The Ontology of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

There are no paradoxes in Haruhi.

Except the mole thing.

And the whole "Kyon giving Haruhi the idea to go to North High" fiasco in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody.

Those are not paradoxes in the sense the word is normally used regarding time travel. A temporal paradox is an event that would prevent itself from happening: killing you parents before you are born, preventing you from existing, so you couldn't kill them, so they'd survive, so you would exist, etc, etc... They are self-contradictory.

The events you listed are self-confirming events. The events further down the timeline could not have occurred without the earlier events, which only occurred because of the later events. These are commonly referred to as "causal loops" and should not be called paradoxes if only to prevent further confusion.

The thing that started in Volume 4 and ended in the prologue of Volume 7 is an example of another causal loop.

[Joe4evr]

Originally Posted by Heatth

I don't remenber Intrigues being paradoxal. Care to explain?

(what is "fiasco" BTW? We have the same word in portuguese, but it don't seens to fit here)

"Fiasco" means something has gone horribly wrong. Intrigues, well...

Spoiler for Intrigues:

Kyon meets Mikuru who's been sent a week (I think) into the past. Both Mikurus don't know it, but the one from a little into the future is supposed to be a double so the current Mikuru doesn't get kidnapped by the Anti-SOS-Dan (which we meet for the first time in Intrigues). Kyon is also given instructions by adult Mikuru, to prvent the Anti-SOS-Dan from changing the past.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Joe4evr

"Fiasco" means something has gone horribly wrong. Intrigues, well...

Spoiler for Intrigues:

Kyon meets Mikuru who's been sent a week (I think) into the past. Both Mikurus don't know it, but the one from a little into the future is supposed to be a double so the current Mikuru doesn't get kidnapped by the Anti-SOS-Dan (which we meet for the first time in Intrigues). Kyon is also given instructions by adult Mikuru, to prvent the Anti-SOS-Dan from changing the past.

Oh, "fiasco" is that in portuguese too (I didn't understand how it apply to Banboo Leaf, then).

About the spoiler. It is not paradoxal. It is just a closed loop.

I had a discussion with Sute about this some time ago and I think he could explain it better. Anyway, there is no problem on the "acausality" so there is no paradox on a closed loop.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by Sute443

The events you listed are self-confirming events. The events further down the timeline could not have occurred without the earlier events, which only occurred because of the later events. These are commonly referred to as "causal loops" and should not be called paradoxes if only to prevent further confusion.

... Have you ever heard of an ontological paradox?

An ontological paradox is a paradox of time travel that questions the existence and creation of information and objects that travel in time. It is very closely related to the predestination paradox and usually occurs at the same time.

Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling his role in creating history, not changing it. The Novikov self-consistency principle proposes that contradictory causal loops cannot form, but that consistent ones can.

However, a scenario can occur where items or information are passed from the future to the past, which then become the same items or information that are subsequently passed back. This not only creates a loop, but a situation where these items have no discernible origin. Physical items are even more problematic than pieces of information, since they should ordinarily age and increase in entropy according to the Second law of thermodynamics. But if they age by any nonzero amount at each cycle, they cannot be the same item to be sent back in time, creating a contradiction unless it is a reproduced item such as a seed, spore, etc.

This is specifically what happens when it comes to the knowledge of Mikuru's mole.

I will, however, admit that the instance I mentioned for Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is predestination(the "causal loop" you mentioned), not ontological. Forgive my mistake there.

[Alesiopdv]

Really? What about Kyon

Spoiler for Vanishment:

having to remember the EXACT words he say to himself when he saves himself from Asakura at the end of Vanishment? Words he KNOWS beacuase he heard his future self, which knowed the words from hearing from his future self when wound who in turn......... OUCH My Head!

[Sute443]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

... Have you ever heard of an ontological paradox?

I have, and if you'd specified ontological I wouldn't have taken any issue with it. My problem was merely that when people mention paradoxes in a time travel context, the grandfather paradox is what comes to mind, not the ontological paradox. Clarity is important, especially when dealing with subjects that tend to confuse people.

