Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Crontica

Madoka's Endgame Spreadsheet.

I'm gunning for the "Morning Lescue" ending myself.

disclaimer: Just kidding

[Moridin]

Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra

True, but knowing how someone moves means being able to make counter-measures/ exploit their movement.

Kyuuby has an end goal in sight and he wouldn't just grant/help a person obtain a power he thought might jeopardize his plan. He likely has Homura's entire time loop figured out and believes that anything she does on her own is futile.

Humans can't imitate nature, but by knowing it's properties and characteristics we can direct the elements to produce energy for us. This is what I think Kyubey has in store for Homura and her time travel power.

All goes back to what I said about Homura being in a hamster wheel :P

You are basing your agrument on the assumption that QB can figure out in what ways homura can change the timeloop.
Sorry, i do not remember when, but i know that QB has stated that he can not understand people's actions since he does not understand feelings. Also, it was only QB in T1 that was making the decision to grant her her wish, and he was doing it using assumptions he based on homura's personality from T1.
The only way left would be for him to analyze every single action that is possible during the timeloops and see how they would affect the outcome of the loop, and then repeat that for the infinit amount of starting conditions (i. e. different homuras). Irrelevant of how much processing power QB has, this is impossible.

This means that the opposite must be true; That QB can not calculate the outcome of granting this wish to homura. Therefore it is possible for homuras skill to directly, or inderictly, create timelines that does not favor QB's goal.

[Triple_R]

People hoping for a Morning Rescue End might get a chuckle out of this.

[ThereminVox]

With all the Eva comparisons, I'm never going to be able to see the LCL sea and not think of a world flooded with MORNING RESCUE again.

[Grey]

This episode was pretty cool. It's the only one I watched too.

Maybe I'll watch some of the earlier episodes. I think I'm getting used to the art style.

[Jimmy C]

Kyubei's mistake with Homura is actually twofold. The first one, everyone has already pointed out, he didn't expect Homura to be able to rewind time repeatedly. The second was something even less expected, that no one has pointed out yet. Homura saw Madoka turning into a witch after defeating WN. Without that, Homura might have never added opposing Kyubei to her list of actions to protect Madoka.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Moridin

You are basing your agrument on the assumption that QB can figure out in what ways homura can change the timeloop.
Sorry, i do not remember when, but i know that QB has stated that he can not understand people's actions since he does not understand feelings. Also, it was only QB in T1 that was making the decision to grant her her wish, and he was doing it using assumptions he based on homura's personality from T1.
The only way left would be for him to analyze every single action that is possible during the timeloops and see how they would affect the outcome of the loop, and then repeat that for the infinit amount of starting conditions (i. e. different homuras). Irrelevant of how much processing power QB has, this is impossible.

This means that the opposite must be true; That QB can not calculate the outcome of granting this wish to homura. Therefore it is possible for homuras skill to directly, or inderictly, create timelines that does not favor QB's goal.

Being unable to understand feelings does not mean he is unable to understand actions. Kyubey planned for Kyoko to try turning Oktavia back to Sayaka and fail so that Homura will be left alone on Walpurgis Night with Madoka. Regardless of emotion, Kyubey does have a notion of what is possible and impossible to accomplish.

[Jimmy C]

I just found out from elsewhere, there's a small but significant addition to the Nicovideo stream version of ep10. The name of Madoka's witch form. It's Kriemhild Gretchen

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

The second was something even less expected, that no one has pointed out yet. Homura saw Madoka turning into a witch after defeating WN. Without that, Homura might have never added opposing Kyubei to her list of actions to protect Madoka.

No. The idea is Homura will eventually find out Kyubey is responsible. Should Homura have not seen Madoka transform into a witch, Homura would have still reset time. Given as many tries as required, Homura would have eventually suspected and deduced Kyubey's secret, if Kyubey did not explicitly admit to his intentions himself.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I just found out from elsewhere, there's a small but significant addition to the Nicovideo stream version of ep10. The name of Madoka's witch form. It's Kriemhild Gretchen

What an intriguing name. It goes right back to Faust.

