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Old 2009-03-06, 01:35   Link #2841
Xanithor
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Spoiler for Algalon the Observer:
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Old 2009-03-06, 02:03   Link #2842
Mr Hat and Clogs
Did someone call a doctor
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Oh that is awesome... He sounds so cold and emotionless. All based on logic...

Spoiler for cool line, that sounds evil:


Uldaur is going to be the first raid in ages with so much lore packed into it rather then a bunch of random bosses with the only story figure a boss at the end...
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Old 2009-03-06, 03:56   Link #2843
Keroko
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Spoiler for Ulduar stuff:
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Old 2009-03-06, 08:52   Link #2844
Last Sinner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBladewing View Post
There's the Argent Tournament thing coming out if you care about that. I actually know nothing about it but pretty sure it is accessible to everyone. Honestly though, if you have no interest in raiding or pvp I think you're probably done until the next expansion, based on past precedent. They may add one new 5-man or some interesting event but content patches are usually raids or pointless fluff. I think this is especially more likely now that they want everyone including really terrible players to be able to clear raids.
95% of players are terrible. So yeah, Blizzard would be financially suicidal to not play to the majority.

Ironic day today...

VoA 25 on my mage - Deadly Silk Gloves x 2 drop. I roll 86. The 2 mages that were utterly pitiful on the meter both roll 88....

I log on my Druid in disgust and hit 80. I blow 2.5k gold to respec resto and buy up anything epic/reasonable blue to have a resto set.

Heal H Violet Hold 5 mins later. Win epic feral staff.
Heal H Utgarde Keep with same group. Win epic feral belt.
Heal H Nexus with scrub DPS. 2 manned 2 bosses with the tank due to their stupidity...900 DPS Mage asks me what a good spec is and why he shouldn't spam Arcane Explosion on most packs.
Heal H Strath with even worse DPS. Win epic caster ring and outroll an 800 DPS Warlock. How can anyone be that bad at 80?! On a Warlock?!
Heal H Drak. Awesome DPS group but the tank was quite soft, was a real struggle to keep him alive most of the time. He was terrible on Dred, he took 25k from 1 hit...which virtually 1 shotted him as he was 27k hp.

Took me only one run to get used to Wild Growth and Nourish. Fun moves.

Now I just need some luck in Nexus, Gundrak and UK to get this steamy Nelf into raids.

My Druid wins more in 3 hours of Heroics than my Mage did in 3 weeks of Heroics...typical...yet it felt so damn good. ^^
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Last edited by Last Sinner; 2009-03-06 at 09:07.
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Old 2009-03-06, 09:08   Link #2845
RWBladewing
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
95% of players are terrible. So yeah, Blizzard would be financially suicidal to not play to the majority.
And yet, somehow the game still managed to flourish during vanilla and tbc when it was not entirely dedicated to terrible players. Yes, what they're doing now will probably make them more money but it is horrible for the game and for people who actually want a challenge. I feel like a broken record saying this though as I have already exhaustively argued my stance on it, and thus this will be my final reply to this subject.
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Old 2009-03-06, 09:12   Link #2846
Last Sinner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBladewing View Post
And yet, somehow the game still managed to flourish during vanilla and tbc when it was not entirely dedicated to terrible players. Yes, what they're doing now will probably make them more money but it is horrible for the game and for people who actually want a challenge. I feel like a broken record saying this though as I have already exhaustively argued my stance on it, and thus this will be my final reply to this subject.
Hey, I agree with you. When I can play better 5 minutes after hitting 80 on an alt and respeccing compared to so many randoms who have played for months or years and still don't understand their class...it's infuriating. But Blizzard have a business to run and 11 million customers to satisfy. If they only please the top echelon, the bubble will burst quickly. The chages they made brought players back in droves. Hopefully Ulduar will be hard. If Ensidia clear it within a week, all that development has been for naught. I'd like to see it take at least 3 months. For it to actually mean something to make it to the end.
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Old 2009-03-06, 09:52   Link #2847
Mr Hat and Clogs
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And yet, somehow the game still managed to flourish during vanilla and tbc when it was not entirely dedicated to terrible players.
Yes but remember back then WoW's primary competition was EQ. People wanted something new and WoW offered it to them. There were quests, a more friendly interface, lots of customisation, hell I even PvP was promised! Now days nearly all MMO's have copied this model, and Blizzard has (in their good sense) seen to a way to ensure that the maximum amount of player base gets to see content and stay subscribed. As to if the method they chose was the right one is to be seen, personally I really like the idea of hard modes. You don't have to do them every week but they are there for a challenge (sometimes you just want to blow shit up).

