Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[azul120]

He is pretty stupid and irrational though.

[Knightrunner]

he does act emo when he wants to die or get punished

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

he does act emo when he wants to die or get punished

Well shit, if I lost everything I would turn emo too.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by darkdarkdark

Well shit, if I lost everything I would turn emo too.

Except that he was like that well before he lost everything, or even anything for that matter.

[darkdarkdark]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Except that he was like that well before he lost everything, or even anything for that matter.

I thought he was arrogant and a bit of a douche, but he was alright as a character.

[azul120]

You mean before he killed Genbu?

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by azul120

You mean before he killed Genbu?

Before he killed Genbu he was prouder and didn't have the suicidial streak. After that, which isn't really losing since he did the deed himself, he gave up everything of his own will.

[azul120]

Yeah. I remember those sound/picture episodes well, where he was confrontational towards Lelouch. Sort of puts a wrench in his sensitive, mild-mannered guy image.

During that "Stinkin' Brit!" flashback at the beginning of R2 17, all I could think of was how he would end up selling out that same person, Lelouch, to public enemy #1, Emperor Chuck, and think, "Man, what a dipshit."

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by azul120

Yeah. I remember those sound/picture episodes well, where he was confrontational towards Lelouch. Sort of puts a wrench in his sensitive, mild-mannered guy image.

During that "Stinkin' Brit!" flashback at the beginning of R2 17, all I could think of was how he would end up selling out that same person, Lelouch, to public enemy #1, Emperor Chuck, and think, "Man, what a dipshit."

The thing is, that is who he was before the tragedies of his life shifted him around. I've mentioned this before, but if the events around them hadn't played out as they did, then Lelouch would have likely grown up holding Suzaku's "work within the system" philosophy, while Suzaku would hold Lelouch's "fight the system" philosophy.

This as well applies to their personalities. Lelouch was originally a gentle person, but the murder of his mother and his and Nunally's banishment forced him to grow up into a person who believed that you had to be ruthless to survive, even when he didn't want to believe it, and his heart struggled with the concept, resulting in his atempts to play the villain as he did.

Similarly, Suzaku originally believed in some shonen-esque fight-with-your-heart-and-to-hell-with-the-rules ideal, but killing Genbu, a real person and his own father of all things, left him with a deep wound in his psyche and an ugly feeling in his heart, and the fact that no one punished him (like how the shonen hero always gets off for all the carnage he causes) made him feel horrified by the idea of being able to kill without punishment, thus he tried desperately to be the mild, submissive "good boy" that follows the rules, even though, like Lelouch, his heart strained at the concept. This is best shown in the Japanese language version when Mao reveals how he killed Genbu. Suzaku starts alternating between "ore" and "boku" which are different ways of saying "I" in Japanese. The former is very masculine, while the latter is less so. This is Suzaku having a very severe identity crisis.

EDIT: As for Luciano, while I can't say I'll be joining any fanclubs for the guy, I can't say I hated him either. To me he was just too much of a straight Bastard-put-here-just-to-be-a-bastard-and-get-killed-so-the-fans-go-Yay for me to really hate him as a person. I dislike him yes, but what I disliked more was that R2 was "reducing itself" to employing a character like him, especially when the series seemed to make a point of trying to portray everyone as human to at least some degree in the first season.

In truth, I tend to think that he was one of the most powerful members of the Rounds, losing out only to Suzaku and Bismarck in terms of skill, as it better justifies his presence despite his personality.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

The thing is, that is who he was before the tragedies of his life shifted him around. I've mentioned this before, but if the events around them hadn't played out as they did, then Lelouch would have likely grown up holding Suzaku's "work within the system" philosophy, while Suzaku would hold Lelouch's "fight the system" philosophy.

This as well applies to their personalities. Lelouch was originally a gentle person, but the murder of his mother and his and Nunally's banishment forced him to grow up into a person who believed that you had to be ruthless to survive, even when he didn't want to believe it, and his heart struggled with the concept, resulting in his atempts to play the villain as he did.

