2004-12-18, 10:29 | Link #101 | |
Mashou no Tenshi
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As to Neji, while he has shown spectacular micro-scale chakra control, he hasn't shown ability to spin it (as opposed to what falsehoods have been allowed to propagate in this thread) on the basis of his chakra strength, and he probably doesn't have the amount to create that many. It would probably take him many years to learn it, and would be a waste of his time in that he could use that time to improve on other areas. The rasengan isn't made for someone like him. For the rasengan and its training, you need great chakra, stamina, and physical chakra control. Neji most likely has the proper amounts for the last requisite, but for the rasengan to be right for you, you need all three--like the 4th, Jiraiya, and Naruto. |
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2004-12-18, 10:55 | Link #102 | |
ore wa kanpeki da
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-12-18, 11:50 | Link #103 | |
Mashou no Tenshi
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2004-12-18, 13:44 | Link #104 | ||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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You think that he forgot that? There is a reason why Kishimoto decided to put water tanks and not just some kind of walls. The Rasengan made the water moving in all sort of direction except that contrary to the water balloon the water tank couldn't become all dented and deformed and thus ended bursting from one side. It's to say that a chakra vortex put into water wouldn't make the water spin which doesn't make sense at all. Quote:
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2004-12-18, 16:11 | Link #105 |
Crescent & Star
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Amsterdam
Age: 37
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If the 4th Critisized Kakashi for the incompleteness of chidori, he must have had his own way of striking the opponent... Wonder if Naruto will learn.
I assume Yondaime is not a hypocrite, like critisize Kakashi for chidori and bluntly attacking with rasengan. |
2004-12-18, 23:42 | Link #106 | |
無謀
Join Date: Sep 2004
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hrm, maybe could have been construed as a manga spoiler. dont want some foaming at the mouth admin to ban me fora week so i deleted it Last edited by Srin Tuar; 2004-12-19 at 01:27. |
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2004-12-19, 00:00 | Link #107 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
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chakra compression: true, but that's just one element. imo, it needs a vacuum + air pressure + kinetic motion. this motion is like the running start of chidori except 10000000 times more faster to form a spheric container. this kind of vortex inside is like extreme PSI (100000000 pressure per square inch). the tank's implosion: would havebeen in 360 degrees direction. it would have blown the tank to smithereens. but from the hole, it appears the decompression of the ball is triangulated in one direction. it would be inefficient if one needed massive quantity to create extreme density of energetic force. imo, rasengan isn't about mass x quantity but extreme efficient, clever use of chakra to create a 1-dimensional field of energy in 3D space. in ORMUS theory where the atoms in gold (3D object) are unbonded, loosely to mean it requires less energy to hold the bonds together and space becomes much less at atomic level. once gold is debonded to a monoatomic state (1D). its atomic weight can't even be weighed with current tech. the density of its quanta is astromically unknown too. tangentially, this theory is like the rasengan where its like PSI ball in relation to space of a densified version of 10 cubic football fields of quanta. /gibber |
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2004-12-19, 00:35 | Link #108 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
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SWEEEEEETTTTTT.....
I have never seen, or dreamed that one could analyze anime to the degree you just did. HELL YEAH, debonded gold. WOW. Ah that made my evening right there. I am now a smiling smiling man. Anyway to expand on what you said I think that the extreme efficiency you quoted is only possible under rareified conditions. Neji has excellent emmision ability but lacks the abilty to control it as an external substance, a requisite for the moves execution. I assume that it requires a certain prohibitive level of genius that only the fourth and his genius(academy grad 7 years) mentor Jiraya managed to pull off. Moreover there has to be a power component though I believe that part of that is the force required to compress the chakra. If chakra is considered a substance or an energy then it has volume, which would be the normal designator of the requisites of a technique, ie you need x units of chakra to pull this off. The rasengan if you will requires a small amount of chakra but needs an exceedingly high voltage. The small amount must be spun very fast thus giving it kinetic energy. Losing control at this phase results in that massive explosion that shot naruto hundreds of feet and burned his hands. Furthermore I posit that the reason that naruto has the abilty to execute the move is that his framework can withstand the neccessary exertion to rotate the chakra, and furthermore the semi sentient and externally manipulable qualities of the Kyuubi's energy actually allows him to efficiently convert work into power. I show naruto one handing the rasengan while in full Kyuubi mode as proof positve that the chakra of the nine tails is what allowed such an extraordinary feat. |
2004-12-19, 00:42 | Link #109 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I'll just say that people assume that all Neji can do is stuff like closing points...
