(L) Seirei no Moribito (Guardian of the Sacred Spirit)

[lommm]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

About the only thing he could do to make it worse is invade Iraq.

rofl
and then go play golf.

[gaguri]

Yea, now there are speculations about the Emperor and/or Holy Sage doing the biddings of fire people for a reason completely unknown to us, this is all getting better and better isn't it?

I mean, if I was the Emperor, I too would personally beat the living hell out of Holy Sage if he lied to me and made me go ninja on my own son. But it's not out of question to think that the Emperor has recognised the fault of Holy Sage to be only a human flaw and overwhelmed by the joy of hearing that his son is still alive, he left the issue alone. And it seems like Shuga and the hunters also bought this, and didn't raise any question of punishing Holy Sage more than stripping his control away. Were they so thick to not have realised this most obvious truth behind the Emperor's shocking decision to not punish Holy Sage? I doubt it.


Perhaps he didn't punish the sage because he is more of 'forget the past and lets work towards the future' person (yea that kind of real nice person), or perhaps Holy Sage really was that insignificant and wasn't important enough to spend great deal of unnecessary drama of the series into his head being chopped off. However, there still is the possibility of Holy Sage or Emperor working as a shadow of unknown and larger forces, but I'd be personally disappointed if the series used its remaining episodes to go even more into that messy political web instead of giving more details behind the fantastic elements (which I hope, has a symbolic representation like many great fantasy anime do).

[ZippyDSM]

The Emperor and Holy sage are upholding the goverment and traditions of the well...the goverment..the "people" are merely livestock to them.

They found out rather late about the real history and what was inflicting Chagum plus they do not know about "fate" and the reasons why Balsa is not letting go of him, they don't want to know they just do what they are told.

As for Shuga hes in between a rock and a hard place he cares for the prince and is loyal to the court,while he might not dismiss commoners as livestock hes still a bit stuck up and overly focused on getting Chagum to return whatever the cost.

Neither side is ready to talk to each other,well mostly the court is so full of itself it can not stay its hand long enough to be talked too.

[gaguri]

I don't know, the emperor seems like a reasonable person to me, who cares a lot about both his people and his son. Although I'd have to say he's a naive character, since he was naive enough to think that Sagum was fit enough as a crown prince and naive enough to let history founded on fallacy take Chagum's life.

[ZippyDSM]

Originally Posted by gaguri

I don't know, the emperor seems like a reasonable person to me, who cares a lot about both his people and his son. Although I'd have to say he's a naive character, since he was naive enough to think that Sagum was fit enough as a crown prince and naive enough to let history founded on fallacy take Chagum's life.

Mmmm well I might be lumping charatcers together on their distaste for commoners ,however they just found out after the fact what the true history is because it was locked away from everyone but a select few Holy men and even they did not know of it,it took Shuga to find this info out.

What we don't know is whos pulling the strings why for the false history,I believe the court will take care of its own before all else thus we have the current troubles of not trying to reach out to Balsa and talk to her.

there are a lot of pieces moving about
the court will do for the court ( hunters and holy men ).

Shuga aids the court for the prince he knew I believe in the end he would betray them for the prince,Shuga seems the dutiful type not to some abstract goverment but to his prince,because of this he will walk in the darkness.

we have the emperor whos partially aloof due to tradition whos hands are seemingly tied to them.

We have a false history who's true meaning has not been reviled (yes we know it was to create the new goverment but there has to be something more)

We have the empress as well however I believe she has no power right now and can do nothing more than ask Balsa to return the prince,but men being men wont even ask or use this thought process.

We finally also have Balsas group and Chagum and the fate surrounding Chagum and less than 10 eps to finish it all in, let the pieces fall where they may it will none the less be beautiful .

[xPresagio]

Finally reached the 17 chapter.

I have been reading your comments and theories in lurking mode, and would actually like to add yet another one that could wrap the questions:

In case it comes true:

Spoiler:

The current trend seems to be that the Holy Sage and /or the current Emperor are evil or linked to the Fire people. But I believe they are just victims of traditions (and something else):

Holy Sage
1. During the Chagum's funeral ceremony, we seem him looking to the Emperor's family with sad expression. And when he receives the message that Chagum died in the mountains, he is shown sighing, giving the impression of great pain. All the people around him are just servants, so it would be irrelevant for him to "fake" his reactions.

2. If he is a disguised Fire people, then why he didn't translated the holy book by himself? And if the couldn't (due to some restriction), then why didn't allow Shuga to continue? And if he did indeed already read those tablets, then why ask Shuga to do it? -In either case, there is no gain for him.