You may wish to check the Predestination Paradox page, as it describes the exact same process that would apply to knowledge of Mikuru's mole as well. The two are similar enough that trying to say it only fits into one of them feels like splitting hairs.

Oh, and Alesiopdv, another aspect of what you brought up is that

Spoiler:

Kyon is only alive because his future self came back and saved himself.

[dragon4dudes]

Some stuff is essentially a time paradox (or whatever the technically correct term is...)

Spoiler:

ie. the star shaped mole, Kyon saving his past, vol. 7

[Takamura Mamoru]

Reviving the thread, I forgot that I actually did a complete analysis of the second opening, which I don't think anyone has done.

Spoiler for Op:

Character introduction

Haruhi:
- Closed Space
- Shameless
- Director
- Leader of the Brigade
- Ponytail
- Shinjin
- Self-righteousness

Kyon:
- Key for everything
- John Smith
- Wallet of the Brigade
- Mere member
- Ordinary
- feels troublesome for anything

Mikuru:
- Fighting waitress
- Mega bust
- Pretty
- Matured
- Crybaby
- TPDD
- Adult

Yuki:
- Expressionless
- Complicated explanations
- Data Entity
- ?

Koizumi:
- Massive(?) Knowledge
- Cards
- Shining red ball
- Chess
- Gobang
- Esper
-

White screen:

- Muon
- Proton
- Photon
- Electron
- Up quark
- Down quark
- Charm quark
- Top quark
- Bottom quark
- Tau Neutrino
- Neutrino
- Strange quark
- Gluon
- E² = (mc²)² + (pc)²
- Electron neutrino
- Compton Scattering (formula)
- f(ε)=1/(exp((ε-μ)/kT) + 1) (Something about Fermi Gas..)

Rainbow screen:

- Out of place artifact
- Supersymmetric Grand Unified Theory
- [Sy , Sz] = Sy Sz - Sz Sy = ihSx (Pauli matrices?)
- Hodge conjecture
- Gott ist tot (God is dead - Famous phrase of Friedrich Nietzsche)
- Riemann hypothesis
- Navier-Stokes existence and smoothness
- M-theory
- Unidentified flying object
- Tsuchinoko (Snake-like mythical monster)
- P is not NP (refers to "P = NP problem")
- Extrasensory perception (ESP)
- Planck constant: h = 6.62606896(33) × 10−34 Js = 4.13566733(10) x 10−15 eV s
- d -> u + eˉ + Ve (Beta decay)
- D'où venonsnous? Que sommes-nous? Où allons-nous? (“Where Do We come from? What Are We? Where Are We Going?” – Famous painting by Paul Gauguin) (You can actually only see „sommes-nous? Qú allons-nous?” in the OP)
- Ogopogo (A lake monster, similar to Nessie)
- Yang–Mills existence and mass gap
- Wormhole

[Tabasco]

I haven't seen anything like that either, so thanks for pulling it together.

No surprises for any of the character associations, except a couple for Koizumi. What on earth is 'gobang' besides the obvious? And I think its interesting that they cast doubt on his supposed insight right in the opening credits.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

... Have you ever heard of an ontological paradox?



This is specifically what happens when it comes to the knowledge of Mikuru's mole.

I will, however, admit that the instance I mentioned for Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is predestination(the "causal loop" you mentioned), not ontological. Forgive my mistake there.

Ontological paradox is only a paradox at all because most people insist everything in time had to be linear. i.e. there is a start, middle, and an end. But the whole point with time loops is that a loop doesn't need a beginning or end. There is no RULE that states something has to come from somewhere. It just has to be consistent, it doesn't need an origin at all.

It's like how a Möbius strip has only one side. You might ask, how could a piece of paper not have a top and bottom? But a Möbius strip exists, it isn't a paradox. It is just unconventional.