First off all you shouldn't assume things. Second of all, the assumption are proven wrong by things shown later in the manga... apperantly you cant even put spoiler tags unless it's [manga] right? Well that severly limits any valid discussion in terms of Neji's ability to use the Rasengan... and a lot of other non [manga] topics... |
2004-12-20, 09:52 | Link #111 | ||||
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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You would have loved the thread why the characters run like retard
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Besides there is no vacuum in water which was however stated as a better environment to increase the power of the Rasengan. The kinetic motion/spin speed is indeed an important point of the Rasengan as stated numerous times by both Jiraiya and Naruto. Quote:
A water tank isn't a thin water ballon and couldn't become all dented and deformed and thus ended bursting a hole from one side during one of the spin. Note that it already happened anyway during the ballon training when Naruto wasn't perfectly focusing his chakra inside the ballon which wasn't possible on a target as large as the water tank. Btw you certainely didn't use trigonometry to calculate the direction so there is no point to use "triangulated" in your sentence. Quote:
But better than that it's precisely stated once again by both Naruto and Jiraiya. You have the right to be wrong but the fact remains that you contradict the explanation in the manga. Oh and the last part of your sentence is laughable. Quote:
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2004-12-20, 11:12 | Link #112 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
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i think the water tank would look more realistic if the top would explode as well.
since the rasengan might lose its concentration in the water without guidance from naruto, and all the power just unleash into a huge tonado, that would cause the water tank to just explode. due to the pressure. |
2004-12-20, 19:34 | Link #113 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Hunter, once again you have jumped in and stated this is so without the slightest idea of what you are this is so'ing against. The theory he proposed only has the slightest bit of bearing on the amount of chakra that is needed to execute the maneuver not the vagaries of the first stage rasengan. The third stage rasengan does have this phenomena of incredible pressure called weight in the manga, at least the inane translation.
I don't want to start a flame war with you quoting every single line of my post so I will keep this short. I don't insult you I just want to avoid this degenerating into a hunter vs... thread. Rexamine exactly what he is stating and perhaps instead of saying this is not so giving a this is so argument. As it stands your arguments don't really seem to exist until someone says something then they leap into existance and annihilate them like anitmatter. All I'm saying is instead of ragging on ORMUS, or his ideas, ask if you don't understand, but until then reserve judgement. |
2004-12-20, 20:17 | Link #114 | |
Bubbly and super fun
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
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The 3rd stage of the Rasengan cumulates the first two steps.
Then I wasn't ragging on ORMUS but on the total lack of common point between that and the Rasengan. And actually I could have ragged on the very principle of "ormus" as well given that it seems to be fairly lucridious. What can we know about ormus or Orbitally Rearranged Monoatomic Elements except that it's supposed to be the so called "Philosopher's Stone" or also the "Elixir of Life"? (but please people, help us finding money it's for science!) Well the purpose of the great pyramide for example. Let's quote the whole thing this is worth it. Quote:
When I compared that to the why the characters run like retard, I wasn't kidding. The whole ormus stuff is nothing but pseudo-scientific language mixed with basic paranormal story at the same level of a X-file episode. Not even at this level in fact. Oh yeah and if you didn't get my points then you can... ask. |
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2004-12-20, 20:32 | Link #115 | |
無謀
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Anti-matter contained in a magnetic field, or plasma streams or something like that might make a good analogy maybe. Not gold nuclei. |
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2004-12-20, 21:36 | Link #116 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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hmm i think both control and a lot of chakra is required for rasengan...
everyone here is saying all the steps to learning the rasengan was all about control... but that is probably only because naruto already has mastered outputting enough chakra for it... so while neji could learn it i dont think jiraiya would bother teaching him it since he probably doesnt pass the test of outputing enough chakra for it, whats the point of a rasengan when all you can do with it is tickle someone... im pretty sure when naruto first met jiraiya he mentioned something like naruto has shit loads of chakra already so he should concentrate more on mass chakra use techniques rather than those that require some set amount. |
2004-12-20, 23:24 | Link #117 | |
Ultra noob
Join Date: Dec 2004
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2004-12-20, 23:33 | Link #118 | |
無謀
Join Date: Sep 2004
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He has really only three strengths: Stamina, Fast healing, and Massive quantities of chakura. |
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2004-12-20, 23:52 | Link #119 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2003
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stamina, because of his kyuubi, healing, also because of the kyuubi, and uber power, because of the kyuubi. jiraya was right, he didn't need to learn control, imagine if he could do the heavenly spin like neji, it could develop into an offensive power, instead of just defensive. |
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2004-12-20, 23:52 | Link #120 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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I ain't gonna go out on a limb for another dudes theory. I will say that the third stage rasengan is a perfectly self contained vortex of shifting rotating chakra... How does chakra interact with physical entites, well, force. So it has pressure and even if it doesn't have mass it has volume. If it is sealed in there what is sealing it? I dunno but the theories that have been put forward adress this. Does it hav any relation to Neji's abilty to execute it or what shape the tank exploded? I think that Sculder and Mully would have a great time figgering it out.
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