(L) Arpeggio of Blue Steel (Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio)

[synx]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I know that the reactor core itself melts.
Yet that doesn't stop the rest of the reactor from explodin, which it also did.
According to the news a small nuclear mushroom was sighted too.
I'm aware the explosion itself was probably not nuclear, yet the reactor exploded. Thats not the point though, the point is that a radiation got carried all the way to france.

That doesn't mean that it's on the same scale. You know what else also produces mushroom clouds?

BLU-82
MOAB
FOAB

Or any other explosive of sufficient power. The mushroom cloud effect is produced by what is basically convection.

As bad as Fukushima was, we've had worse nuclear accidents.

[MrTerrorist]

FYI, you can now pre-order the english version of Arpeggio of Blue Steel Volume 1 from here and here.

[Tenzen12]

Anyway both corrosive torpedos and HGC does have enough power to twist and even absorb light. Also quite important part is that both use Klein field for quite precise control of it's physical phenomenas.

Anyway I already quoted how corrosive torpedos work and it's comparison to black holes on page 51.

PS: I don't think Arpeggio wiki is reliable enough to use her as argument if it doesn't provide quotation. I will look on it later.

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

In this case however it does matter.
if you need to irradiate a good piece of land to sink the entire fog fleet you are better off not sinking it at all.
And should a single country think they can be inconsiderate towards the others and just do it on their own they'd be the target of several missiles themselves.

I think you'd be surprised just how little military commands care about that, and how little official regulation there is concerning it. And also just how many tactical nukes you'd need to irradiate a significant area like old 1950s era nukes.

And on Fukushima, it is really not the point when the radiation type and cause of the radiation is completely different from a weaponised nuke.

[synx]

Originally Posted by DLRevan

I think you'd be surprised just how little military commands care about that, and how little official regulation there is concerning it. And also just how many tactical nukes you'd need to irradiate a significant area like old 1950s era nukes.

And on Fukushima, it is really not the point when the radiation type and cause of the radiation is completely different from a weaponised nuke.

In the 50s we had fun things like nuclear mortars where the guys firing it was within the blast radius.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Anyway both corrosive torpedos and HGC does have enough power to twist and even absorb light. Also quite important part is that both use Klein field for quite precise control of it's physical phenomenas.

Anyway I already quoted how corrosive torpedos work and it's comparison to black holes on page 51.

PS: I don't think Arpeggio wiki is reliable enough to use her as argument if it doesn't provide quotation. I will look on it later.

The best mechanism I can think of for how corrosive torpedoes work is some sort of interaction between the weak nuclear force and the gravitational force.

Of course that would also imply a relation between the gravitational force and the electromagnetic force... which has been proven to not exist.

[Tenzen12]

I don't see how did you came to such conclusion, can you elaborate?

[kagato3]

I have always favored the theory that gravity as a force is an illusion caused by the property of mass to warp space. So what we experience as gravity is nothing more then the distortion of space time. Best way to envision it is space is like a rubber sheet and matter are objects placed on it the dents in the sheet the objects cause is gravity.

so it is most likely their weapons create the gravity by twisting space rather then the distortions of space being the byproduct.

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by synx

In the 50s we had fun things like nuclear mortars where the guys firing it was within the blast radius.

Well the main point was that they were dirty as hell. Those old fission warheads produced ridiculous amounts of radiation.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by kagato3

I have always favored the theory that gravity as a force is an illusion caused by the property of mass to warp space. So what we experience as gravity is nothing more then the distortion of space time. Best way to envision it is space is like a rubber sheet and matter are objects placed on it the dents in the sheet the objects cause is gravity.

so it is most likely their weapons create the gravity by twisting space rather then the distortions of space being the byproduct.

That sound bit farfetched to me. Gravitational force is easily measured and isn't any different than kinetic, potencial, magnetic or any other. If it is just illusion it would mean all forces are illusions as much.

Also while in our world gravitons are only hypothetical, Fog tech use them. you release gravitons you get gravitation even without needing mass that would provide it.