[TheHaruhiIncarnate]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

... Have you ever heard of an ontological paradox?



This is specifically what happens when it comes to the knowledge of Mikuru's mole.

I will, however, admit that the instance I mentioned for Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody is predestination(the "causal loop" you mentioned), not ontological. Forgive my mistake there.

And this also explians in some funny way Koizumi eyeing Kyon's mole in the episode "Lone Island Syndrome". All this time I was SO confused on what the meaning behind Koizumi looking at a random mole on Kyon, but now I realize that was Koizumi's realization that Kyon has time traveled before. (Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody)

[keri]

Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate

And this also explians in some funny way Koizumi eyeing Kyon's mole in the episode "Lone Island Syndrome". All this time I was SO confused on what the meaning behind Koizumi looking at a random mole on Kyon, but now I realize that was Koizumi's realization that Kyon has time traveled before. (Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody)

So that's what the mole is about?!

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate

And this also explians in some funny way Koizumi eyeing Kyon's mole in the episode "Lone Island Syndrome". All this time I was SO confused on what the meaning behind Koizumi looking at a random mole on Kyon, but now I realize that was Koizumi's realization that Kyon has time traveled before. (Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody)

That's a bit of a stretch...

Heck, who am I kidding... That's a hell of a stretch... Considering this is Haruhi, I would say stranger things have happened, but they really haven't.

[keri]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

That's a bit of a stretch...

Heck, who am I kidding... That's a hell of a stretch... Considering this is Haruhi, I would say stranger things have happened, but they really haven't.

I wish we had a reason for the camera lingering so lovingly on that carefully rendered mole, though. What Kogetsu said a while back, and having it linked to the mole, is enough to get it to not be so bothersome. (Though I don't think it had anything to do with Koizumi realizing Kyon had time-travelled.)

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by keri

I wish we had a reason for the camera lingering so lovingly on that carefully rendered mole, though. What Kogetsu said a while back, and having it linked to the mole, is enough to get it to not be so bothersome. (Though I don't think it had anything to do with Koizumi realizing Kyon had time-travelled.)

Maybe they initially had the drunken scenes planned and when that fell through had to whip up something they could easily storyboard and animate over a monologue so the timing would be right. In most situations during the first season, a monologue like that would have been slimmed down. Who knows... Weird mole is weird...

[baltakatei]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Maybe they initially had the drunken scenes planned and when that fell through had to whip up something they could easily storyboard and animate over a monologue so the timing would be right. In most situations during the first season, a monologue like that would have been slimmed down. Who knows... Weird mole is weird...

So er...

Nice mole.

[TheHaruhiIncarnate]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

That's a bit of a stretch...

Heck, who am I kidding... That's a hell of a stretch... Considering this is Haruhi, I would say stranger things have happened, but they really haven't.

Well according to a time traveling theory(don't know which one though. it was mentioned here) that when an object time travels, it's not the same product as it was before, creating an anomalie on the object (mark, mole ect.) This explains Mikuru's starshaped mole and Kyon's mole.

[idiffer]

Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate

Well according to a time traveling theory(don't know which one though. it was mentioned here) that when an object time travels, it's not the same product as it was before, creating an anomalie on the object (mark, mole ect.) This explains Mikuru's starshaped mole and Kyon's mole.

so each time you timetravel, you get an anomaly? freaky...wonder why mikuru doesnt have a 3rd arm by now.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate

Well according to a time traveling theory(don't know which one though. it was mentioned here) that when an object time travels, it's not the same product as it was before, creating an anomalie on the object (mark, mole ect.) This explains Mikuru's starshaped mole and Kyon's mole.

Now that is a stretch... ^_^

Anyway. Kyon doesn't have a mole, or at least not one related to the story in any way. It's not mentioned in the novels at all. That whole take on that scene is something they made up for the anime.

[AbZeroNow]

Surprise has really got my puzzling over a few statements made by a certain Anti-SOS Dan member.