3. When Sagum dead is uncovered, we hear his thoughts, regretting of having focused more in internal politics than he should. He truly believes that. That's enough to discard any links with Fire, or him being the puppet master. And that also explains why he gives his support to Shuga: He realized that at the end, he had become just an obstacle and that the only one capable/that "deserves" to solve all the mess, is his disciple.


Emperor
1. He never sent the hunters to assassinate Chagum. Remember that in chapter 1 is revealed that the only one that can do such task, is himself (with the old holy sword). It's reinforced at least twice later. So the persecution was not a simple&dirty way to get rid of his son - it really had a motive larger than just petty politics.

2. His behavior depict him as an honest, concerned Emperor. His grieving for both Chagum and Sagum deaths seem quite genuine. He even goes through the problem to request the build of a new statue for his son, even though it goes against the traditions and status quo. It was not necessary, so it wouldn't benefit him, if he were a puppet/dupe from Fire people.

------------
We can also rule out Shagum. He really cares for the prince (it was under his charge for several years, after all). And Sagum is already dead.

Couldn't just be that all of them trully believes what the Official story says? It have been hundred of years since such events occurred, so why would they need to believe otherwise?

They are only reacting to the "demon possession" + drought sign. All the information regarding the matter is seen as holy, so what else could the Emperor do? He thinks that killing his son, as harsh as it sounds, it's the only way to prevent the annihilation of all the reign. It's his duty to protect the people.

The only hope lied on the tablets, but all went to the drain when the prince was taken away by the bodyguard -and later perished during the persecution.



So, for all of you that really want to find a conspirator, think: if none of them are truly suspects.. who else would benefit of all these events? Who would be so devious, as to even use the "possesion" as a way to get rid of Chagum, fully knowing that Sagum was really sick. Was really such sickness.. natural?

Yeah, it might still be someone that we haven't considered yet.


And just for kicks: The anime has taken some length into "flesh out" the personality of 3 of the hunters. Mon as leader, seems quite honorable. Jin is heavely linked to Chagum. And the big guy has also shown traits of being an honest person.

But what of the others? If someone in high position in the Palace really wanted to push his agenda, wouldn't be useful to have an ally with the ultimate skill of a spy? You know.. the ability to quickly memorize documents..even if they were confidential?

Who knows. Maybe the Mon//Jin/big guy may have to face an unexpected enemy, not Balsa herself. And also maybe, the egg eater was more cunning that we initially believed.

Just a thought.




Extra: The behavior of Karbo after being defeated didn't seem odd to me. At all. When he faces Balsa for the 1st time, he let us know -without any shade or doubt- that even since he was defeated, he has had only one thought: to destroy Balsa. He even said to have "fantasized" about it. And the reason is not that he lost, but rather, that he lost to someone that was using a "poor" objective such as protect someone else (that it was no warrior). He thanks to the gods for getting a new chance. And blatantly says, that if he were to fail once again, it would means total defeat, regardless if he kept practicing. Notice that for him, is not enough to physically kill Balsa. He wants to prove a point -that his motives are superior than those from her, but mostly, that him being defeated and not dying back then, was more due to cheap tricks. That there most have been another reason. That's why he is "trying" to level the ground by using a similar weapon. It's not a matter of a simple "pay back" or vengeance. He is putting his future at stake.

That's why when he hears the actual explanation of why she didn't kill him, he snaps. It wasn't about skills, or about some special, high purpose. She just didn't want to kill people. It would have been the same, if he were anyone else. -His existence, was effectively reduced to nothing.


Later, him rising and acting like that, remembered me to the way young German marines from the Bismarck behaved after it was sunk -back in 2nd WW: They were raised to believe that Hitler, the nazi, and ultimately the Germans, were superior beings. That no one could defeat them. They were even more special, because were staff of the most powerful and impressive ship of all History. Yet, when they faced total defeat, lying there, in the cold waters, it probably felt as if all their existence was just a facade. No longer relevant. It took several days, with strong chemics to bring them back from their almost zombi-like behaviour.


But at the end, the fact that he didn't die (even when Balsa directly says that was her purpose to kill him), it's probably associated to the notion of the "ultimate weapon". I'm not sure that it will be used to kill Chagum, though.

[EasyPrey]

@xPresagio, great insight! I am impressed by your reasoning.

The only point that is nagging me is why did anyone not ask the most obvious question: Holy Sage, why did you lie to us?

Originally Posted by xPresagio

Who knows. Maybe the Mon//Jin/big guy may have to face an unexpected enemy, not Balsa herself. And also maybe, the egg eater was more cunning that we initially believed.