[EadTaes]

The reason why they wouldn't use nukes is simple, it would mean irradiation and poisoning the oceans. Everyone is talking and assuming that all the nukes that will be fired at the fog ships will have a proper thermal nuclear detonation when in reality you can expect more of lest 90% of your tactical nukes to be intercepted and destroyed before they reach their detonation point. When that happens instead of having a nuclear detonation that is "relatively" clean you end up getting a "Dirty Bomb" created by weapons grade uranium that will poison the oceans for centuries to come.

Not to mention that the fog is probably able to detect the radiation from the nuclear weapons, just like they can detect that gunzon was hiding 1 corrosive torpedo among a swam of conventional weapons hoping that the corrosive would be able to sneak through. The Fogs response was to return fire and wipe out the swam completely. This one can speculate is because the calculation for the kline field would become impossible to do if you cannot tell which torpedo is truly the corrosive one.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

That sound bit farfetched to me. Gravitational force is easily measured and isn't any different than kinetic, potencial, magnetic or any other. If it is just illusion it would mean all forces are illusions as much.

Also while in our world gravitons are only hypothetical, Fog tech use them. you release gravitons you get gravitation even without needing mass that would provide it.

you might want to check out General relativity. In a nut shell what we see as gravity is a combination of curved space-time and inertia it works for all things in Newtonian physics even explaining a few anomalies in some of the classic equations where it brakes down like most other classic Physics is when it gets to the quantum level and currently the least understood and agreed upon of the quantum theories so far being unable to reliably link existing theories to non microscopic level events (ie theories that work for macroscopic scale events are false at microscopic levels and vies versa)

[synx]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I don't see how did you came to such conclusion, can you elaborate?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

That sound bit farfetched to me. Gravitational force is easily measured and isn't any different than kinetic, potencial, magnetic or any other. If it is just illusion it would mean all forces are illusions as much.

Also while in our world gravitons are only hypothetical, Fog tech use them. you release gravitons you get gravitation even without needing mass that would provide it.

Okay so in our universe there are four fundamentals forces of interaction. (Well actually 3.5, I'll get to that later.) These are in order of strongest to weakest.

1. Strong nuclear (10^38 times that of gravity)
2. Weak nuclear (10^36 times that of gravity)
3. Electromagnetic (10^25 times that of gravity)
4. Gravitational (1)

Of these 4, electromagnetism and gravity have infinite range. Since electromagnetism cancels out for large bodies due to having an equal attractive and repulsive force, gravity is the dominant force acting on large bodies.

At high energies ( ~100 GeV) the Weak force and the Electromagnetic force merge together to become a single force, the electroweak force. The weak force is responsible for nuclear decay and nuclear fusion. Through this combined electroweak force, we have a process where mass -> energy following the formula E=MC^2 for objects at rest and 0K. Note that this process produces photons, the mediator of the electromagnetic force.

Now from the given liner notes, we have a Thanatonium decay reaction producing gravitons. For this to occur, we must have a process that takes mass -> gravitons. This implies a relation between the weak force and the gravitational force. However, since we know that the weak force and the electromagnetic force combine into a single force at higher energies, we get that there is a relation between the gravitational force and the electromagnetic force.

This interaction implies that there is a process we can take where photon -> graviton.

[synx]

Originally Posted by EadTaes

The reason why they wouldn't use nukes is simple, it would mean irradiation and poisoning the oceans. Everyone is talking and assuming that all the nukes that will be fired at the fog ships will have a proper thermal nuclear detonation when in reality you can expect more of lest 90% of your tactical nukes to be intercepted and destroyed before they reach their detonation point. When that happens instead of having a nuclear detonation that is "relatively" clean you end up getting a "Dirty Bomb" created by weapons grade uranium that will poison the oceans for centuries to come.

Not to mention that the fog is probably able to detect the radiation from the nuclear weapons, just like they can detect that gunzon was hiding 1 corrosive torpedo among a swam of conventional weapons hoping that the corrosive would be able to sneak through. The Fogs response was to return fire and wipe out the swam completely. This one can speculate is because the calculation for the kline field would become impossible to do if you cannot tell which torpedo is truly the corrosive one.

