AnimeSuki Forums

DmonHiro · 2011-03-18, 05:00

Hello friends. I come today with the following question. What do you think about replacing the OP/ED on a DVD/Bluray release with the non-credit version. This means for both normal and ordered chapter releases.

My opinion is that I'd much rather have the clean versions. And am working towards that.

j0x · 2011-03-18, 05:23

as a leecher that do not understand the credits that are in japanese i prefer the non-credited OP/ED versions

PositronCannon · 2011-03-18, 09:30

If possible, it's always the better option. If you're good enough at reading Japanese to read the credits properly, you'd be watching the raw anyway. And less walls of text = better compressibility, especially in what usually is a high motion part of the video, the OP. Another option would be translating the credits, but I'll let TheFluff explain why that's pointless: http://mod16.org/hurfdurf/?p=16

Zalis · 2011-03-21, 02:17

From a moralistic perspective, the credited versions are better. If we're already stealing/infringing/copying/whatever their work, it's like adding insult to injury to strip the staff credits out of it. And I've always held the belief that hardsubbed content like staff credits (translated or not), fansubber credits/logos, and karaoke/signs are a reasonable trade-off that we as leechers should pay for free HQ anime.

But since I know hardly anybody cares about that stuff anymore... From a technical perspective, it doesn't matter if OP/ED are creditless or not, as long as the splicing doesn't cause playback glitches. While I do like reading things like VA credits, I suppose that info is available elsewhere. The only times creditless would be truly bad are:

* OP/ED sequences that look silly and "empty" without the credits, such as Azumanga Daioh.
* OP/ED sequences with subtle evolutions or changes that would be lost if they all used one form of the video.
* OP/ED that include relevant in-show content like episode titles, e.g. Stray Cat Overrun.

max2k · 2011-03-21, 07:48

Good thing if the Credits are "59.94i" interlaced on a normal telecined Picture. Even better when the whole Anime without the "Moonspeak Runes" is cfr ....

Blanchimont · 2011-03-21, 11:18

I haven't any experience with ordered chapters yet(plan to experiment with them eventually, provided I manage to figure out how it works first...), but couldn't that be used to give the choice in this to the viewer? Right-clicking the Haali icon and choosing which edition to play?

TheRyuu · 2011-03-21, 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by max2k

Good thing if the Credits are "59.94i" interlaced on a normal telecined Picture.

This is irrelevant if you know what you're doing.

ssme80386 · 2011-03-21, 23:28

I STRONGLY prefer to watch anime the way it was released by the authors - ie with credits. NCOPEDs are always available to watch separately - which I do.

If you want to make your own anime - just make it for gods sake; don't mess up the stuff other people created.

First, you splice in NCOPEDs, then what? Will you start editing episodes? Like, if there is a boring (for you) dialog - let's just cut it out, right?

Or, if the episode has 2 arcs intertwined - let's cut and re-arrange the parts into 2 separate episodes - one per story arc?

If you want NCEDOPs - you can always use MKV feature called "editions" (together with chapters) to link in alternative parts from external files. Whoever wants smthing "special" - when playing, select the alternative edition and see NCOPEDs.

Again, if you feel like Yui - "I want to do something... but what should I do?" - do YOUR OWN thing, don't "improve" other people's creations!

DmonHiro · 2011-03-22, 03:23

ssme80383: dude, chill. No need to go gung-ho militant on us. If that's your opinion, that's fine, but don't make it out like you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. You must understand that 80% of fansub watchers can't READ the credtis, so it's useless to them. The part about "editing out" makes no sense, you realize that, right?

PS: I already slice in NCOP/ED, and lo and behold, I haven't edited out stuff form the anime... amazingly, neither has anyone else.

Arm · 2011-03-22, 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssme80386

I STRONGLY prefer to watch anime the way it was released by the authors - ie with credits. NCOPEDs are always available to watch separately - which I do.

If you want to make your own anime - just make it for gods sake; don't mess up the stuff other people created.

First, you splice in NCOPEDs, then what? Will you start editing episodes? Like, if there is a boring (for you) dialog - let's just cut it out, right?

Or, if the episode has 2 arcs intertwined - let's cut and re-arrange the parts into 2 separate episodes - one per story arc?

If you want NCEDOPs - you can always use MKV feature called "editions" (together with chapters) to link in alternative parts from external files. Whoever wants smthing "special" - when playing, select the alternative edition and see NCOPEDs.

Again, if you feel like Yui - "I want to do something... but what should I do?" - do YOUR OWN thing, don't "improve" other people's creations!

You realize NCOP/EDs are released as extras by the producers of a show? Judging by your post, you seem to think fans remove the credits, thus altering the author's intended viewing. How can something released by the official producer be altering how they intended it to be viewed?

