2011-08-24, 02:58 | Link #23901 | |||||
The True Culprit
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2011-08-24, 07:58 | Link #23902 | ||||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I'm going to respond to your post somewhat out of order.
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Although, skimming through it again I pretty much came to the conclusion that the Ange-Ikuko/Featherine scenes were meta-meta. Like, truly meta between Ryuukishi (Featherine) and us (Ange). Definitely not laterally related with BATTLER's meta world like I suggested before. Quote:
Also because Yasu wants people to think Beatrice exists. And because Touya decided that it's best people don't know what actually happened. And what AuraTwilight said. And maybe 'cause it's just plain fun. Quote:
However, written text indicates that the scene is meant to convey something. Written, the magic scenes are a coded message from Beatrice (at least in Legend and Turn) in the form of a challenge to Battler, with the ultimate goal of Battler unveiling Beatrice's true form; it was Yasu's shy way to get Battler to notice and understand her. The magical scenes lose this warm backdrop if they are instead generated entirely from Touya's own imagination, and they also lose their usefulness in understanding how Touya, Yasu, and Ange interact with each other and the rest of the world. Quote:
However, I'm not convinced that the magic murder scenes are, as they are directly used to explain plot advancements in Dawn's 1986-Rokkenjima story, complete with Gaap teleporting Eva's corpse into the VIP room from outside. Yes, we all know they are not actually killed until Erika gets to them, but that's normal; a false magical narrative is a legitimate gamemaster's trick for trying to convince their opponents that witches exist. In other words, if it was a purely meta-event, why does it go out of the way to create a fantasy narrative logically consistent with the mystery narrative? Quote:
However, a "good" reader, like Ange, gets it. Interesting quotes from episode 6 Tea Party: Quote:
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It's still a bit uncertain, because it's hard to tell when episode 6 Ikuko/Featherine is truly speaking as "Hachijou Touya" and when she's speaking as Ryuukishi himself. |
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2011-08-24, 09:23 | Link #23903 | ||||
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Problem #2: Chick-Beato's existence makes no sense in the story outside of a meta context. Therefore any scene involving her fighting Natsuhi can't possibly make any sense. That means, at best, only the Rosa/Maria, Eva, and Kyrie killings are actually explained in the text if the "magical" scenes appear in it and the "meta" scenes don't. So basically either the meta stuff's in there, or the magic stuff isn't. Well... either that or several magic scenes were removed and at least one wholly replaced. Problem #3: The setup of the First Twilight in ep6 seems to present a narrative puzzle that is more impactful if the successive discovery of the bodies hits the reader just as suddenly as it hits the characters. If Eva is killed outside and then warped into a closed room, the story seems to lose something. I'd argue the same about Banquet honestly, but we know why that magic scene was in there and it was really not for the benefit of Ryukishi's narrative. Quote:
Remember, we can't simply say Legend is an establishing story with magic scenes to come in later works, because:
It's a serious problem. Legend would be grossly incongruous with the rest of the series if it didn't come first. But the story we're told about the provenance of the message bottles makes it absolutely impossible to guarantee that it would be read first. It's not merely a question of a story being lost like Land; without Legend, literally none of the other stories make sense. So Legend is both first and, if magic scenes are integral to the text, completely different from every other story in not having any. Something's very wrong with that. The only other solution is that Legend did have magic scenes, and the story skipped them (as when Shannon sees the butterflies and the story immediately cuts away) or edited them (like Kanon's death scene, which perhaps could have been longer originally). Quote:
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2011-08-24, 15:59 | Link #23904 | ||
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Yasu/Battler-Beatrice also says that she is 1000 years old and that this story describes her revival in full details and this is all the truth... Also it's not exactly Ikuko who's talking to Ange there...it's more an amalgation of THE author in form of Featherine. I think in those scenes she is much less Hachijô Ikuko and much more Featherine Augustus Aurora, the representation of the author himself. And therefore I think we shouldn't only see what BATTLER or Yasu want us to see, because there is also another author and that is Ryûkishi. He might have been a little awkward when it came to showing us which scenario was which at which point...but it was still also a battler between us and him. |
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2011-08-24, 18:02 | Link #23905 | ||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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BATTLER has no obligation to provide fantasy narrative. In terms of precedent, we're given no magical explanation for Maria, Kumasawa, and Gohda's deaths in Alliance; no magical explanation for any deaths in End; no magical explanation for spontaneously materializing letters in several episodes; no magical explanation for why Nanjo and Kumasawa's corpses disappear from the kitchen in Turn; ect. ect.