Similarly, Suzaku originally believed in some shonen-esque fight-with-your-heart-and-to-hell-with-the-rules ideal, but killing Genbu, a real person and his own father of all things, left him with a deep wound in his psyche and an ugly feeling in his heart, and the fact that no one punished him (like how the shonen hero always gets off for all the carnage he causes) made him feel horrified by the idea of being able to kill without punishment, thus he tried desperately to be the mild, submissive "good boy" that follows the rules, even though, like Lelouch, his heart strained at the concept. This is best shown in the Japanese language version when Mao reveals how he killed Genbu. Suzaku starts alternating between "ore" and "boku" which are different ways of saying "I" in Japanese. The former is very masculine, while the latter is less so. This is Suzaku having a very severe identity crisis.

EDIT: As for Luciano, while I can't say I'll be joining any fanclubs for the guy, I can't say I hated him either. To me he was just too much of a straight Bastard-put-here-just-to-be-a-bastard-and-get-killed-so-the-fans-go-Yay for me to really hate him as a person. I dislike him yes, but what I disliked more was that R2 was "reducing itself" to employing a character like him, especially when the series seemed to make a point of trying to portray everyone as human to at least some degree in the first season.

In truth, I tend to think that he was one of the most powerful members of the Rounds, losing out only to Suzaku and Bismarck in terms of skill, as it better justifies his presence despite his personality.

Code Geass tried to make it's characters seem human?

Is this the same Code Geas where the hero basically comes off as worse than the Axs Powers? Is this the same Code Geass which protrayed the Britannians as goofy racist people so people don't give a crap when Lelouch "heroically" tells them to kill themselves? At one point the hero brainwashes thousands of people so that he can use them to basically kill themselves for him.

It's pretty clear that neither Taniguchi or Okouchi saw the world of Code Geass as a fleshed out world or they wouldn't have witten Lelouch as the bastard he was. Compare that to say the Wheel of Time where you saw that Jordan actually did see the world he created as a fleshed out world, he wrote the characters as if they where actually alive, and talked about tragedies as if they actually happened in real life.

Now compare that to Lelouch killing 100,000 innocent people by blowing up Mt. Fuji. With Lelouch Taniguchi and Okouchi still saw him as the hero even after the atrocities where commited simply because they never cared about the atrocities that where commited. I cared more about Code Geass than they did.

[azul120]

Lelouch was no saint, but worse than the Axis Powers? That's a little hyperbolic.

And there's no comparison between Lelouch before and during Zero Requiem, which was basically him in full-on Thanatos Gambit mode, having passed the Despair Event Horizon.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by azul120

Lelouch was no saint, but worse than the Axis Powers? That's a little hyperbolic.

And there's no comparison between Lelouch before and during Zero Requiem, which was basically him in full-on Thanatos Gambit mode, having passed the Despair Event Horizon.

Nazi Germany didn't brainwash people so that they would fly on top of a Volcano than have the Volcano blow up killing everyone in the surrounding area. Though Imperial Japan did come pretty close when they gave the Okinawans grenades and told them that the Americans would rape them so they should kill themselves while killing the Americans which caused the mass suicides of Okinawans because they didn't know how to use the grenades.

Frankly I don't care about stuff like Xanatos Gambit and Despair Event Horizon, a bastard is still a bastard and Taniguchi and Okouchi trying to pass off that bastard as a hero tells me that they never cared about the world of Code Geass.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Nazi Germany didn't brainwash people so that they would fly on top of a Volcano than have the Volcano blow up killing everyone in the surrounding area. Though Imperial Japan did come pretty close when they gave the Okinawans grenades and told them that the Americans would rape them so they should kill themselves while killing the Americans which caused the mass suicides of Okinawans because they didn't know how to use the grenades.

Frankly I don't care about stuff like Xanatos Gambit and Despair Event Horizon, a bastard is still a bastard and Taniguchi and Okouchi trying to pass off that bastard as a hero tells me that they never cared about the world of Code Geass.