I do tend to agree that many people really do need to learn to play but their $15 is just as good as yours or mine, they should have the opportunity to see upper level content. Bliz can only do so much to make its 'accessible' though, its a fine line between easy and hard, and whats hard for some is easy for others - which is why I like hard modes, they just need to make the rewards worth it now otherwise people won't do them. Seriously yes, sub 1k dps level 80's are just maddening. Also its impossible to offer advice to people in the game anymore. The community is little more then a pack of rabid dogs outside of guilds.

Quote:
Hopefully Ulduar will be hard. If Ensidia clear it within a week, all that development has been for naught. I'd like to see it take at least 3 months. For it to actually mean something to make it to the end.
I wouldn't say it is for naught. They will have had an entire PTR cycle to 'practice' content (which can last a month or so). They will know the strats inside and out before the patch hits live so they will clear it quick and go for the 'world firsts'. The bulk of the population will not be so 'dedicated' so they will not really know what the strats are. What I'm getting at here is it doesn't matter if Ensidia clears it in a day, a week, or a month what should matter is how fast you clear it. What they do shouldn't have any bearing on how successful you and your guild will be and how much you enjoy the raid.

I know they cleared all the content in a week, but do I care? Not really, I prefer going at my own (guilds) pace. Why rush to the end? We'll see all the content before the next is released and we'll all be geared for when that happens, but why rush? When its 4 months between patches you can afford to savor it. We'll stick to our two (sometimes three) raids a week with a lot of the same people we've had for the last 4 years.

Mmm I got a little preachy towards the end there, which wasn't really my intention. I've just seen so many 'top guilds' collapse because they are all pushing hard and fast to imitate 'the best of the best', yet if they took their time a little they'd probably still be around today. Argh I'm doing it again... I'm going to bed its 2am.
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Last edited by Mr Hat and Clogs; 2009-03-06 at 10:02. Reason: added some stuff
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Old 2009-03-06, 10:40   Link #2848
RWBladewing
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Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post

I do tend to agree that many people really do need to learn to play but their $15 is just as good as yours or mine, they should have the opportunity to see upper level content.
I know I said I was not gonna touch this subject again but I had to make one last reply as I absolutely HATE this argument more than anything. The game has always offered equal opportunity for everyone to see everything. It's people's own schedule or skill that determines whether or not they do. If people can only play an hour a week and don't have time to raid, it doesn't mean that the game itself is denying them the opportunity to do so. Sure, that is unfortunate for them, but they don't deserve to have the game catered to them any more than the people who do nothing but play all day do. If people don't feel their schedule allows them to get the most out of the game, they should adapt (clear Naxx a wing per day for example) or find a new game where it does, not sit there and scream for the game to be changed to accomodate them at others' expense. I'm not trying to say I want the game catered specifically to me either, just really tired of watching it get dumbed down from the great game it once was.

I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for the people who have no time constraints but just can't get there because of skill. That's basically saying "Yeah so I bought Mario and keep running off the first cliff over and over, but I paid the same for it as everyone else so I'm gonna sit here and scream until you put me right next to the final Bowser because I deserve to see all the content." People who aren't good enough to clear the previous content should not see the next content, period, it's the way games used to be and the way they should continue to be. I can't stand people who have a sense of entitlement and think they should get everything just because someone else did, without having to work for it.

Not to mention, the whole "I pay the same as everyone else" argument can quite easily be used against itself. "I pay the same $15 as the bad players, why don't I get boss fights that are challenging without going for achievements?"

Yes, what Blizzard is doing is definitely the smartest move in the business sense, but it is also changing and in my opinion ruining the game. Ok, NOW I am done with this subject.

Edit: Er yeah, and sorry if I'm coming off as hostile or anything. I don't mean to be and especially mean no offense to anyone in this thread, but this is one issue I have an extremely strong opinion on.

