AnimeSuki Forums

gonzo · 2006-01-17, 16:26

Some extra thoughts:

How gets life into dolls? There are at least three ways.

(1) They have an artificial spirit. Interesting enough, the artificial spirits of the Rozen Maiden dolls can act free floating, independent of the dolls' bodies.

(2) They have Roza Mystica. This is bound to the body, it cannot be removed, but leaves the body, if the doll "dies".

These two variants are specific to Rozen Maiden. What is "death" to a Rozen Maiden? Loss of artificial spirit or loss of Roza Mystica? IMHO, Roza Mystica is not the concept of life but the concept of power ...

(3) Dolls have a soul. It is invisible. If lost, it might be gained back, under lucky circumstances. This kind of soul needs neither Roza M. nor Artificial S. Example: The clown at Jun's.

(4) Some dolls, e.g. Rozen Maiden, need winding. This is "mechanical life", sort of.

How gets life into Alice? If introduced only through Roza M. or Artifical S., we can expect not much more than a hyper-RozenMaiden. This would be a perfect girl doll, but never a perfect girl, because it will remain inhuman (whatever humanity may denote). As Shinku said: "Dolls are other than humans. They can seek for perfection."

Conclusion: Alice as the perfect girl is a contradiction in itself. So, wtf needs Alice? What is it good for? Is the Alice Game nothing else but a very special form of a robot soccer match?

Kuro · 2006-01-17, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitsura

They should have just let Suigintou died at the end of episode 1 and left it as that. Pandering to fans has never turned out well in the end. Just look at what happened to Evangelion and Gundam Shit...oops I mean Seed Destiny after the creators decided to give in to fan feedback. My only prediction for the series is that it will all be revealed in episode 12 with hints in episode 11. Just by going to the official website and reading the super vague summary for episode 11 I can guess something spoilerish must be up (death of another doll).

I must disagree. Unlike Evangelion and GSD, Rozen Maiden is actually a good anime with good direction and writing. Have some faith. Worst case scenario I think, is that the story will end with a "satisfying" ending (as in, a happy one), but still leave plenty of room for more.

Everybody through FMP: TSR was going to end on a bad note, what with everything happening (much more than RMT has going ATM), but it actually did end pretty well. I expect the same from Rozen Maiden.

grey_moon · 2006-01-17, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuro

I must disagree. Unlike Evangelion and GSD, Rozen Maiden is actually a good anime with good direction and writing. Have some faith. Worst case scenario I think, is that the story will end with a "satisfying" ending (as in, a happy one), but still leave plenty of room for more.

Everybody through FMP: TSR was going to end on a bad note, what with everything happening (much more than RMT has going ATM), but it actually did end pretty well. I expect the same from Rozen Maiden.

I have to agree with you about all of your good points about Rozen Maiden, even with the death of one of my favorite characters I was deeply sadden, but not disappointed in the anime at all (I will of course hold final judgement on the last episode

).

kitsura · 2006-01-17, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

Quite a nice episode, but a little too rushed. Too many revelations crammed into one episode (one flaw of many animes in my opinion). The drama wasn't too bad in episode 10 though. It was rather sad that Hina Ichigo left like that with such a scene...

Oh another note, shock after shock...First, we find out that the bespectacled man is Laplace, and suddenly we find out Enju is Father...And why exactly is he sorta on Barashuisho's and Laplace's side? What kind of conspiracy fo they have? Three more episodes...So I would expect explanations to fly in fast and hard, though the next episode looks more like a Maiden battle. While it seems impossible for Enju to seem to be Father due to the possible time lapse, it could be possible that he might be the descendant of the first 'Father' instead. It's a wild guess, but hey, at least it's speculation.

There are actually only 2 more episodes left till the end of the season.

kitsura · 2006-01-17, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuro

I must disagree. Unlike Evangelion and GSD, Rozen Maiden is actually a good anime with good direction and writing. Have some faith. Worst case scenario I think, is that the story will end with a "satisfying" ending (as in, a happy one), but still leave plenty of room for more.

Everybody through FMP: TSR was going to end on a bad note, what with everything happening (much more than RMT has going ATM), but it actually did end pretty well. I expect the same from Rozen Maiden.

I didn't say Rozen Maiden was bad overall. I think the inconsistency in storyline with the manga might be due to the fact that the manga writers (Peach-Pitt) didn't have a say in the story for the first season of the anime. At least for the second season they were consulted on the storyline. Other inconsistencies in character design and personalities still exist however but then they are minor issues.