I personally think that the "egg eater" is just a being. Kinda like Galactus. Those beings just go about their business and are generally indifferent to the consequences to other species (this is kinda like you eating meat). I just cannot see the egg eater (probably a super natural being), being involved in plots or politics. There is no gain for such a being to do so.

However, the fire people and the water people have a vested interest. They already told us that all the worlds are "linked". The same spirit bestows water on all the worlds. Water is the very source of life (for our planet) and the water people. Water is the very source of death for the fire people. For them, it is a matter of life or death.

There was an excellent story told in Stargate SG-1 (Season 4, episode 16 "2010" and Season 5, episode 10, "2001"). It was a story of a race of beings, that conquered planets (and killed the native population), without firing a single shot. I think the fire people are using the same tactics.

I think it would be difficult for the fire people to actually come here and "fight" (since they cannot exist in our plane of existence). Instead, they put a plan in motion (that appointed a fake emperor). The plan only had a chance of success once every hundred years. But a long term plan is better than no plan at all.

----------------------------------

I would like to thank lommm, gaguri, wao, and xPresagio for getting us started in this great discussion and contributing to it. I think collectively those made this dying thread come back to life.

Spoiler for Episode 19, the "bestest" episode since episode 3:

Wow! You don't need to know Japanese to understand the raw emotions in that episode. Wow!

The only problem is, I am a man. Therefore, I cannot admit to choking up or having tears. Therefore, I simply won't admit* to nearly choking up, while watching that episode.

* I don't deny it either.

The reconciliation between Chagum and Balsa was a necessary step. Now Chagum is bonded to Balsa (like Balsa is to Chagum). Chagum will be able to "take command" of Suga and/or the hunters. Rather than being a boy, he will command the hunters as a prince to stop the foolish "hunt" immediately.

The problem for them (Suga and the hunters) will be once "Prince Chagum" commands them, they have to obey him. If they recognize Chagum as the Prince, than they just cannot disobey a "Royal Order". So it would really force the hunter's hand: Either they are there to kill "Chagum" (which they don't recognize to be the Prince), or they are there to rescue "Prince Chagum". In the later case, they (Suga and hunters) unequivocally have to obey any and all royal orders by Prince Chagum. I predict that Chagum will simply order them to go back and stop all pursuit immediately.

-EasyPrey

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler for Episode 19, the "bestest" episode since episode 3:

The problem for them (Suga and the hunters) will be once "Prince Chagum" commands them, they have to obey him. If they recognize Chagum as the Prince, than they just cannot disobey a "Royal Order". So it would really force the hunter's hand: Either they are there to kill "Chagum" (which they don't recognize to be the Prince), or they are there to rescue "Prince Chagum". In the later case, they (Suga and hunters) unequivocally have to obey any and all royal orders by Prince Chagum. I predict that Chagum will simply order them to go back and stop all pursuit immediately.

Not really. They do recognize Chagum as the Prince, but they're also loyal to their country, and thus their Emperor. Only time will tell, if their allegiances will shift or not.

[EasyPrey]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Not really. They do recognize Chagum as the Prince, but they're also loyal to their country, and thus their Emperor. Only time will tell, if their allegiances will shift or not.

Spoiler for Episode 19 discussion (leading into episode 20):

Actually, the Emperor's lineage is "choosen by God" or some other BS. They talked about it in the "Knott" episode. The subjects just cannot disobey a royal order (even if they think it is unwise).

If Chagum were to command them "arrest Suga for the crime of treason and execute him, if he were to speak." The hunters have no choice in this matter. They have to obey a royal order. Royal orders are not subjected to interpretation.

The hunters are not empowered to assert their own judgment (over the Prince) in the matter. They are there to rescue Prince Chagum. They are no longer empowered to kidnap the Prince against his will (unlike the last time). Once the Prince has been "rescued", their scope of authority ends right then and there.

If I was Chagum, I would tell them, "consider me 'rescued'. I have a new royal order for you. You are to immediately travel to the North Pole on a secret mission. Spend one year in the journey and you are not allowed to disclose to anyone where you are going and why. Please go RIGHT NOW." The hunters would not have a choice in the matter. They would have to do, what they are commanded to do.

This Anime spent episode six to fourteen in building character for Chagum. Chagum is smart. Chagum is not affraid. Chagum is a keen observer. Chagum is independant. I get it. If Chagum is not going to assert himself, why spend so much time building his character? Where are the fruits of that investment of time?

Chagum is going to assert himself and take command of the situation. That is a foregone conclusion. The only question is whether he will do it in episode 20 or episode 26.

-EasyPrey

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler for Episode 19 discussion (leading into episode 20):

Actually, the Emperor's lineage is "choosen by God" or some other BS. They talked about it in the "Knott" episode. The subjects just cannot disobey a royal order (even if they think it is unwise).