Heibi · 2011-03-22, 09:00

As a fansubber with a fairly long history(nearly 20 years now) I would say leave the credits in. Add the creditless OP/ED to one of the episodes, like the first one, to the end of the episode. Then you don't have to make the effort in later episodes since it was pointed out that most folks don't watch the credits after the first episode or so.

Or you you can just release the files separately and folks who want to view them will. That's why they are on the DVD release usually, so someone who wants to watch the clean version can do so whenever they want.

I personally prefer the credits to be there even if I can't read them (I understand spoken Japanese better than I read it - kanji hard to read at show speeds). But a fansub group can do whatever they want and folks will decide based on what they prefer.

ssme80386 · 2011-03-22, 21:01

rds here

DmonHiro: dude, chill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

No need to go gung-ho militant on us.

If you think that was gang-ho and militant, my friend, you have seen nothing!

I totally don't like you campaign to turn other fansubbers to do what YOU like. You are more than capable to splice whatever you want into whatever you want yourself. So just do it for yourself, don't drag everyone with you, fair 'nuf?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

don't make it out like you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong

I did NOT say anything even close to that. You are seeing things. Read my post again. Wait... was it subconscious admission that you are 100% wrong? ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

80% of fansub watchers can't READ the credtis, so it's useless to them

Are you looking down on fansub watchers? Do you think YOU should decide what is usefull for them? I SURE HOPE it is NOT what you mean!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

I already slice in NCOP/ED, and lo and behold, I haven't edited out stuff form the anime

Ha! Yes you did edit stuff out! You edited out credits from the anime!

jfs · 2011-03-22, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssme80386

Ha! Yes you did edit stuff out! You edited out credits from the anime!

Oh really?
Substituted an animation sequence for the same animation sequence. The same content is there.
Now, I would say it's dumb replacing an OP or ED where the credits are integral to the animation (best examples I remember right now: ROD TV, Kamichu, current Hourou Musuko), but that's not the common case. If you want to know the credits, go look them up on AniDB or ANN.
No editing is being done: The same animation is present. Otherwise, how is the addition of subtitles, typeset signs or karaoke effects not also editing the original material?

Also let me ask your opinion on this: Fansubbers substituting an OP or ED sequence with the NC version, and then typesetting translated credits (the production studio's credits) on top of that.
I believe one group did that for HunterXHunter Greed Island.

Or how is it any worse that typesetting the fansubbing credits next to the production credits?

You should probably not hang out on a forum of pirates if you actually care about this.

DmonHiro · 2011-03-23, 04:42

1st of all, I'm honored you think I have the power and recognition to influence the major fansubbing groups in the world. Yes, it would be nice if I said "Do it like THIS", and all fansubers would go "Yes, your Highness!", but that's not going to happen (well, not until my conquest of central Japan is completed). Also, I see nothing wrong in suggesting something you want to people who can provide it. If I can convince a few people who release DVDs/BDs to splice in NCOP/ED, then that's great for me, but if not, that's OK. People are allowed to rip and release any damn way they please, and if I don't like it, too bad.

I have already sated my opinion:
1. The credits are useless for most anime watchers, since they cannot read them. This is a fact. If you cannot read something, it is useless to you.
2. Translating the credits is pointless, stupid, and creates screen clutter. IMO, so does romaji karaoke,for the same reasons, but I don't have my flame-proof coat on today, so I'll leave that alone.
3. The most important part of the OP/ED is the animation, not the credits. In fact, the credits get in the way of the animation.

Of course, this does not apply in some situations. There are shows in which the OP changes every so little each episode. Unless the DVD has the clean version of each one of those OP, I would not splice in the clean OP, because I would miss some details.

Anyone may agree or disagree with me, it is their right. I will keep doing things the way I want to do that, that is my right. And if others choose to follow me, praise be to Yevon.

Kristen · 2011-03-23, 08:24

Given the choice between http://i53.tinypic.com/fldqop.png and having that NC, I'll definitely take that NC.

NC versions should always be used unless:

a.) NC versions are unavailable
b.) The OP/ED directly interacts with the credits. For instance, Bakemonogatari OP2 has Mayoi's backpack spitting out credits.

Since otherwise they're just clutter.

Desbreko · 2011-03-23, 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssme80386

I STRONGLY prefer to watch anime the way it was released by the authors - ie with credits. NCOPEDs are always available to watch separately - which I do.

This coming from someone who watches fansubs is laughably hypocritical.

I tend to splice in the creditless OPs/EDs, provided they're available for all variations of both OPs and EDs and it doesn't interfere with changing animation or something. It looks a bit silly to have a creditless OP but then an ED with credits, for example. In those cases, I tend to release the creditless versions in separate files.