Maids! Maids! Maids! · 2006-01-17, 20:21

That episode packed a huge emotional wallop. A recap and the aftermath of the events of Episode 9 followed by more tragedy: it was tough to watch. Souseiseki had entered a moral gray area, and characters that do this have very short life spans in popular fiction. Her death wasn’t a huge surprise. Hina Ichigo was another story. Moving the chibi back with Tomoe was a great idea. I’m frequently moved more by characters’ reactions to events then the events themselves.

I don’t know if we saw a retcon or not (nor do I really care), but Suiseiseki has long been ambivalent about the Alice game. (I can’t recall if she was as ambivalent when she first appeared.) And there was just no way she was going to “junk” her sister. A previous victory left a very bad taste in Shinku’s mouth, and she appears to find the game morally reprehensible. I would expect Suiseiseki to be very angry next episode and far more willing to play the game than in the past. I’ve grown very, very fond of the character. Next episode may be really hard to take.

A lot of people get angry when an author kills off a well-developed character. For about ten or fifteen minutes, I just mourn them as I would a living person. I just get over it a lot quicker. And then I feel ridiculous.

grey_moon · 2006-01-18, 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitsura

I didn't say Rozen Maiden was bad overall. I think the inconsistency in storyline with the manga might be due to the fact that the manga writers (Peach-Pitt) didn't have a say in the story for the first season of the anime. At least for the second season they were consulted on the storyline. Other inconsistencies in character design and personalities still exist however but then they are minor issues.

I thought that s1 had a good story line, but then again I'm not following the manga...

Kuro · 2006-01-20, 00:34

Well, I saw episode 10. To say it was intense would be one of the biggest understatements in anime history.

Spoiler:

Thewanderer · 2006-01-20, 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuro

Well, I saw episode 10. To say it was intense would be one of the biggest understatements in anime history.

Spoiler:

You mean episode 11?

Kuro · 2006-01-20, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

You mean episode 11?

Oops. I meant 11.

USCPharmacist · 2006-01-20, 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuro

Oops. I meant 11.

ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG I was spoiled, bastard!!!!

Thewanderer · 2006-01-20, 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by USCPharmacist

ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG I was spoiled, bastard!!!!

Ooops

But I was too. Good thing I don't mind spoilers that much

kitsura · 2006-01-20, 06:50

Just completed episode 11. And just as I predicted...

Spoiler:

Flo · 2006-01-20, 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitsura

Just completed episode 11. And just as I predicted...

Spoiler:

Hopefully we won't get "OMG Suiseiseki died! RM will suck without her!!!!" from the Sui fanbois

Muir Woods · 2006-01-21, 00:20

Saw Chinese sub of episode 11.

Spoiler for Comments on 11:

Flo · 2006-01-21, 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muir Woods

Saw Chinese sub of episode 11.

Spoiler for Comments on 11:

Spoiler for My comments and opinion:

All I see is that Gin is talking trash to Suiseiseki (and did partically nothing and just watch)

while and Barasuisou is the one that does the kill.

Probably because in the beginning, she does not want to lose any sisters so she decided to not to fight. However reality proves her wrong, her sisters fallen one by one while Shinku only at the sidelines and dodge attacks. Meanwhile Suiseiseki put her Rozen Mystica on the line so Kanaria could live just a little longer and that short period of time maybe all worth it for Suiseiseki's sacrafice. That perhaps sent a message that sometimes in order not to lose your close ones, you have to fight to protect them even if it means risking your own life for their's. But that message came too late because Shinku as of the moment was the only ones life in the Shinku and Co. I believe part of her is wordering why she never release it sooner. Now that Shinku's balanced between sibling love and fatherly affection was tilted and finally forced into a corner, she have no choice but to show her ugly side.

At least I know that Gin is risking her Rozen Mystical in hopes of saving Megu, as I see it I predict that Gin will be sitting in the sidelines and watch while waiting for the correct oppotunity, she cannot be as reckless or submit to rage like season 1 as one human life is resting on Gin's shoulders and a mistake may cost both lives. Seeing the preview it's mostly like that Bara and Shinku got a Double KO and Gin just watch and grab the Rozen Mystical when the Double KO was done. Her chance of becoming Alice is quite high, but I can't put my money on it. Anything could happen in the last episode.

There's also a possibility that Gin will pass her and Souseiseki's rozen mystical to Shinku as a final act to revive Shinku who may have fallen once to Bara in the final episode. Given Gin's past battles and conversation with Shinku, Gin probably trust Shinku to make the right choices when she become Alice (A trust and bond between rivals perhaps) and that Barasuisou cannot be trusted and her goal is probably to become a war hungry bitch

Alternatively Gin could step foward and shield her bitter rival Shinku from Bara's fatal attack and the proceed to pass her Rozen Mysticals to Shinku (Again with the trust between rivals), making her power up to Super Seiya Jin Level 4.