What I meant was that Lelouch only became that crazy and desperate for an excuse to die while changing the world, a la Suzaku, after passing the Despair Event Horizon with the betrayal from the Black Knights.

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

It's pretty clear that neither Taniguchi or Okouchi saw the world of Code Geass as a fleshed out world or they wouldn't have witten Lelouch as the bastard he was.

I don't think we did watch the same Code Geass. In the Code Geass I watched Lelouch's character was written as a complete ass hat.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Nazi Germany didn't brainwash people so that they would fly on top of a Volcano than have the Volcano blow up killing everyone in the surrounding area. Though Imperial Japan did come pretty close when they gave the Okinawans grenades and told them that the Americans would rape them so they should kill themselves while killing the Americans which caused the mass suicides of Okinawans because they didn't know how to use the grenades.

Frankly I don't care about stuff like Xanatos Gambit and Despair Event Horizon, a bastard is still a bastard and Taniguchi and Okouchi trying to pass off that bastard as a hero tells me that they never cared about the world of Code Geass.

i have to disagree with you
if only because trying to compare anything to what Nazi Germany used to do is unacceptable as far as i'm concerned

i agree that Lelouch was a complete bastard during the last arc, and in some cases before it
i agree that he wasn't a hero so much as a visionary villain with awesome leather pants

but not even close to what the Axis powers did

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Zetsubou Bunny

I don't think we did watch the same Code Geass. In the Code Geass I watched Lelouch's character was written as a complete ass hat.

A complete Asshat who the writers have everyone agree with. You would be amazed at what some writers will try to portray as right.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Code Geass tried to make it's characters seem human?

Is this the same Code Geas where the hero basically comes off as worse than the Axs Powers? Is this the same Code Geass which protrayed the Britannians as goofy racist people so people don't give a crap when Lelouch "heroically" tells them to kill themselves? At one point the hero brainwashes thousands of people so that he can use them to basically kill themselves for him.

Clovis experimented on humans and ordered a massacre. He also loved his family. He only became that person because he left his family to try and honor two deceased siblings.

Cornelia was the same. An aggressive military leader, who expected much from her subordinates and also ordered a massacre. She as well loved her family and didn't like taking credit for an accomplishment her subordinates make.

Jeremiah was an extremely racist thug. He was also loyal to the point of being willing to die for his charge, even after that charge effectively ruined his life and cost him his very humanity.

Does this make them good people? No. Does this make them more than one-dimendional foils? I happen to think so.

As for Lelouch, this depends on how you interpret his character. I happen to follow the "closet philanthropist" interpretation and so do not consider him even remotely on par with the Axis Powers and can infact say he was heroic. As well, I was comparing things based on the first season (as I said above). I agree that ZR was a senseless atrocity (both in and out of story) and by all rights should be called Character Derailment, only escaping the label because the creators insist it isn't.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

It's pretty clear that neither Taniguchi or Okouchi saw the world of Code Geass as a fleshed out world or they wouldn't have witten Lelouch as the bastard he was. Compare that to say the Wheel of Time where you saw that Jordan actually did see the world he created as a fleshed out world, he wrote the characters as if they where actually alive, and talked about tragedies as if they actually happened in real life.

Never read Wheel of Time, but they did infact take steps to flesh out the CG world. Perhaps not to the extent others fictional series do, but there was a fairly rich history and good amount of side material.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Now compare that to Lelouch killing 100,000 innocent people by blowing up Mt. Fuji. With Lelouch Taniguchi and Okouchi still saw him as the hero even after the atrocities where commited simply because they never cared about the atrocities that where commited. I cared more about Code Geass than they did.

Again, I was referencing the first season, not the second. As far as I'm concerned, Megiddo is the real second season.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Clovis experimented on humans and ordered a massacre. He also loved his family. He only became that person because he left his family to try and honor two deceased siblings.

Cornelia was the same. An aggressive military leader, who expected much from her subordinates and also ordered a massacre. She as well loved her family and didn't like taking credit for an accomplishment her subordinates make.