Last edited by RWBladewing; 2009-03-06 at 11:07.
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Old 2009-03-06, 13:16   Link #2849
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBladewing View Post
If people can only play an hour a week and don't have time to raid, it doesn't mean that the game itself is denying them the opportunity to do so.
You're right. It's the players and their 'you must come online and raid at least 6 days a week' type rules that deny them those opportunities. With less people needed for raids this player-created rule has lessened considerably, fortunately.

Just as you have zero sympathy for the casuals who miss out on this content, I have zero sympathy for the elitists who want to keep it all to themselves. Not to long ago I read a thread suggesting that 10-man be kept easy, but 25-man be extremely hard, like the old raids. The 25-man would get better rewards, of course. The response? The elitist faction said that 'they didn't just want a higher difficulty when they can do things easy-mode'

Translation: We don't care about the difficulty, we just want to keep every bit of lore to ourselves.
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Old 2009-03-06, 13:36   Link #2850
RWBladewing
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Not to long ago I read a thread suggesting that 10-man be kept easy, but 25-man be extremely hard, like the old raids. The 25-man would get better rewards, of course. The response? The elitist faction said that 'they didn't just want a higher difficulty when they can do things easy-mode'

Translation: We don't care about the difficulty, we just want to keep every bit of lore to ourselves.
I was fine with this. This was what every preview indicated that raiding in WotLK would be like. I did find it silly lorewise that 10 people would be able to take down the Lich King but it didn't really matter to me as long as 25 mans retained their level of difficulty. It would have made the idea and path of "progression" much clearer too. However, instead of easy 10 mans and hard 25 mans, we got easy 10 mans, easy 25 mans that are in many cases even easier than the 10 mans, and the only challenge coming from gimmicks and purposely gimping yourself, as opposed to fights that are just legitimately difficult from the beginning.

I do think you are severely overestimating the importance of lore in people's call for difficult raids though. Challenge, sure, e-peen, definitely, lore, not so much. I have been in multiple hardcore guilds throughout my 4 years playing this game and I have always been the only one in the entire guild to have any idea of the story of the place. It's also extremely rare that I even see lore brought into any such argument on the official forums.
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Old 2009-03-06, 13:49   Link #2851
Evangelion Xgouki
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Personally I like the changes they have made with the current state of raiding. Back pre-TBC 40-man raids were difficult. It wasn't so much doing it (though coordinating 40 people and getting the right class break down was a challenge of it own) the hardest part for many was just getting 40 people to raid. Many people were applying for the 'good guilds' on servers which didn't leave much for smaller, more casual guilds to recruit from. Not only that the attitude of many of the larger guilds was...bleh. Especially with the DKP system back then where you practically HAD to be on for each raid even when you weren't guaranteed a spot and had to stay on in case they needed you. Plus the later you joined a guild the more of a disadvantage you had since you had zero DKP as opposed to other guild members who had amassed their points and were the only ones to get gear, leaving newer members gearless and then shut out of higher-tier raids due to lack of gear.

Then in TBC they lowered the raiding numbers which was great. Players could actually have a shot at seeing the massive raid instances Blizzard spent their time developing as well as the lore that it held. To be able to see more than the initial raid instance (I got soo sick of ZG back in the day -_-) was just wonderful.

Now in Wrath with the different raid settings even more people can enter instances. Yes, many call it 'easy-mode' but just to be able to go in and be able to experience it all without having to be in some elitist guild and wait for their 'best' raiders to get all the gear and you get the scraps is great. Plus Blizzard gives you the option to challenge yourself rather than making it an extreme challenge from the start. This way guilds can start at their own pace and gradually increase the difficulty as they get better like the drakes in OS or going for the various achievements for the raid instances (not killing spores, killing the 4 horsemen within 15 seconds of each other, less than 100 Frost Resistance raid-wide, etc).
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Old 2009-03-06, 15:29   Link #2852
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanithor View Post
Spoiler for Algalon the Observer:
Ok that was kind of awesome.
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Old 2009-03-06, 16:17   Link #2853
Hanzoman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You're right. It's the players and their 'you must come online and raid at least 6 days a week' type rules that deny them those opportunities. With less people needed for raids this player-created rule has lessened considerably, fortunately.