It is notable that only Battler's explanation was left out of a set of related deaths; however, I believe that was intentional by our storyteller, BATTLER. Battler's "death" is already odd from a purely mystery standpoint as being the only male victim, and also strange from the standpoint that he has never died in any twilight of any story before. It also makes sense that BATTLER would want to draw Erika's attention to Battler if we are to follow the Genius Battler Theory. In the end, I don't think he's trying to weave an interesting mystery so much as he's trying to convey a message using the mystery/fantasy context, and leaving Battler's "death" unexplained is somehow intended to further this goal. Although Erika fails to get anything because she just tunnel-visions on the mystery. Quote:
Assuming my viewpoint is true (magic written, meta not), it is interesting to imagine what the reader is actually getting; imagine if all that we were presented with in episode 6 was the meta-discussions Erika was involved in plus anything that occurs in a Rokkenjima setting, with none of the love duel stuff and none of BATTLER's discussions in his meta-staffroom. What we get is kind of like Turn, isn't it? You know, what with the out of context and out of nowhere magical scenes... and then the trick to get out of the logic error is a lot like Banquet's trick to kill Nanjo. Except that now we get to see how these strange things happen from the gamemaster's standpoint. Quote:
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Actually... wow, this all makes sense. People did find Turn first, but considered it nonsense because of all the magical bullshit. Then they found Legend, which could be taken seriously by itself, and realized it was the same author, which made people take another look at Turn. In other words, as long as Legend is actually found, it doesn't matter what order they were discovered, because the fact that Legend is the foundation story is clearly self-evident. As far as the author's delivery method ensuring that Legend be found... well for 4 years it wasn't found. If we're already willing to accept the idea that Yasu dropped her stories into the water with no guarantees that they would discovered, then it's no big change to imagine one story to be more important than the others. Well, yes. I'm hesitant to do so, but I also think that episode 6's Ange-level meta shouldn't be ignored completely as a source for hints either. Basically, I think there are two forms of discussion happening there: one is an Umineko meta-level discussion between meta-Ange and Auau/Ikuko and the other is true-meta level discussion between us readers (represented by Ange) and Ryuukishi (represented by Auaukuko). So, when Ange speaks indignantly about having been killed once before in the fictions, I think she's speaking for herself as Ange to "Hachijou Touya" and not as a representation of us readers to Ryuukishi. |
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2011-08-24, 18:44 | Link #23906 | ||
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The truth is, Beatrice/"Beatrice"/"Ushiromiya Maria" is a fairly clever person who seems quite adept at planning ahead. So we're just to accept that the establishing story, apparently the only one of its kind ever found (Turn isn't and Land apparently wasn't supposed to be), might have gone missing by random chance, wrecking not just that one story but every other story that might possibly be found? Please. Look, if you're dealing with a woman who can set up bank accounts and arrange return-to-sender payout mailings, it's a lot easier to buy her paying off a fisherman to "find" and release Legend at some predetermined date in the future. And that's assuming she didn't just survive in the first place and make sure it was "found" herself. Entrusting to fate my exquisitely-sculpted ass. (* the etymology of "fuck" may not, in fact, be French; I happen to know it is of Germanic origin, don't ask me how, but "pardon my Old Germanic Languages" doesn't have the same je nais se quoi, and you can indeed pardon that French)
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2011-08-24, 21:49 | Link #23907 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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However. We're talking about some emotionally isolated inbred identity-confused penis-less man-girl in love with 3 of her cousins at once here. She might be capable of setting up bank accounts, but she's still coocoo. How could it not be at least possible that she would leave her message-bottles' discoveries to chance? I have a lot more trouble believing that stories could be properly prepared when they couldn't have even been started until 1-3 days before the conference (based on the weather predictions and the prediction of Ange's absence). Quote:
If (and I mean if) Yasu actually uses such an unreliable method as bottles-by-sea to deliver her work, then whether she's got everything riding on one single story being discovered, or one of three (that's an acceptable number, right?; Legend, Turn, and Land), it doesn't change the fact that she chose to use a decidedly unreliable method of distribution (when she has access to reliable methods). Indeed the probabilities differ, but it doesn't significantly change the character of the action. |
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2011-08-26, 03:10 | Link #23908 | |
Thought Being
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
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2011-08-26, 16:56 | Link #23909 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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For any interpretation of the meta-world being in some way a reflection of Touya's mind, it truly is strange how Touya seems to be playing the game with himself once he starts becoming part of the writing process. And if we are to go a bit further and believe that fantasy elements are not written, but projected (an idea not without its merits) then it seems even more strange to imagine that Touya was expressing himself through a conventional mystery while keeping his fantasy interpretation unexpressed. I suppose there is also the matter of Ikuko, who would act as a filter between Touya's ideas and what is actual put to writing.
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2011-08-26, 19:58 | Link #23910 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Ah man, so many posts to read through that I don't completely understand yet because I haven't read ep8.