Nobody is allowed to hurt Shinku but Suigintou.

Forever · 2006-01-22, 03:25

Another sad episode. From ep 12 preview, it is easy to guess the final winner aka alice.

Spoiler:

KiNA · 2006-01-22, 04:11

Spoiler:

PuRpLe CryStaL · 2006-01-22, 04:41

It's sad

to see the fall of Suiseiseki and Kanaria. Kanaria has gained respect from the audience for her determination to protect Suiseiseki's Rosa Mysticas. Although Bara eventually got their Rosa Mystica in the expense of her right hand, I can't wait to see how Shinku would turn tables around when she releases her crimson of anger. To me, I find it difficult to predict the ending. I shared the same thoughts that Shinku will be the winner of Alice Game but she will not want to be Alice. I also want to know what does the OP screenshot about Shinku having tea with Jun (in the garden) implies. What will happen to Shinku if she do not want to take all the Rosa Mysticas from the defeated dolls? How will she go about resurrecting the other dolls? I hope the last episode will wrap things up nicely.

BonBon · 2006-01-22, 16:45

I take it from the above posts that we don't need ep 11 spoiler tags at this point.

Very interesting developments. It seems likely to me at this moment, judging from Rozen's reactions to developments, that he designed every single Rozen Maiden in order to make Shinku Alice, and the whole 'game' was not a battle royale after all, but a form of mental conditioning to make her WANT to become Alice.

At this point, even if she still doesn't want to fight, there is no way that Suigintou and Barasuishou are going to agree to her pacifism, so she will HAVE to either keep fighting or just give up.

2006-01-20, 00:34	Link #168
Kuro Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004	Well, I saw episode 10. To say it was intense would be one of the biggest understatements in anime history. Spoiler: Suiseiseki's loss was so sudden and so quick, that it was extremely difficult to even feel sadness for her. Nevertheless, it was tragic. But what was more emotional was how much Kanaria tried to defend Suiseiseki's Rosa Mystica after she was defeated (by Barasuishou). She really earned my respect this episode. Meanwhile, Suigintou fought an airbourne battle w/Shinku. She revealed that she can now use Souseiseki's sheers, since she took her Rosa Mystica, Watching from afar in his mansion was Rozen, who I couldn't really figure out at all. He looks distrought over the dolls fighting, but at the same time, he seemed to praise Shinku's fight. This leads me to believe that Shinku is indeed Rozen's favourite doll, and that she is most eligable to become Alice. As for why this is happening, it STILL hasn't been revealed. Even Jun, who was pleading for them to stop, wasn't able to make Rozen budge. I really don't know how episode 12 will measure up. There's still quite a bit of ground left to be covered as to the Alice Game, Rozen's true desire and the Laplace demon. I would seriously hate for it to be as simple-minded as it seems.

2006-01-20, 06:50	Link #173
kitsura King of Brave Join Date: Dec 2005	Just completed episode 11. And just as I predicted... Spoiler: not one but two dolls were killed. Now with 3 dolls left its a pretty quick battle to decide who will be Alice. I hope it will not turn out a major disappointment. Anyway I guess most people will be sad now that Suiseiseki is gone, she was very popular with fans in season 1 and 2.

2006-01-21, 00:20	Link #175
Muir Woods Disheartened and Retired Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: 加拿大 Age: 37	Saw Chinese sub of episode 11. Spoiler for Comments on 11: Suigintou combating Suisei with her twin sister's, Sousei's, blades just adds insult to injury. I was hoping for Kanaria to have a bigger role than just comedic relief, but I suppose her final honorable acts of support and protection will have to do. The lost of two (more) sisters has really pushed Shinku over the edge. Her immense blend of grief, pain, and anger she must be experiencing is unleashed through a huge mesmerizing maelstrom of pedals. What a scene. Intense indeed. Her feelings are very genuine...oh, Barasuishou and Suigintou, you have incurred the wrath of Shinku's fury. And judging from the episode 12 preview, Barasuishou will be a casualty of that wrath... I have to wonder, has Shinku always been fighting an inner war between her love for Father (or more broadly, her function/destiny as a Rozen Maiden) and her love for her sisters? Father's lines about Shinku supports this thought. This fundamental inner conflict would greatly explain her as a character and her actions.