If Chagum were to command them "arrest Suga for the crime of treason and execute him, if he were to speak." The hunters have no choice in this matter. They have to obey a royal order. Royal orders are not subjected to interpretation.

The hunters are not empowered to assert their own judgment (over the Prince) in the matter. They are there to rescue Prince Chagum. They are no longer empowered to kidnap the Prince against his will (unlike the last time). Once the Prince has been "rescued", their scope of authority ends right then and there.

If I was Chagum, I would tell them, "consider me 'rescued'. I have a new royal order for you. You are to immediately travel to the North Pole on a secret mission. Spend one year in the journey and you are not allowed to disclose to anyone where you are going and why. Please go RIGHT NOW." The hunters would not have a choice in the matter. They would have to do, what they are commanded to do.

This Anime spent episode six to fourteen in building character for Chagum. Chagum is smart. Chagum is not affraid. Chagum is a keen observer. Chagum is independant. I get it. If Chagum is not going to assert himself, why spend so much time building his character? Where are the fruits of that investment of time?

Chagum is going to assert himself and take command of the situation. That is a foregone conclusion. The only question is whether he will do it in episode 20 or episode 26.

Spoiler:

Yes, but they're an elite group of soldiers serving an Empire as well. As long as he lives, the Emperor is the prime authority. The Prince may be a direct heir, but that doesn't mean he has equal authority as of the moment. They wouldn't be asserting their judgment over the Prince at all. If it was simple as this, then there would have been no need for Balsa and Chagum to stay out of sight. Moreover, what kind of empire are they running if the Prince is equal to the Emperor?

What I exactly meant, is that despite whatever hesitation or feelings they may have, at the end of the day the Emperor is still the Emperor. It isn't a question of "they have to," but rather a question of "what will they do?" if a critical moment arises.

Case in point, episode 3. Jin was willing to be the killing hand for the love of his Prince and his country. Loyalty clashes against his feelings and values, and though it tore him apart, he was still willing to take the Prince's life as it would've been taken by the Emperor if he brought the boy back. He couldn't bring the thought of a father taking his son's life, but Jin also understood what had to take place.

[wao]

EasyPrey: You don't know what a dead thread is for an ongoing show... yet This gets lengthy discussions almost every other day, I swear!

I have no idea how I came into the picture though, since I've just been watching everyone discuss the motives of the Emperor and Shuga and so on.

I think kujoe nailed the doubt I have about your theory right down when he said

Spoiler for 19/20:

"what kind of empire are they running if the Prince is equal to the Emperor?


The Prince isn't even of age. I'm sure the Emperor must have had some sense to say that he must be captured and brought back... which surely trumps the Prince's orders? I don't know - it sounds quite smart to go order them back once he is "rescued" (unless they only consider him rescued once he has been physically returned to the palace) but I just can't see it happening.
And again kujoe made the point about how even Jin, who was so emotionally attached to the Prince, ended up having to act against him because... whatever it was - patriotic feeling, extreme obligation - was stronger than those feelings. I don't think the rest of the Hunters are likely to listen to Chagum knowing very obviously that it's a ploy to make all that they've done meaningless.

I do think Chagum's intelligence should come into play soon though. Just that I never really thought about how... I would be very disappointed if he didn't do anything...

[EasyPrey]

Originally Posted by kujoe

Spoiler:

Yes, but they're an elite group of soldiers serving an Empire as well. As long as he lives, the Emperor is the prime authority. The Prince may be a direct heir, but that doesn't mean he has equal authority as of the moment. They wouldn't be asserting their judgment over the Prince at all. If it was simple as this, then there would have been no need for Balsa and Chagum to stay out of sight. Moreover, what kind of empire are they running if the Prince is equal to the Emperor?

What I exactly meant, is that despite whatever hesitation or feelings they may have, at the end of the day the Emperor is still the Emperor. It isn't a question of "they have to," but rather a question of "what will they do?" if a critical moment arises.

Case in point, episode 3. Jin was willing to be the killing hand for the love of his Prince and his country. Loyalty clashes against his feelings and values, and though it tore him apart, he was still willing to take the Prince's life as it would've been taken by the Emperor if he brought the boy back. He couldn't bring the thought of a father taking his son's life, but Jin also understood what had to take place.

Spoiler for Answer encompasing the latest raw (ep 19):

I think you raise a number of excellent points. Some are stronger, while the other ones are weak. For example, the reason Balsa and Chagum were staying out of sight was to maintain the illusion that they were dead. There was no power struggle between Chagum and the Emperor at that time. Balsa certainly did not know what Suga was up to.