I hope you realize that coal burning plants release more radiation each year into the atmosphere than every nuclear test to date combined. Coal has surprisingly large amount of Uranium contained within. If coal plants functioned with the same radiation restrictions as nuclear power plants, every single one of them would be shut down. In fact, there was an incident where a nearby nuclear power plant downwind had to SCRAM their reactor due to the radiation of the smoke. It took them months to figure out that the coal ash was what was setting all their radiation detectors off.

We also have evidence that the Fog in fact, CANNOT detect which torpedo is the corrosive one, or else you know, Gunzou's entire plan to sink Kirishima and Haruna wouldn't have worked.

[EadTaes]

Originally Posted by synx

I hope you realize that coal burning plants release more radiation each year into the atmosphere than every nuclear test to date combined. Coal has surprisingly large amount of Uranium contained within. If coal plants functioned with the same radiation restrictions as nuclear power plants, every single one of them would be shut down. In fact, there was an incident where a nearby nuclear power plant downwind had to SCRAM their reactor due to the radiation of the smoke. It took them months to figure out that the coal ash was what was setting all their radiation detectors off.

We also have evidence that the Fog in fact, CANNOT detect which torpedo is the corrosive one, or else you know, Gunzou's entire plan to sink Kirishima and Haruna wouldn't have worked.

Weapons grade uranium and natural uranium are not the same. As for coal I am aware of that.

As fog that fog not knowing which is the corrosive torpedo I did not contradict that. In fact I stated very clearly that they probably used large AoE weapons of their own to wipe out the whole swarm to eliminate the threat because it could potentially cause them problems with the kline field calculations if they do not know which is the corrosive warhead. Just saying they would probably threat the a nuclear warhead in much the same way.

Also as to why they are not using nukes, if that the sea levels have risen. Normally nuclear reactors are built near major water sources for cooling, which would likely make most of the worlds current nuclear reactor now be under water in the world of Arpeggio.

When fukushima had it's melt down I remember seeing a map of all reactors in Japan and almost all of them if not all from what I recall were next to the sea. In Canada on the other hand from my knowledge most of the reactors are located in Ontario, which is pretty high compared to see level. I cannot really speak for other countries however. *Note not an expert on topography just my speculation of what I would expect*

In addition to the fact that lots and lots of reactors are underwater thus reducing the ability produce weapons grade uranium, you have to consider that uranium it's self would become much harder to get by since some of the mining sites are also bound to get flooded and since some nations have very poor uranium supplies that they need to import uranium today just to supply their current reactors to provide energy for civil use, one such nation I know is in that situation is India.

So if you consider that the fog will destroy the majority of your weapons before they can detonate, that those weapons would turn into dirty bombs poisoning the oceans, that getting new weapons would be difficult. You can conclude that nuclear weapons as an offensive option against the fog would not be cost effective and none viable as a long term strategy.

[Tim yy]

Originally Posted by synx

We also have evidence that the Fog in fact, CANNOT detect which torpedo is the corrosive one, or else you know, Gunzou's entire plan to sink Kirishima and Haruna wouldn't have worked.

Nah, Kirishima and Haruna did detect the corrosive torpedo among the regular torpedoes and they were able to intercept it. The second corrosive torpedo was fired by Hakugie with the absolute perfect timing, right at the point when the SGC has suppressed gravitons into full degeneracy. Both of them did detected it but they had absolute no time to respond or to close their Klein Field because all their processing power were used to suppress spatial distortion caused by the SGC.

[synx]

Originally Posted by Tim yy

Nah, Kirishima and Haruna did detect the corrosive torpedo among the regular torpedoes and they were able to intercept it. The second corrosive torpedo was fired by Hakugie with the absolute perfect timing, right at the point when the SGC has suppressed gravitons into full degeneracy. Both of them did detected it but they had absolute no time to respond or to close their Klein Field because all their processing power were used to suppress spatial distortion caused by the SGC.

That's my point, if they could detect Thanatonium with sufficient accuracy to point out which torpedoes were the corrosive ones, then they would have been able to tell that there was another Thanatonium source coming from behind the torpedo swarm. That they didn't implies that they do not have the sensor resolution to do so.

[synx]

Originally Posted by EadTaes

Weapons grade uranium and natural uranium are not the same. As for coal I am aware of that.