Just as you have zero sympathy for the casuals who miss out on this content, I have zero sympathy for the elitists who want to keep it all to themselves. Not to long ago I read a thread suggesting that 10-man be kept easy, but 25-man be extremely hard, like the old raids. The 25-man would get better rewards, of course. The response? The elitist faction said that 'they didn't just want a higher difficulty when they can do things easy-mode'

Translation: We don't care about the difficulty, we just want to keep every bit of lore to ourselves.
I don't understand, why would they want to keep the lore to themselves? Why should they care? That elitist attitude was extremely annoying and in my opinion is one of the main reasons people get turned off by raiding. Incidently, I got turned off by the game period after wotlk came out; the pvp scene was a button mashing fest and all it took to kill people where a couple of hits. Maybe I'll pick it up again later this year if things get better.
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Old 2009-03-06, 16:28   Link #2854
Mr Hat and Clogs
Did someone call a doctor
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Quote:
I absolutely HATE this argument more than anything.
Since I couldn't be bothered to argue about it either the long and the short of it is, I'm glad they made stuff more accessible. Whether or not its to easy is really just personal taste, for those that want a challenge there is the 'hard modes'. For the hard modes to be worth while they need to have better loot something which Sarth 3D did not have but they are going to fix in Uldaur, apparently. For me all of that is fine and dandy.

As for raiding and not caring about the lore, perhaps I'm just lucky in my guild. There are a good half dozen or so of us that are interested in a good back story to an instance and why we do it. I myself just love being able to be involved in an instance with a good back story and I'm able to get into an instance a lot more if it has a better back story, which is probably a left over of those heady RPG days of Baldurs Gate and so on. Sure there is gear and loot, but I enjoy it more if I know there is a reason to why I'm getting it rather then just killing Boss_Mob_03.
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Old 2009-03-06, 16:38   Link #2855
krisslanza
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Raids look interesting and all in Wrath since they feel like there's meaning.
Problem is having to muck through a lot of boring stuff to 80 first. And I wish more of the high-end gear had actual unique skins instead of recolors of older stuff.
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Old 2009-03-06, 16:59   Link #2856
Mr Hat and Clogs
Did someone call a doctor
 
 
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Well Naxx gear was always going to be just a 're-colour' because people got all nostalgic about those sets due to the fact that they were the best looking sets back then (cept the paladins, lol).
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Old 2009-03-06, 17:02   Link #2857
Evangelion Xgouki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
Well Naxx gear was always going to be just a 're-colour' because people got all nostalgic about those sets due to the fact that they were the best looking sets back then (cept the paladins, lol).
I liked them bringing the old armor sets back for the Naxx Tier gear. It just kinda...set the mood I think (and those of us who never got it were able to finally 'get' the armor now ). Priest T8 looks alright. At least we don't have glowing armor nipples like pallies
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Old 2009-03-06, 17:21   Link #2858
Mr Hat and Clogs
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High beam, coming through!
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Old 2009-03-06, 17:29   Link #2859
Evangelion Xgouki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
High beam, coming though!
Hmmm...priests have a holy spell called Holy Fire and if we link that to Mazinger Z...

Paladin: Take this! Breats Fire!!!

And they also have on on their belts...

Paladins: All together now: Care Bear STARE!
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Old 2009-03-06, 17:34   Link #2860
Ithekro
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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I still consider thing hard after only playing for a year. I could not be sure if I am playing my class correctly (for a raid or otherwise) since I just do what I feel works top kill the target. If I could do it better or take on many more mobs at a time I wouldn't know as a Destruction Warlock since I really haven't played the other two specs farther than 21 in. (currently a 7/13/51 spec for improved Life Tap, Demon Ageas, and Chaos Bolt...up to 7,000+ crits as of early this week.)

I don't raid due to not really knowing all that many people and not really being able to keep a sound playing schedule at this time. I play at random times, sometimes several days a week at different times of the day, or not at all for a week. I just avoid the situation for the most part and sometimes run instances if asked (and I want to), or three man some older instances with my friends that we couldn't run during TBC because we where, and probably still are, undergeared for modern instances. Also the aforementioned 3 man problem. We 2 manned half of Botanica for some Alchemy quest item at 80 and barely took the second (or maybe it was third...the healing treeform druid) boss with a paladin and a warlock.

I don't expect content to be easy for me...I don't expect to see the insides of most raids due to the lack of people, time, whatnots. But I do what I do. If I pick a goal or achievement to get...I'll get it done, eventually.
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