Also Jin in episode 3 was going to Kill Chagum. But Jin realized that he was committing treason and he was going to be executed for it. That goes to the heart of my point. Jin was going to disobey a royal order and he fully realized that, that meant his death. Violation of a Royal Order is a high Crime.

"Royal Orders" are simply not subjected to the subject's beliefs or understanding. Jin knew that he was talking Chagum to be killed. That does not mean that he could kill Chagum himself. Even the slightest disobedience (no matter how well meaning) to a Royal Order is a high crime of treason. Jin realized that, and that is the point I have been trying to (unsuccessfully) convey.

If your point holds true, then Balsa will either kill all the pursuers or die trying. Either way, "the Prince" could not exert his will to stop this blood bath. Since this is Emperor versus Chagum power struggle, and Chagum cannot exert his will. I just cannot see this outcome. I predict that there will be a diplomatic solution found to the problem (without a blood bath). The Emperor's shadow will be ordered to stand down the pursuit (regardless of the original orders). Consequently, the Shadows will obey said order and terminate the "pursuit". I guess we will know this Saturday.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. This Anime spent a tremendous amount of time in building Chagum's character. I guarantee* that the audience will be given a "reward" for this tremendous investment of time. Chagum will take command of the "situation". The only question is whether he does that in the next episode, or the last episode of the season.

-EasyPrey

* All Guarantees are non-binding and completely meaningless.

[kujoe]

Wall of text.

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler for Answer encompasing the latest raw (ep 19):

For example, the reason Balsa and Chagum were staying out of sight was to maintain the illusion that they were dead. There was no power struggle between Chagum and the Emperor at that time. Balsa certainly did not know what Suga was up to.

Spoiler:

No, there wasn't. But that wasn't the point either. The point is, if it all it takes to stop the Hunters from chasing them is for Chagum to assert his position as Prince and order them to stop, then that's what he should do right now, as opposed as to staying out of sight. Even if he does so, I doubt Shuga and the Hunters would follow the Prince's orders over the Emperor's just like that. In this sense, it's the same back then as it is now.

Of course, there are other things at play. Shuga seems determined to bring the Prince back himself for his own reasons.

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler:

Also Jin in episode 3 was going to Kill Chagum. But Jin realized that he was committing treason and he was going to be executed for it. That goes to the heart of my point. Jin was going to disobey a royal order and he fully realized that, that meant his death. Violation of a Royal Order is a high Crime.

Spoiler:

The reason why he would've been executed is mainly for two reasons. One is of course, for disobeying orders. That is, for not bringing the Prince back. The other is for slaying the Prince, when that's a right reserved for the Emperor as dictated by their beliefs and understanding. Jin understood that he had to slay the Prince according to those beliefs and much more, but those reasons still went in line with the Empire's will—that Chagum, who supposedly represented the taint of the royal line, had to die. The will of the father, and of the nation, goes beyond and is rated higher than that of the son's. In that vein, it's practically a scenario of, "I cannot let this happen," and a case of "but I can't let you go either. This is for the good of the Empire."

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler:

"Royal Orders" are simply not subjected to the subject's beliefs or understanding. Jin knew that he was talking Chagum to be killed. That does not mean that he could kill Chagum himself.

Spoiler:

Are you saying that Jin chose not to kill Chagum right there and then? It's possible he may have withdrawn at the last minute. And you're right; orders aren't simply to be subjected to one's own beliefs and understanding. But Jin is a human being too, and at the same time a loyal soldier, and he was still willing to face the consequences of killing the son himself. That decision, while it reflected and went against his own feelings still went in line with what those very orders ultimately meant in the end.

At that time, he understood that the Prince had to die, but he also couldn't bear the idea of the Prince that he adores being slain by his father, hence a compromise of sorts that he was willing to die for. Those orders served a function—one which Jin didn't really turn away from.

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler:

If your point holds true, then Balsa will either kill all the pursuers or die trying. Either way, "the Prince" could not exert his will to stop this blood bath. Since this is Emperor versus Chagum power struggle, and Chagum cannot exert his will. I just cannot see this outcome. I predict that there will be a diplomatic solution found to the problem (without a blood bath). The Emperor's shadow will be ordered to stand down the pursuit (regardless of the original orders). Consequently, the Shadows will obey said order and terminate the "pursuit". I guess we will know this Saturday.

Spoiler:

Balsa is quite adamant that she will no longer be taking any lives. I don't see how this factors in with what you're trying to say, since her reasons for not killing are rather personal. Moreover, she has been avoiding taking lives after she left New Yogo two years ago, and she took up the job of protecting Chagum with that stance in mind from the very beginning. But the thought of being forced to kill has always been a possibility. She may be forced to think about it once in a while (ex. Karbo) but right now, her immediate goals involve finding answers about the Fire people and Chagum's survival, while that stance itself hasn't changed for the most part.