Anyone who cares that much about the credits can go download a raw. You shouldn't need subs anyway if you can actually read the credits.

seven|x_x · 2011-03-23, 12:13

ssme80386: you sir, are mad. the way it was intended by the artists? im sure none of them really want scrolling text that nobody reads obscuring their work. true, there are cases where the creators have been creative in their methods of incorporating credits; thats just because they know how shit it looks to have walls of text splayed out randomly over their art.

if you care that much about preserving the original quality, start watching transport streams. make no mistake, the artists definitely intended for there to be commercials there, so make sure to pay attention to them.

@dmonhiro: pretty much whats been said so far: if it can be done seemlessly, then its a nice and easy thing to incorporate into your release. if not, just consider releasing it separately.

mastrboy · 2011-03-26, 06:25

have to say i prefer the non-credited/clean version of the OP/ED, but you should do it the way you prefer, it's not like you are forcing people to download and watch it...

Zalis · 2011-03-26, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by seven|x_x

ssme80386: you sir, are mad. the way it was intended by the artists? im sure none of them really want scrolling text that nobody reads obscuring their work. true, there are cases where the creators have been creative in their methods of incorporating credits; thats just because they know how shit it looks to have walls of text splayed out randomly over their art.

Yes, I'm sure anime production staff that works long hours for shit wages don't actually want to be credited in their work for their work

seven|x_x · 2011-03-27, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zalis

Yes, I'm sure anime production staff that works long hours for shit wages don't actually want to be credited in their work for their work

...every day they dont get fired, they're getting credit for their work.

they do get credit, just not as individuals. nobody cares who drew the penguin in episode 4 of SZS; but they know that shaft did a great job on the show. if someone asks them what they do for work, they say they work at whatever studio; they dont say "what, you didnt see my name on tv last friday?"

2011-03-18, 05:00	Link #1
DmonHiro Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Age: 37	What are your thoughts on NC OP/ED spliced into the episode? Hello friends. I come today with the following question. What do you think about replacing the OP/ED on a DVD/Bluray release with the non-credit version. This means for both normal and ordered chapter releases. My opinion is that I'd much rather have the clean versions. And am working towards that. Last edited by DmonHiro; 2011-03-18 at 05:19.

2011-03-21, 07:48	Link #5
max2k Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Good thing if the Credits are "59.94i" interlaced on a normal telecined Picture. Even better when the whole Anime without the "Moonspeak Runes" is cfr .... __________________

2011-03-22, 09:00	Link #11
Heibi Ancient Fansubber Fansubber Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: KS	As a fansubber with a fairly long history(nearly 20 years now) I would say leave the credits in. Add the creditless OP/ED to one of the episodes, like the first one, to the end of the episode. Then you don't have to make the effort in later episodes since it was pointed out that most folks don't watch the credits after the first episode or so. Or you you can just release the files separately and folks who want to view them will. That's why they are on the DVD release usually, so someone who wants to watch the clean version can do so whenever they want. I personally prefer the credits to be there even if I can't read them (I understand spoken Japanese better than I read it - kanji hard to read at show speeds). But a fansub group can do whatever they want and folks will decide based on what they prefer. __________________ Heibi Central Anime http://www.centralanime.net/caforums2011/

2011-03-23, 08:24	Link #15
Kristen Senior Member Author Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Tech	Given the choice between http://i53.tinypic.com/fldqop.png and having that NC, I'll definitely take that NC. NC versions should always be used unless: a.) NC versions are unavailable b.) The OP/ED directly interacts with the credits. For instance, Bakemonogatari OP2 has Mayoi's backpack spitting out credits. Since otherwise they're just clutter. __________________

2011-03-18, 05:23	Link #2
j0x Giga Drill Breaker Join Date: Jan 2009	as a leecher that do not understand the credits that are in japanese i prefer the non-credited OP/ED versions

2011-03-18, 09:30	Link #3
PositronCannon Senior Member Fansubber Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spain Age: 33	If possible, it's always the better option. If you're good enough at reading Japanese to read the credits properly, you'd be watching the raw anyway. And less walls of text = better compressibility, especially in what usually is a high motion part of the video, the OP. Another option would be translating the credits, but I'll let TheFluff explain why that's pointless: http://mod16.org/hurfdurf/?p=16

2011-03-21, 02:17	Link #4
Zalis Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 42	From a moralistic perspective, the credited versions are better. If we're already stealing/infringing/copying/whatever their work, it's like adding insult to injury to strip the staff credits out of it. And I've always held the belief that hardsubbed content like staff credits (translated or not), fansubber credits/logos, and karaoke/signs are a reasonable trade-off that we as leechers should pay for free HQ anime. But since I know hardly anybody cares about that stuff anymore... From a technical perspective, it doesn't matter if OP/ED are creditless or not, as long as the splicing doesn't cause playback glitches. While I do like reading things like VA credits, I suppose that info is available elsewhere. The only times creditless would be truly bad are: * OP/ED sequences that look silly and "empty" without the credits, such as Azumanga Daioh. * OP/ED sequences with subtle evolutions or changes that would be lost if they all used one form of the video. * OP/ED that include relevant in-show content like episode titles, e.g. Stray Cat Overrun.