Spoiler for Surprise Chapter 5 excerpt:

Did Kuyou begin a relationship with Taniguchi because she mistook him for me? He he
he he he, why did it have to be him? It just made it harder and harder for me to decide what to do.
“Almost as if some information source had become muddled, exposing the situation to
the possibility of his interference...”
Kuyou said word-by-word:
“The probability isn't low......”
At least Nagato didn't have to expend energy to take care of you then.
“Were you affected when Nagato remade the world?”
“I wasn't changed.”
Kuyou lifted her chin, her bloodless lips continued bit-by-bit saying things that would
have made other people tongue-tied had they attempted to say them.
“Your concept of the universe is a passing mirage, but we've also begun to sense a
surprise never before seen. A world of the past overlapping with the present world. Exclusive
actions. Some areas altered. Interesting.”
“What the heck? And why did your tone change again? It really looks like your
personality changed, which reminds me of yesterday's faint smile.”
“——there is no tomorrow's today——there is no today's yesterday——there is no
yesterday's tomorrow——here.”

That information certainly puts Disappearance in a new light.

Spoiler for Chapter 5 another Kuyou excerpt:

Sasaki took aim at Kuyou's wrist and said teasingly:
“Although, since you're still wearing a watch that was a gift from him, it means you're
still a bit reluctant to part with that interesting guy who was just here, right?”
Kuyou's glance fell on her watch (it should be a fairly inexpensive model) like droplets of
ink.
“——it's something......I said I wanted to have.”
... Today, I've heard it all.
“——time isn't actually a one-way flow one can't run counter to. To engage in personal
activity on this planet, it is necessary to keep track of the fixed, objective time.”
Are you talking about the watch? It's just a some handicraft composed of springs and
gears. What determines time isn't actually the watch. What the watch does is provide a
convenient way of keeping track in a continuous stretch of human activity.
“——time is mostly randomly generated; it's hardly continuous.”
I almost cried. What was this alien trying to say?
Only it happened to stimulate Sasaki's natural curiosity.
“Kuyou-san, but then how would you explain the past and the future? Presumably not by
claiming Akashic records [Note: “Akashic” means everything under the sky or aether in Sanskrit.
Akashic records are a compendium of information encoded formlessly existing in a non-physical
plane of existence] really exist, right?”
“——time is limited.”
“What do you mean now? Based on the method of infinite descent, [Note: a method of
mathematical proof used to show that no solutions exist] how much time exists between 1
second and 2 seconds?”
“No time. However, there's no danger even if you say some time does exist.”
It would seem as if Sasaki has fallen for the bait.
“Okay— Let me put it this way. Suppose parallel worlds existed. Then according to
Everett, they can't be infinite in number?” [Note: Hugh Everett III proposed the many-worlds
interpretation in 1957 that the universe will upon observation split into many universes each
with different outcomes]
“——objects that cannot be observed do not exist.”
“Really?”
Sasaki's expression was like that of a young scientist who'd just discovered a new
phenomenon.
“——already in the records——doubt......completely non-existent.”
“So it's like this.”

I'm not sure but I think the Anthropic Principle was invoked in the middle of that. That would be an interesting echo of what Koizumi had said.

Spoiler for Disappearance and Surprise questions and thoughts.:

I wonder if Kuyou means that she was unchanged for the fifteen minutes that Yuki had changed the world according to Mikuru's perspective or the three days that Kyon had went through before he undid the changes that Yuki made. That would certainly have interesting implications if Kyon had not used the Emergency Escape Program.

And Kuyou's statement about things that cannot be observed, don't exist. I wonder if this means that Kuyou and the Sky Canopy Domain were unchanged by the Harupowers because Yuki had been unable to observe them, so she couldn't change them. So I wonder if Yuki was only able to change the information that she herself was able to observe or have knowledge of? This could explain how Data Entities cannot just use the Harupowers since Haruhi can change seemingly things without observing them.