2006-01-22, 03:25	Link #177
Forever Revealing the truth Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Age: 41	Another sad episode. From ep 12 preview, it is easy to guess the final winner aka alice. Spoiler: Shinku will win in the end. After all, she seems to rozen's personal favourite. The question is will be whether shinku will really be willing to be alice? Here is my guess for the ending. Shinku finishes sugintou and then later bara. She gets prepared to be alice. She talks to rozen. She backstabs rozen and kill him. Jun absorbs his power and restores all the dolls. Happy end. More likely ending. Shinku commits suicide after being alice. All the rozen mystica is sent back to their owners. __________________

2006-01-22, 04:41	Link #179
PuRpLe CryStaL ::Natsuki's FanGaL:: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lion City Age: 39	Kanaria It's sad to see the fall of Suiseiseki and Kanaria. Kanaria has gained respect from the audience for her determination to protect Suiseiseki's Rosa Mysticas. Although Bara eventually got their Rosa Mystica in the expense of her right hand, I can't wait to see how Shinku would turn tables around when she releases her crimson of anger. To me, I find it difficult to predict the ending. I shared the same thoughts that Shinku will be the winner of Alice Game but she will not want to be Alice. I also want to know what does the OP screenshot about Shinku having tea with Jun (in the garden) implies. What will happen to Shinku if she do not want to take all the Rosa Mysticas from the defeated dolls? How will she go about resurrecting the other dolls? I hope the last episode will wrap things up nicely.

2006-01-17, 16:26	Link #161
gonzo Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	Some extra thoughts: How gets life into dolls? There are at least three ways. (1) They have an artificial spirit. Interesting enough, the artificial spirits of the Rozen Maiden dolls can act free floating, independent of the dolls' bodies. (2) They have Roza Mystica. This is bound to the body, it cannot be removed, but leaves the body, if the doll "dies". These two variants are specific to Rozen Maiden. What is "death" to a Rozen Maiden? Loss of artificial spirit or loss of Roza Mystica? IMHO, Roza Mystica is not the concept of life but the concept of power ... (3) Dolls have a soul. It is invisible. If lost, it might be gained back, under lucky circumstances. This kind of soul needs neither Roza M. nor Artificial S. Example: The clown at Jun's. (4) Some dolls, e.g. Rozen Maiden, need winding. This is "mechanical life", sort of. How gets life into Alice? If introduced only through Roza M. or Artifical S., we can expect not much more than a hyper-RozenMaiden. This would be a perfect girl doll, but never a perfect girl, because it will remain inhuman (whatever humanity may denote). As Shinku said: "Dolls are other than humans. They can seek for perfection." Conclusion: Alice as the perfect girl is a contradiction in itself. So, wtf needs Alice? What is it good for? Is the Alice Game nothing else but a very special form of a robot soccer match?

2006-01-17, 20:21	Link #166
Maids! Maids! Maids! Tsuruya Cultist Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA	That episode packed a huge emotional wallop. A recap and the aftermath of the events of Episode 9 followed by more tragedy: it was tough to watch. Souseiseki had entered a moral gray area, and characters that do this have very short life spans in popular fiction. Her death wasn’t a huge surprise. Hina Ichigo was another story. Moving the chibi back with Tomoe was a great idea. I’m frequently moved more by characters’ reactions to events then the events themselves. I don’t know if we saw a retcon or not (nor do I really care), but Suiseiseki has long been ambivalent about the Alice game. (I can’t recall if she was as ambivalent when she first appeared.) And there was just no way she was going to “junk” her sister. A previous victory left a very bad taste in Shinku’s mouth, and she appears to find the game morally reprehensible. I would expect Suiseiseki to be very angry next episode and far more willing to play the game than in the past. I’ve grown very, very fond of the character. Next episode may be really hard to take. A lot of people get angry when an author kills off a well-developed character. For about ten or fifteen minutes, I just mourn them as I would a living person. I just get over it a lot quicker. And then I feel ridiculous.

2006-01-22, 16:45	Link #180
BonBon Rabu-rabu-zura? Join Date: Jan 2004	I take it from the above posts that we don't need ep 11 spoiler tags at this point. Very interesting developments. It seems likely to me at this moment, judging from Rozen's reactions to developments, that he designed every single Rozen Maiden in order to make Shinku Alice, and the whole 'game' was not a battle royale after all, but a form of mental conditioning to make her WANT to become Alice. At this point, even if she still doesn't want to fight, there is no way that Suigintou and Barasuishou are going to agree to her pacifism, so she will HAVE to either keep fighting or just give up.