Beyond that, Kriemhild is the name of a central character in the old epic poem Nibelungenlied. Her first love in that poem is a warrior named Siegfried, who had special powers of defense, but who eventually died anyway. And he was killed by a thrown spear, no less...

Some images connected to that poem and Kriemhild that I think might raise some eyebrows here...

Spoiler for Kriemhild/Madoka comparison:

I think I see part of what inspired Sayaka's puella magi character design (Siegfried's cloak is a bit more pronounced on a different image with him).


Gen has really done his homework here. I'm quite impressed.

[Shadow5YA]

So does that make Homura the Faust to Madoka as Gretchen?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

So does that make Homura the Faust to Madoka as Gretchen?

That would be my guess...

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That would be my guess...

Then Homura is a complex issue. While Faust did make a deal with the devil, he did ascend to heaven at the very end instead of being forced to serve Mephistopheles in hell. If this is true to Faust's story, then Homura should be saved in the end. However, only Faust's deal with the devil is well-known, so some may assume that Faust loses his soul to the devil.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Then Homura is a complex issue. While Faust did make a deal with the devil, he did ascend to heaven at the very end instead of being forced to serve Mephistopheles in hell. If this is true to Faust's story, then Homura should be saved in the end. However, only Faust's deal with the devil is well-known, so some may assume that Faust loses his soul to the devil.

Gretchen is also saved by her innocence!!!

*excited*

So is Madoka's illegitimate child with Homura a symbolic representation of her innocence / ideals? She "kills" her child to become a mahou shoujo, but in the end redeems herself by deciding to live by her ideals going forward and "ascends" to "heaven".

So. Excited.

[Dawnbringerz]

In Nico Stream, not only Witch:Madoka's name was added, but her form was changed too.

Spoiler for TV:

Spoiler for Nico:

What's with that tree!?


edit: Ah, I got it. It was Shaft's mistake in the TV. Witch:Madoka was supposed to be on the opposite side. lol

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by taofd

Gretchen is also saved by her innocence!!!

*excited*

So is Madoka's illegitimate child with Homura a symbolic representation of her innocence / ideals? She "kills" her child to become a mahou shoujo, but in the end redeems herself by deciding to live by her ideals going forward and "ascends" to "heaven".

So. Excited.

Your interpretation of it sounds pretty good to me.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I just found out from elsewhere, there's a small but significant addition to the Nicovideo stream version of ep10. The name of Madoka's witch form. It's Kriemhild Gretchen

Finally, they posted up that grand episode.

[Jimmy C]

It looks like they're trying to fix a few drawing errors there. There was a giant treee during the Walpurgis attack. So they decided to put it back in. Second, Homura and Kyubei are on a slanted platform. Yet, the platform is view from both sides several times, and you can see Gretchen in the background almost all the time, as if there was one on either side. I don't think they were entirely successful yet.

[Child_of_Sierra]

@ Moridin: Shadow5YA pretty much answered for me here. I would also add that while Kyubey may not know the exact way an MG may use their powers he can still detect their magical potential before the contract.

He should be aware that Homura can never match Walpurgis Night by herself. The difference in strength is shown by the various timeline replays.

The times Walpurgis got defeated involved a mahou shoujo Madoka.

In Kyubey's eyes the cold logic of Homura (valued at say 10 in power) losing to a Walpurgis (100 power) will never change. As far as I could tell her power does not increase with each repetition so she will always be an underdog here.

She may have unlimited time but the resources she can gather in each repeat are limited. She can't forage for higher end weapons from far away because she always has to stalk Madoka. There is only a limited number of witches she can kill to recharge her soul gem as well. Recruiting the other 3 MG's seem impossible due to their own conflicting beliefs and personalities.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

with all these faust, gretchen stuff, it's possible that we'd get a happy/satisfying end. XDD it would also mean a madohomu end..XDDDD