I really hoped that the Meta-World was really some 10th dimensional story of characters that took precedence over the actual universe(sorta) and that fragments were really existent. But that's hard to believe with these new theories about the matters. Now, when you guys say ''Fantasy'' and ''Meta'', you seem to act like they're different, is this because you're talking about Fantasy being on the lines of ''Kanon dueling with a goat'', and Meta being ''Battler complaining to Beatrice when he sees a murder''? If so, are scenes like EP5's court of illusions Fantasy, or Meta? For that matter, what about the fight between Dlanor and Battler, when Battler supposedly resurrects? Is that Fantasy or Meta? I could see it as being Meta by some mystery expert correcting Battler's reasoning by quoting the Knox's(Dlanor fighting Battler), but it also felt REALLY Fantasy to me. Maybe you guys mean: ''Meta= Red and Blue fights'' while Fantasy= ''Bullcrap scenes in the story like Kanon swordfighting a goat''? Just trying to confirm the specific points here. |
2011-08-26, 20:44 | Link #23911 | |||
The True Culprit
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2011-08-26, 21:18 | Link #23912 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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That makes episode 6 a lot more confusing, because in order to kill Kyrie, Jessica acknowledged she had to make a ''closed room murder'' to justify the Fantasy scene.(Well, she was in a situation where closed room would be the only answer to the Fantasy scene).
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2011-08-26, 21:55 | Link #23914 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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But I'll repeat: What you describe is a completely valid and intended interpretation of Umineko. Quote:
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And on to something else So, I replayed episode 8's "????" and noticed/remembered a couple important things that bear heavily on the topics of recent discussion. Kotobuki Yukari (Ange) remembered playing with Maria and her stuffed animal Sakutarou. Hachijou Touya recognized that the author of "Sakutarou's Great Adventure" had to be none other than Ange. So: -Sakutarou was in fact made up by Maria (not by Touya as I had theorized) -Touya somehow knew of Sakutarou (even though he had never known Maria at the same time as Sakutarou "existed") -Ange would know of Sakutarou regardless of whether she had access to Maria's diary or not -Which also implies a considerably greater possibility of Ange being well familiar with Mariage Sorciere even without Maria's diary Also of note is the fact that "Hachijou Touya" is only referred to as an author of mystery novels (推理小説) and nothing is mentioned of "Hachijou Touya"'s work including any fantasy elements. This is strong evidence that fantasy elements are purely a meta-projection. Quote:
There's also the part of Alliance where Kanon and Shannon talk about their experiences in past stories as well. So yeah, this stuff really hurts some of my theories. But I have to say that Alliance would be pretty damn shitty as a pure mystery. It would be shitty as a theory too, since Eva's death flags it as obvious fiction. Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-08-26 at 22:21. |
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2011-08-26, 22:17 | Link #23915 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Battler and Ange met when Ange was still a child. Ange said to Battler she had played with Maria and her stuffed lion Sakutarou, which Maria believes to be capable of talking but that, when she had gotten bored with Maria pretending Sakutarou could talk, she had informed her Kirye had told her Sakutarou couldn't talk. Later Battler goes on Rokkenjima, there's the Rokkenjima incident, he becomes Toya and, among the fragments he remembers there's that Maria had a 'talking' stuffed lion. Going on. While he was on Rokkenjima Prime he might have asked Rosa where was Maria's lion and she might have told him it broke but that she had made for her another which she had forgotten on the boat. As Toya, after hearing rumors about how bad of a mother Rosa was he might have joined this bit of memory with the assumption Rosa broke Sakutarou and you have Sakutarou story. |
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2011-08-26, 23:09 | Link #23916 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-08-27, 02:48 | Link #23917 | ||
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However, there's nothing that would exclude it from his works, at the least.
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2011-08-27, 03:21 | Link #23918 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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2011-08-27, 15:36 | Link #23919 | |
Senior Member
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Basically everything that Tôya seems to know he could have learned from Yasu or Maria during his stay on 1986 Rokkenjima. I still lean towards the theory that he actually had some time to look into her diary...there must be a reason why it survived the accident. And it being a source of Beatrice's magic, I highly doubt Maria would have left it at home. The problem with Ange not possessing the diary is that she had no immediate knowledge of Mariage Sorciere. She was supposed to become a member but it seems like she was expelled before the first actual meeting...at least it's implied by the Maria/Ange plot. Ange didn't seem to have any memory ever meeting "Beatrice" or any of the magical friends before. Though of course had she taken part in any of the meetings and just forgot about it because she was too young and found it boring (basically it's just Maria, Yasu and Kumasawa drinking tea and drawing some pictures)...this would give even more credence to the Kyrie culprit theory, because her daughter could have told her about there being someone playing out the part of Beatrice. |
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2011-08-27, 15:57 | Link #23920 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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