Moreover, I wasn't saying that Chagum is powerless as an individual. It's just that I don't think his political position alone can prevent the Hunters and Shuga from searching for him, when that's the very order that had been given to them by the Emperor. It isn't such a simple case as that. He simply can't give them a royal order them to stop. (Well, he could try.) He could've done this right now if it were that simple and easy. Granted, I'm not the one adapting the novel(s), but other things do have to take place first—other revelations and developments to sufficiently support such an outcome.

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

I have said it before, and I will say it again. This Anime spent a tremendous amount of time in building Chagum's character. I guarantee* that the audience will be given a "reward" for this tremendous investment of time. Chagum will take command of the "situation". The only question is whether he does that in the next episode, or the last episode of the season.

Oh, I have no doubt that Chagum's character will shine as a character in the story. But like wao, I'm not sure how. I'm sure he won't be ignored in the story. And he isn't being ignored at all.

[ZippyDSM]

Originally Posted by xPresagio

Finally reached the 17 chapter.

I have been reading your comments and theories in lurking mode, and would actually like to add yet another one that could wrap the questions:

In case it comes true:

Spoiler:

The current trend seems to be that the Holy Sage and /or the current Emperor are evil or linked to the Fire people. But I believe they are just victims of traditions (and something else):

Holy Sage
1. During the Chagum's funeral ceremony, we seem him looking to the Emperor's family with sad expression. And when he receives the message that Chagum died in the mountains, he is shown sighing, giving the impression of great pain. All the people around him are just servants, so it would be irrelevant for him to "fake" his reactions.

2. If he is a disguised Fire people, then why he didn't translated the holy book by himself? And if the couldn't (due to some restriction), then why didn't allow Shuga to continue? And if he did indeed already read those tablets, then why ask Shuga to do it? -In either case, there is no gain for him.

3. When Sagum dead is uncovered, we hear his thoughts, regretting of having focused more in internal politics than he should. He truly believes that. That's enough to discard any links with Fire, or him being the puppet master. And that also explains why he gives his support to Shuga: He realized that at the end, he had become just an obstacle and that the only one capable/that "deserves" to solve all the mess, is his disciple.


Emperor
1. He never sent the hunters to assassinate Chagum. Remember that in chapter 1 is revealed that the only one that can do such task, is himself (with the old holy sword). It's reinforced at least twice later. So the persecution was not a simple&dirty way to get rid of his son - it really had a motive larger than just petty politics.

2. His behavior depict him as an honest, concerned Emperor. His grieving for both Chagum and Sagum deaths seem quite genuine. He even goes through the problem to request the build of a new statue for his son, even though it goes against the traditions and status quo. It was not necessary, so it wouldn't benefit him, if he were a puppet/dupe from Fire people.

------------
We can also rule out Shagum. He really cares for the prince (it was under his charge for several years, after all). And Sagum is already dead.

Couldn't just be that all of them trully believes what the Official story says? It have been hundred of years since such events occurred, so why would they need to believe otherwise?

They are only reacting to the "demon possession" + drought sign. All the information regarding the matter is seen as holy, so what else could the Emperor do? He thinks that killing his son, as harsh as it sounds, it's the only way to prevent the annihilation of all the reign. It's his duty to protect the people.

The only hope lied on the tablets, but all went to the drain when the prince was taken away by the bodyguard -and later perished during the persecution.



So, for all of you that really want to find a conspirator, think: if none of them are truly suspects.. who else would benefit of all these events? Who would be so devious, as to even use the "possesion" as a way to get rid of Chagum, fully knowing that Sagum was really sick. Was really such sickness.. natural?

Yeah, it might still be someone that we haven't considered yet.


And just for kicks: The anime has taken some length into "flesh out" the personality of 3 of the hunters. Mon as leader, seems quite honorable. Jin is heavely linked to Chagum. And the big guy has also shown traits of being an honest person.

But what of the others? If someone in high position in the Palace really wanted to push his agenda, wouldn't be useful to have an ally with the ultimate skill of a spy? You know.. the ability to quickly memorize documents..even if they were confidential?

Who knows. Maybe the Mon//Jin/big guy may have to face an unexpected enemy, not Balsa herself. And also maybe, the egg eater was more cunning that we initially believed.

Just a thought.