As fog that fog not knowing which is the corrosive torpedo I did not contradict that. In fact I stated very clearly that they probably used large AoE weapons of their own to wipe out the whole swarm to eliminate the threat because it could potentially cause them problems with the kline field calculations if they do not know which is the corrosive warhead. Just saying they would probably threat the a nuclear warhead in much the same way.

Also as to why they are not using nukes, if that the sea levels have risen. Normally nuclear reactors are built near major water sources for cooling, which would likely make most of the worlds current nuclear reactor now be under water in the world of Arpeggio.

When fukushima had it's melt down I remember seeing a map of all reactors in Japan and almost all of them if not all from what I recall were next to the sea. In Canada on the other hand from my knowledge most of the reactors are located in Ontario, which is pretty high compared to see level. I cannot really speak for other countries however. *Note not an expert on topography just my speculation of what I would expect*

In addition to the fact that lots and lots of reactors are underwater thus reducing the ability produce weapons grade uranium, you have to consider that uranium it's self would become much harder to get by since some of the mining sites are also bound to get flooded and since some nations have very poor uranium supplies that they need to import uranium today just to supply their current reactors to provide energy for civil use, one such nation I know is in that situation is India.

So if you consider that the fog will destroy the majority of your weapons before they can detonate, that those weapons would turn into dirty bombs poisoning the oceans, that getting new weapons would be difficult. You can conclude that nuclear weapons as an offensive option against the fog would not be cost effective and none viable as a long term strategy.

You are vastly overestimating the radioactivity of U-235/Pu-239. Take a 10kg mass of Pu-239 (far more radioactive than U-235), then take a 10kg mass of Pu-239 fission products. The 10kg of Pu-239 fission products will be FAR more radioactive than your 10kg of Pu-239.

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by EadTaes

The reason why they wouldn't use nukes is simple, it would mean irradiation and poisoning the oceans. Everyone is talking and assuming that all the nukes that will be fired at the fog ships will have a proper thermal nuclear detonation when in reality you can expect more of lest 90% of your tactical nukes to be intercepted and destroyed before they reach their detonation point. When that happens instead of having a nuclear detonation that is "relatively" clean you end up getting a "Dirty Bomb" created by weapons grade uranium that will poison the oceans for centuries to come.

You mean like numerous nuclear accidents, ranging from leaks, dirty bomb testing or mishaps leading to unintentional dumping of the equivalent of multi-megaton yield weapon grade plutonium and uranium all over the world to date. One wonders why we're not all dead yet and why aren't our oceans glowing. Or more likely, you're overestimating the pollutive potential of U-235 based weapons.

This is really being overrated. Even if you required one 50 megaton bomb to each Fog capital ship, the nuclear material being used is insignificant in terms of range of area pollution.

And this is all also assuming that you think governments are not willing to risk some fallout to combat the greatest threat to mankind in history. From a economic and political point of view, better to deal with radiation poisoning for a hundred million people, and poverty & hunger from reduced ocean produce, than lose control over the world's sea and airspaces.

[DLRevan]

Originally Posted by synx

That's my point, if they could detect Thanatonium with sufficient accuracy to point out which torpedoes were the corrosive ones, then they would have been able to tell that there was another Thanatonium source coming from behind the torpedo swarm. That they didn't implies that they do not have the sensor resolution to do so.

But possibly because they were focusing on calculations for the SGC. The scene is ambiguous enough that we can't be sure. If they have the capability to detect thanatonium all the time, they would know that there was one present even behind the swarm. They didn't, so it implies that their sensor efficiency had degraded.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by synx

That's my point, if they could detect Thanatonium with sufficient accuracy to point out which torpedoes were the corrosive ones, then they would have been able to tell that there was another Thanatonium source coming from behind the torpedo swarm. That they didn't implies that they do not have the sensor resolution to do so.

Or Thanatonium warheads aren't detectable until armed. Or the missile pod is shielded. The swarm also was full of sensor decoys so the issue could be not that it was impossible to pin point but there wasn't enough time to do so. So there is another problem with useing nukes to get them close enough to be effective in posablity hitting a fog ship you're going to need to get to a range that would threaten to catch the crew In the blast as well.