme ruler, meaning that after his death their would need to be a reformation anyway.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Schneizel is one of the nutjobs I am talking about, his actions are not one I would want in my goverment, and I don't think any other goverment as well.

Good thing he's geassed into doing Zero's will then instead of being allowed to act on his beliefs in what the world wants of him. In a way he's kind of been put in the position he's always wanted, being able to do that which others would ask of him and do it well.

So your saying that it would be better to keep Britannia as the racist nation it is? The entire culture of Britannia has a white supremacy bent to it or did you not notice the way that Japanese are treated in the anime.

No, I am saying they should be allowed to work on fixing their own internal problems, and Nunnally doesn't seem like the kind of leader to continue the policies of the Puritan factions. Also two wrongs would not make a right and as I said would just continue the bad blood between the two powers. The U.F.N cannot be allowed to dictate the terms of Britannia's reformation if this is too work.

Japan has an excellent relationship with the United States, and Germany suffers no hatred for the United States, Britain, or Russia so I don't understand what your talking about. The Southern United States also underwent a reform after the Civil War, or do you think that we should bring back slave states?

Hahaha...that's what you think There are pockets of the Japanese population that feel that the American's completely screwed them over in forbidding them to have a decent sized army for protection and for completely changing the way in which they expressed their culture by banning certain age-old traditions and forcing them to mimic a Western style democracy against their will.

As for Europe, why do you think things are so bad in some of the Eastern European states. It's because at the end of the war the victors got to completely redraw the map of the occupied nations and did so with little regard for the differing loyalties, traditions and religious affilitiations of the citizens of those countries. The reformation of the south....there's a lot of bad blood there that lives on to this day as a result of the defeat of the south by the Union. As for slavery, that really has nothing to do with this discussion. The discussion is about reform and whether it's right for another power to just be allowed to come in and force another country into reforming however the power see's fit.

Much like the Southern United States, Imperial Japan, and Nazi Germany, complete reform is sometimes necessary.

Ummmm....yes reform generally is necessary when you've just lost a decisive conflict, but the issue we are getting at here is who should be allowed to dictate the terms of reform.

I will also point out that Lelouch did dispose of the aristocacy putting himself as the supreme ruler, meaning that after his death their would need to be a reformation anyway.

See above.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Good thing he's geassed into doing Zero's will then instead of being allowed to act on his beliefs in what the world wants of him. In a way he's kind of been put in the position he's always wanted, being able to do that which others would ask of him and do it well.

No, I am saying they should be allowed to work on fixing their own internal problems, and Nunnally doesn't seem like the kind of leader to continue the policies of the Puritan factions. Also two wrongs would not make a right and as I said would just continue the bad blood between the two powers. The U.F.N cannot be allowed to dictate the terms of Britannia's reformation if this is too work.

Hahaha...that's what you think There are pockets of the Japanese population that feel that the American's completely screwed them over in forbidding them to have a decent sized army for protection and for completely changing the way in which they expressed their culture by banning certain age-old traditions and forcing them to mimic a Western style democracy against their will.

As for Europe, why do you think things are so bad in some of the Eastern European states. It's because at the end of the war the victors got to completely redraw the map of the occupied nations and did so with little regard for the differing loyalties, traditions and religious affilitiations of the citizens of those countries. The reformation of the south....there's a lot of bad blood there that lives on to this day as a result of the defeat of the south by the Union. As for slavery, that really has nothing to do with this discussion. The discussion is about reform and whether it's right for another power to just be allowed to come in and force another country into reforming however the power see's fit.

Ummmm....yes reform generally is necessary when you've just lost a decisive conflict, but the issue we are getting at here is who should be allowed to dictate the terms of reform.

See above.

Schneizel in the hands of Lelouch could be a tag team necessary to reform Britannia, Schneizel being controlled by Suzaku? His completely wasted.

The question is Nunnaly smart enough to accomplish the reforms? From what we have seen no Nunnaly isn't smart enough she was used by everyone for their goals much like Suzaku. Once again look at how the reforms made by the Japanese goverment lead to the military taking power in Japan.

As for pockets in Japan, they are pockets in America that feel that Whites should rule over blacks, that doesn't mean that the reforms can't happen or they would piss these people off. To quote Mr. Feeny "This is a revolution where going to have to offend someone". The only real problem is that the Japanese need to figure out how to raise children with two working parents.

You deflected the answer from Germany to Eastern Europe which isn't a problem with reform but a problem that happened when they where given to Russia which collapsed. For example, the Polish had been under communist rule that when it collapsed they didn't know how to act, and have to learn.

Also I will point out that Slavery ended because the South rebelled, and where defeated by the American goverment and was forced to change their way of life by the Union. Their could be pockets that want to turn Georgia back into a slave state, but they certainly are not very big.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Schneizel in the hands of Lelouch could be a tag team necessary to reform Britannia, Schneizel being controlled by Suzaku? His completely wasted.

And why would that be?

The question is Nunnaly smart enough to accomplish the reforms? From what we have seen no Nunnaly isn't smart enough she was used by everyone for their goals much like Suzaku. Once again look at how the reforms made by the Japanese goverment lead to the military taking power in Japan.