Extra: The behavior of Karbo after being defeated didn't seem odd to me. At all. When he faces Balsa for the 1st time, he let us know -without any shade or doubt- that even since he was defeated, he has had only one thought: to destroy Balsa. He even said to have "fantasized" about it. And the reason is not that he lost, but rather, that he lost to someone that was using a "poor" objective such as protect someone else (that it was no warrior). He thanks to the gods for getting a new chance. And blatantly says, that if he were to fail once again, it would means total defeat, regardless if he kept practicing. Notice that for him, is not enough to physically kill Balsa. He wants to prove a point -that his motives are superior than those from her, but mostly, that him being defeated and not dying back then, was more due to cheap tricks. That there most have been another reason. That's why he is "trying" to level the ground by using a similar weapon. It's not a matter of a simple "pay back" or vengeance. He is putting his future at stake.

That's why when he hears the actual explanation of why she didn't kill him, he snaps. It wasn't about skills, or about some special, high purpose. She just didn't want to kill people. It would have been the same, if he were anyone else. -His existence, was effectively reduced to nothing.


Later, him rising and acting like that, remembered me to the way young German marines from the Bismarck behaved after it was sunk -back in 2nd WW: They were raised to believe that Hitler, the nazi, and ultimately the Germans, were superior beings. That no one could defeat them. They were even more special, because were staff of the most powerful and impressive ship of all History. Yet, when they faced total defeat, lying there, in the cold waters, it probably felt as if all their existence was just a facade. No longer relevant. It took several days, with strong chemics to bring them back from their almost zombi-like behaviour.


But at the end, the fact that he didn't die (even when Balsa directly says that was her purpose to kill him), it's probably associated to the notion of the "ultimate weapon". I'm not sure that it will be used to kill Chagum, though.

Very nicely said,I think that jin wanted to save the father/on from the horrid fate and kill charum himself but balsa knocked him out before he could,even so it pained him to try it and after which it only stiffed his loylity/worry/care to the prince(if I mixed up charatcers sorry).

I thought the Karbo/Balsa fight was mystical and wonderfully done if you think to much about it might ruin the experance,she has yet to learn to put everything into a fight without killing someone,it shows that if she could throw off her fear and doubts she could destroy her oppants without killing or maiming them.


Thoughts aside that fight was just feelings in motion more than "thinking"..if that makes any sense...

[EasyPrey]

Spoiler for Response to kujoe's comments (episode 19 raw):

Let me simplify what is going on. At the end of episode 19, the hunters have caught up to the village. Balsa is nearby but not inside the village and Chagum is with her. Even if Balsa does not return to the village, she could be tracked by the hunters in a fairly short amount of time.

The hunters are under orders to bring Chagum back. The hunters already publicly announced that they will kill each and everyone in the village, unless Chagum is returned to them. They are not the type that bluff. They will kill whatever number of people it takes (including Balsa) to bring Chagum back. They have made their stand and they are not backing down.

Balsa has made her stand that she is not going to give up Chagum. As long as she is alive, the hunters are not talking Chagum. Balsa is not backing down.

At the end of episode 19, they were at this nexus. Neither party is going to back down. Balsa might prevail in a fight, but it is just as likely that she may not prevail against eight hunters. Especially now that they know Balsa's "weakness" (that she is not willing to kill).

So, we are left with three possible outcomes:

1. Balsa will change her mind and hand over Chagum to the hunters.
2. Hunters will change their mind and stop the pursuit.
3. Bloodbath.

There is no other option. One way or another, this nexus has to be crossed.

I don't think Balsa will change her mind (and hand over Chagum). That eliminates option 1 and leaves only option 2 and 3. My position is that Chagum will pull a "Yoko" (Twelve Kingdoms) and take command of the situation. Emperor's orders be damned, "Prince Chagum's" orders will rule this day.

I welcome your thoughts on how this will play out. Please articulate which option you think will play out and why. Either way, we will know this Saturday.

-EasyPrey

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler:

I don't think Balsa will change her mind (and hand over Chagum). That eliminates option 1 and leaves only option 2 and 3. My position is that Chagum will pull a "Yoko" (Twelve Kingdoms) and take command of the situation. Emperor's orders be damned, "Prince Chagum's" orders will rule this day.

I welcome your thoughts on how this will play out. Please articulate which option you think will play out and why. Either way, we will know this Saturday.

My guess?

Spoiler:

Simpler put, Chagum might give himself up. The reason is to avoid option 3, which requires no further explanation why it should be avoided. But it's not as if he can simply order them to stop. He could make it appear that way, but the implication remains the same.

[ZippyDSM]

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler for Response to kujoe's comments (episode 19 raw):

Let me simplify what is going on. At the end of episode 19, the hunters have caught up to the village. Balsa is nearby but not inside the village and Chagum is with her. Even if Balsa does not return to the village, she could be tracked by the hunters in a fairly short amount of time.