Jeremiah was an extremely racist thug. He was also loyal to the point of being willing to die for his charge, even after that charge effectively ruined his life and cost him his very humanity.

Does this make them good people? No. Does this make them more than one-dimendional foils? I happen to think so.

As for Lelouch, this depends on how you interpret his character. I happen to follow the "closet philanthropist" interpretation and so do not consider him even remotely on par with the Axis Powers and can infact say he was heroic. As well, I was comparing things based on the first season (as I said above). I agree that ZR was a senseless atrocity (both in and out of story) and by all rights should be called Character Derailment, only escaping the label because the creators insist it isn't.



Never read Wheel of Time, but they did infact take steps to flesh out the CG world. Perhaps not to the extent others fictional series do, but there was a fairly rich history and good amount of side material.



Again, I was referencing the first season, not the second. As far as I'm concerned, Megiddo is the real second season.

I don't think we were watching the same Code Geass, you and I....

1) She expected much from her subordinates: How does this make her a bad person? O_o She expected that of her people exactly because she was a good leader, and a professional soldier. It however, does not mean that she doesn't give a shit about them like say Lelouch had his people commit suicide en-masse. See ep 25 where she shows concern for the guy who ends up jumping in front of Todou.

2) She ordered a massacre: LOL?! Ok, let's see...Her first mission in Area 11, the JLF open fire on her knightmare and show no signs of surrender, so she kills them all. Completely justified, it's not her fault those JLF were idiots and decided to take on a knightmare with SMGs. Now, in Saitama ghetto she recreates the conditions as Shinjiku, but she has legitimate reason to be there. a) The people in charge were harboring terrorists, so they were swept aside (treason is punishable by death) b) the terrorists who surrendered and she had them killed by her personal guard - again completely justified. These guys are TERRORIST who were using Britannian frames, the Geneva convention does not apply to them, and besides, combatants caught wearing enemy uniforms (in this case Knightmare frames) and operating as part of the enemy for sabotage purposes are considered spies and can rightfully be executed. see: German infiltrators during the Battle of the Bugle.

Cornelia has no problem taking prisoners when they abide by the rules of war (see Chinese Federation forces in ep 21)

[Revolutionist]

What's wrong with that?

Terrorists aren't upstanding, productive members of any society. As the name implies they use terror and underhanded tactics to achieve their goals, usually targeting civilians. More often than not their victims end up being the very same people they're supposed to be fighting for...

The people who harbor and enable these people are no better.

There's nothing wrong with showing them no mercy in my book.

[Nogitsune]

Now we've reached the point where we can't say whether genocide is right or wrong? I like relativism, it's interesting, but I know I have a pretty firm opinion on the matter.

If Cornelia lived in our world, in our society, I would agree - terrorists need to be dealt with, and the ones harbouring them are criminals of the worst kind. But we are not talking about our world.
Britannia is ruthless and tramples the weak without mercy. It's an enemy that can not be defeated by conventional means, and those who suffer at its hands are willing to bend their morals because they are that desperate. If you drive people into a corner, they will react accordiningly. You can't expect them to just shut up and take it.
Cornelia created a second Shinjuku - and as much as I like Clovis, most of the people he ordered to be killed were neither terrorists nor supporters of terrorists. There were quite a few small children among the victims, and elderly people who probably didn't do anything more criminal than falling asleep in their chair.
I highly doubt Cornelia nicely evacuated these kinds of people.

Cornelia believes in breaking people's spirits completely before accepting them as part of the empire. She and Schneizel have a discussion about this in Stage 0.884 - Schneizel tells her that those conquered at least need to be able to provide for themselves, but Cornelia is of the opinion that Britannia can do that... after they have lost their will to fight, or do anything at all, really.
She states herself that discriminating against Numbers is part of Britannia's policy, and she shows that very nicely in her treatment of Suzaku, amongst other things.

[Oh, and yay for the mention of Clovis earlier!]