.....We've been over this, she has Schneizel to help along the way who has mucho political skills, charisma and an understanding of the way things work in Britannian culture.

As for pockets in Japan, they are pockets in America that feel that Whites should rule over blacks, that doesn't mean that the reforms can't happen or they would piss these people off. To quote Mr. Feeny "This is a revolution where going to have to offend someone". The only real problem is that the Japanese need to figure out how to raise children with two working parents.

How is this relevant to the subject exactly?

You deflected the answer from Germany to Eastern Europe which isn't a problem with reform but a problem that happened when they where given to Russia which collapsed. For example, the Polish had been under communist rule that when it collapsed they didn't know how to act, and have to learn.

While this isn't really relevant to the subject either, the very reason that happened was because the power to make the decision to divide Europe down the middle of Berlin was made by an outside group of powers that did not plan things out very well for reasons not merely limited to the fact that they didn't really care about the concerns of the population either. This however is relevant to the subject because as I've suggested it would be a bad idea to allow an outside power like the U.F.N to dictate the terms of Britannia's reform upon the death of it's leader.

Also I will point out that Slavery ended because the South rebelled, and where defeated by the American goverment and was forced to change their way of life by the Union. Their could be pockets that want to turn Georgia back into a slave state, but they certainly are not very big.

How is this relevant to the topic of reform in Britannia? You're digressing quite a bit here and I'm not really understanding what point you are trying to make so let's get back to the issue shall we. You initially said that Britannia needs a style of reform similiar to that which was brought upon Japan, Germany and the Southern United States in the respective post war periods, and that was reform brought by an outside power. How do you see that as preferrable for a lasting peace compared to having Nunally and Schenizel oversee the reforms?

[Charred Knight]

I don't think Nunnaly is competent enough, and I don't think Schneizel is sane enough to do it even with that idiot holding the leash.

Nunnaly was never shown as a brilliant leader, or as being able to handle strategy, so how is she going to all of a sudden be that brilliant reformist, and political leader that Britannia needs.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I don't think Nunnaly is competent enough, and I don't think Schneizel is sane enough to do it even with that idiot holding the leash.

Nunnaly was never shown as a brilliant leader, or as being able to handle strategy, so how is she going to all of a sudden be that brilliant reformist, and political leader that Britannia needs.

She's not stupid though. She also has people all around her who can help.

I can't believe this thread is still up and running.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Freya

She's not stupid though. She also has people all around her who can help.

I can't believe this thread is still up and running.

While Nunnaly isn't stupid that doesn't cut it, you need to either be a genius, or have a ton of competent individuals around her, Nunnaly has neither.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I don't think Nunnaly is competent enough, and I don't think Schneizel is sane enough to do it even with that idiot holding the leash.

Nunnaly was never shown as a brilliant leader, or as being able to handle strategy, so how is she going to all of a sudden be that brilliant reformist, and political leader that Britannia needs.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

While Nunnaly isn't stupid that doesn't cut it, you need to either be a genius, or have a ton of competent individuals around her, Nunnaly has neither.

You're not following at all are you? SHE HAS SCHNEIZEL'S HELP AND HE'S GEASSED TO KEEP HIM FROM ACTING SPONTANEOUSLY! HE WILL DO WHAT IS NEEDED OF HIM! On top of that she has the potential cooperation of all of Britannia's new allies in the U.F.N as well as the members of her court to share the burden. Your competent individuals are limited to no less then Cornelia, Schneizel, Guilford, Suzaku, Lloyd, Cecil and among the ally nations Kaguya, Todou as well. If that's not a decent cabinet to work with as far as the series more politically saavy characters go then I don't know what is. Furthermore the ending doesn't make any guarantees that she will get it all right, but it does leave things looking far far more hopeful then they were at the beginning of the series. That's the ending they were leaving us with, one of hope for a new era in Britannia, Japan and the rest of the world in Code Geass.

Now I must ask, why are you avoiding the question regarding your previous inference that Britannia needs the kind of reform seen in Japan and Germany, and why do you propose that Nunally needs to be a genius in order to see these things few? Many of the great reformers of our time such as Lyndon Johnson and Mikhail Gorbachev were neither geniuses nor were they necessarily surrounded by a group of geniuses. They merely saw for themselves through the relevant data and the will of the people what needed to be done, decided the time was right, and decided to do the necessary work to see that change happened. They also made some mistakes along the way as Nunally probably will, but then again they are only human.

Originally Posted by Freya

She's not stupid though. She also has people all around her who can help.

I can't believe this thread is still up and running.

Our friend here seems to have made well and sure that it stays going in circles for the last little while, but I hope to either settle all of this for good or at the very least help steer it in a more productive direction before it gets filed under retired. I'd rather see it end on a positive note like the series rather then become a total waste.

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by Xander

Suzaku's being an "idiot" is a popular (or populist?) claim many of those 10/10 voters will probably support, if you want some more irony, but c'mon...he was stubborn and his idealistic views were extremely questionable, to the point of being annoying, yet he's not retarded.

Didn't some official source(sound ep, DVD manual) list him as having the lowest I.Q. of the entire cast(main, minor, background or otherwise)? I mean if even Tamaki is smarter than him its not really a stretch to call him a retard.