The hunters are under orders to bring Chagum back. The hunters already publicly announced that they will kill each and everyone in the village, unless Chagum is returned to them. They are not the type that bluff. They will kill whatever number of people it takes (including Balsa) to bring Chagum back. They have made their stand and they are not backing down.

Balsa has made her stand that she is not going to give up Chagum. As long as she is alive, the hunters are not talking Chagum. Balsa is not backing down.

At the end of episode 19, they were at this nexus. Neither party is going to back down. Balsa might prevail in a fight, but it is just as likely that she may not prevail against eight hunters. Especially now that they know Balsa's "weakness" (that she is not willing to kill).

So, we are left with three possible outcomes:

1. Balsa will change her mind and hand over Chagum to the hunters.
2. Hunters will change their mind and stop the pursuit.
3. Bloodbath.

There is no other option. One way or another, this nexus has to be crossed.

I don't think Balsa will change her mind (and hand over Chagum). That eliminates option 1 and leaves only option 2 and 3. My position is that Chagum will pull a "Yoko" (Twelve Kingdoms) and take command of the situation. Emperor's orders be damned, "Prince Chagum's" orders will rule this day.

I welcome your thoughts on how this will play out. Please articulate which option you think will play out and why. Either way, we will know this Saturday.

-EasyPrey

Spoiler for thoughts mew:

It would be nice to see chagum go into "prince mode", I am only up to ep 17 so is there any chance of escape and having the hunters chase them thus delaying a all out bloodbath?
When dose the egg eater come into play or is merely a human assain?

[EasyPrey]

Originally Posted by kujoe

My guess?

Spoiler:

Simpler put, Chagum might give himself up. The reason is to avoid option 3, which requires no further explanation why it should be avoided. But it's not as if he can simply order them to stop. He could make it appear that way, but the implication remains the same.

Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:

Just for clarification--and correct me if I am wrong--you picked option 1. In fairness I think both Balsa and the hunters are equally hard headed. It is not exactly easy to convince either one to change their mind.

It should be noted that if the "loosing party" does not accept the decision--Chagum telling hunters that he is going with Balsa or Chagum telling Balsa that he is going with the hunters--it will still result in option #3 (bloodbath).

This Saturday's episode should be interesting . . .

About the egg eater

The egg eater is most likely not human. We learned about it in episode 14. It is probably from the water people's plane of existence (but not sure). The water people knew quite a bit about it. We know next to nothing about it.


-EasyPrey

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:

Just for clarification--and correct me if I am wrong--you picked option 1.

Spoiler:

No, I didn't. It was neither of those actually. I don't think Balsa is willing to give up Chagum, and if she does I imagine it's only because Chagum convinces her to let go. The way I imagine it, is that he goes anyway, despite what she'll say.

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:

In fairness I think both Balsa and the hunters are equally hard headed. It is not exactly easy to convince either one to change their mind.

Spoiler:

Exactly. Which is why I thought about Chagum giving himself up by his own free will. And that doesn't mean I'm picking option 2 either. Neither side will probably not budge, but Chagum might go with the Hunters in order to avoid the conflict.

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:

It should be noted that if the "loosing party" does not accept the decision--Chagum telling hunters that he is going with Balsa or Chagum telling Balsa that he is going with the hunters--it will still result in option #3 (bloodbath).

Spoiler:

Maybe. But Balsa and Shuga are pretty intelligent people. Then again, something tragic is also possible. But like I said, it's not as simple as Chagum simply ordering people around.

Moreover, Youko's situation is a different one entirely, and thus not really that comparable.

But anyway, from the looks of the preview for the next episode, this matter might not be addressed anyway. It seems like they have a plan of some sort.

[ZippyDSM]

Originally Posted by EasyPrey

Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:

Just for clarification--and correct me if I am wrong--you picked option 1. In fairness I think both Balsa and the hunters are equally hard headed. It is not exactly easy to convince either one to change their mind.

It should be noted that if the "loosing party" does not accept the decision--Chagum telling hunters that he is going with Balsa or Chagum telling Balsa that he is going with the hunters--it will still result in option #3 (bloodbath).

This Saturday's episode should be interesting . . .

About the egg eater

The egg eater is most likely not human. We learned about it in episode 14. It is probably from the water people's plane of existence (but not sure). The water people knew quite a bit about it. We know next to nothing about it.


-EasyPrey

Spoiler for mew thoughts:

and when it shows up things are going to change fast,besides that dose chagum know of his fate yet?
that would help bolster him and help him make needed dessistions..or retreat from the world either way lil by lil theya re ramping up the suspense it seems.