2011-03-21, 11:18	Link #6
Blanchimont Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: The wonderful country of Finland^^	I haven't any experience with ordered chapters yet(plan to experiment with them eventually, provided I manage to figure out how it works first...), but couldn't that be used to give the choice in this to the viewer? Right-clicking the Haali icon and choosing which edition to play?

2011-03-21, 23:28	Link #8
ssme80386 Banned Join Date: Aug 2009	I STRONGLY prefer to watch anime the way it was released by the authors - ie with credits. NCOPEDs are always available to watch separately - which I do. If you want to make your own anime - just make it for gods sake; don't mess up the stuff other people created. First, you splice in NCOPEDs, then what? Will you start editing episodes? Like, if there is a boring (for you) dialog - let's just cut it out, right? Or, if the episode has 2 arcs intertwined - let's cut and re-arrange the parts into 2 separate episodes - one per story arc? If you want NCEDOPs - you can always use MKV feature called "editions" (together with chapters) to link in alternative parts from external files. Whoever wants smthing "special" - when playing, select the alternative edition and see NCOPEDs. Again, if you feel like Yui - "I want to do something... but what should I do?" - do YOUR OWN thing, don't "improve" other people's creations!

2011-03-22, 03:23	Link #9
DmonHiro Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Age: 37	ssme80383: dude, chill. No need to go gung-ho militant on us. If that's your opinion, that's fine, but don't make it out like you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. You must understand that 80% of fansub watchers can't READ the credtis, so it's useless to them. The part about "editing out" makes no sense, you realize that, right? PS: I already slice in NCOP/ED, and lo and behold, I haven't edited out stuff form the anime... amazingly, neither has anyone else.

2011-03-23, 04:42	Link #14
DmonHiro Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Romania Age: 37	1st of all, I'm honored you think I have the power and recognition to influence the major fansubbing groups in the world. Yes, it would be nice if I said "Do it like THIS", and all fansubers would go "Yes, your Highness!", but that's not going to happen (well, not until my conquest of central Japan is completed). Also, I see nothing wrong in suggesting something you want to people who can provide it. If I can convince a few people who release DVDs/BDs to splice in NCOP/ED, then that's great for me, but if not, that's OK. People are allowed to rip and release any damn way they please, and if I don't like it, too bad. I have already sated my opinion: 1. The credits are useless for most anime watchers, since they cannot read them. This is a fact. If you cannot read something, it is useless to you. 2. Translating the credits is pointless, stupid, and creates screen clutter. IMO, so does romaji karaoke,for the same reasons, but I don't have my flame-proof coat on today, so I'll leave that alone. 3. The most important part of the OP/ED is the animation, not the credits. In fact, the credits get in the way of the animation. Of course, this does not apply in some situations. There are shows in which the OP changes every so little each episode. Unless the DVD has the clean version of each one of those OP, I would not splice in the clean OP, because I would miss some details. Anyone may agree or disagree with me, it is their right. I will keep doing things the way I want to do that, that is my right. And if others choose to follow me, praise be to Yevon.

2011-03-23, 12:13	Link #17
seven\|x_x ( ﾟ∀ﾟ)ｱﾊﾊ八八ﾉヽﾉヽﾉヽﾉ＼ / ＼ Join Date: Apr 2010 Age: 36	ssme80386: you sir, are mad. the way it was intended by the artists? im sure none of them really want scrolling text that nobody reads obscuring their work. true, there are cases where the creators have been creative in their methods of incorporating credits; thats just because they know how shit it looks to have walls of text splayed out randomly over their art. if you care that much about preserving the original quality, start watching transport streams. make no mistake, the artists definitely intended for there to be commercials there, so make sure to pay attention to them. @dmonhiro: pretty much whats been said so far: if it can be done seemlessly, then its a nice and easy thing to incorporate into your release. if not, just consider releasing it separately.

2011-03-26, 06:25	Link #18
mastrboy Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009	have to say i prefer the non-credited/clean version of the OP/ED, but you should do it the way you prefer, it's not like you are forcing people to download and watch it...