[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Rias]

At the same time, with that scene with LD, there might be a possbility that the "man from 19 years ago" is fantasy element/only in Natushi's mind...

[Jan-Poo]

New theory.

Spoiler for episode5 ending:

Excluding the tea parties the game ends with Natsuhi confessing her crime and Battler saying his usual: "Dame da! zenzen dame da ze!"

I've thought of many interpretations:

1) Battler is finally elaborating a counterargument to destroy Erika's thesis, after an incredibly long delay.
2) Battler really is the "man of 19 years before" and he's not pleased enough with natsuhi's confession
3) Battler doesn't buy Natsuhi's reconstruction of the events of 19 years before


And it is exactly this third option that I base my theory upon. Natsuhi didn't kill that young servant and the baby. It wasn't her.
Battler must have found a hole in the narration that made him sure that it wasn't possible for her to be the real culprit.
So in other words there is this person "X" that killed he child and the servant.

but I've got more.

Beatrice's death in 1967 wasn't an accident either. Rosa believes that Beatrice didn't pay enough attention even though she repeatedly tell her to do so. But the truth is. Someone pushed her. And that person is the same person that killed the baby.

Also. Kinzo knew who that person was. And that's why he wasn't pissed at Natsuhi.

Most probable culprit: Kinzo's wife.

[narukamikun]

Hello, I'm a lurker who's finally working up the courage to theorize with you guys!

In Episode 5 we are told flat out that we have enough information to solve the Epitaph, so I thought I'd take a crack at it. I hope this isn't the wrong thread?

Anyway, my theory is that the river in the puzzle is actually a train line! I thought of this theory since I was recently in Japan and noticed that there actually used to be a station named Ayukawa in Ibaraki (see here for a Japanese Wiki article). The train line might even be the Shinkansen, since it was running already in 1983 (which is when Kinzo made the puzzle IIRC).

Spoiler for Spoiler for Episode 5:

The sea that Eva and Rosa were talking about is actually the Tokaido Line, the Eastern Sea Road. The "ten days journey" Rosa mentioned is actually ten stops along the line from Kyoto, Kinzo's hometown. Going from the route map on Wikipedia here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8D...%8D_Shinkansen, the station in question would be Mishima, or Mishimaeki to increase the number of characters in the name.

Alternately, if you take the train line to be the JR Kyoto Line instead (which runs along the Tokaido Main Line), then ten stops away would be Ibaraki. I'm not sure that either of these stations have enough letters, but it's a fun idea all the same

The reason the Ushiromiyas have so much trouble thinking of this solution is because they're all rich bastards and take the plane anyway \o/ It also explains why Eva and Erika needed to check an atlas to make sure.

Unfortunately I can't think of what the six-letter key would be so I'm rather stuck.

Does this make sense or has it been raised and dismissed already? ^^;

[Jan-Poo]

Spoiler for Episode5 epitaph:

It isn't a bad reasoning. After ep5 I also started taking in consideration the possibility that the river is a railway. This concept was already introduced by the "enoura theory", however the enoura theory has been completely denied by confirming that odawara is definitely not Kinzo's hometown. The problem I had with the railway theory is that it lacked any connection with the sea, but it looks like you have found a possible one.

The problem is that at this point if this is really the right direction, it is almost impossible for a non japanese to progress further. It is already difficult as it is to find a complete railway chart for us, certainly you cannot find it in your atlas. And if the riddle is even further based on kanji for the village and the shore it gets even more difficult.

I'd also need to better understand what Rosa said about the ten checkpoint travel. "ougon kyou" and "ougon no sato", seem to have some importance, but I can't really get this one.

[Antera Caramichael]

Well I posted it in Ep4 threat, but just in case^^

Concerning Ep2:
I will summarise the red truth of the First Twilight:

Spoiler for Chapel Murder:

-Only one key to the chapel exists.
-No door with an auto-lock exists other than Kinzo's study!
-It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key.
-When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit.

-Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door.
-Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'

-This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel.
-The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing.
-That which was inside the envelope I entrusted Maria with, was definitely the key to the chapel.
-Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

-The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
-All were killed by other people!
-When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!
-All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
-There was no simultaneous murder!!

-There was no one hiding in the chapel.
-By this, a shut-in murder like you say does not work!

I think that we can throw away the scene in the chapel because we can suppose that Beatrice wasn't there in the first place. Personally, I think that:

Spoiler for Theories for the Second Game, from the First to the 5th Twilight.:

Rosa pretended that she solved the riddle, and announce it to the sibling in the Chapel. After that, she might have wanted to make a toast and poisoned her siblings. After that, she made the scene.
She is the most suspicious one: Her daughter is convinced of Beatrice's existence, it would not be difficult for her to ask her to make the over believe that she visited them. Kyrie might have taken the advantage in order to put the pression on Krauss ("I saw that Beatrice, so now tell me who is she."). The servants.. well they are only furnitures after all =p.

Now, concerning the Closed Room, beginning by the First Twilight: The Chapel wasn't locked in the first place. If we assume that the servants were in the plot, they lied. Beatrice didn't stated in Red that the Chapel was closed in the first place. So Rosa took the key in Maria's bag, awakening intentionally Battler, then went to the Chapel, making lock and unlock the door (making it seem it was double locked by hiding it with her body), which explained this Red Truth: Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!. It isn't stated WHEN it was sealed and for how long! After that, it is not very difficult to force herself to vomit (Try to put your fingers in your mouth and pull the small thing in your throat =p).
Concerning the Second Twilight: Jessica, Gohda and Kanon went to Beatrice room, where Rosa was sure that Jessica, with her temperament, would go, which explained the letter and the state of the room. Then Jessica and Kanon went to her room.
But: Godha didn't went back directly to the others like we thought. For a reason X, Gohda was forced to kill both Kanon and Jessica, which explained why Jessica was stabbed in her back if the murderer was someone she knew, moreover someone who was accompanying her. After that, he transported Kanon's corpse to another spot where he was sure no one than the servants would go: The kitchen.
With that, we can solve the Red TruthThey definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon!.
Alternative: They wouldn't mistake any different person for Kanon but was Kanon here in the first place? It isn't stated in red that Kanon was in the room in the first place.
So Nanjo and Kumasawa were killed by the other servants for another reason... if they were killed! No one except the servants saw their corpses and their Death statut wasn't stated in Red a this point of the game!
But if they were, then it could be explain easily: When they saw Kanon corpse in the kitchen/servant room, they freaked out, because if Kanon was killed, where was the assurance that they would be kept alive? For some reason, it lead the other 3 to kill them.

[Megaolix]

Hello everyone, I'm another lurker who decided to post his thinking

I have another theory for the second game.

Spoiler for Umineko from game 2 to 4:

For the chapel, I will borrow what I saw from a video on youtube (from TahYllis), since there's nothing that can destroy the theory yet.

First of all, if you check closely everything said in red for the chapel, it was never stated WHEN the key was given to Maria. And just that breaks it open, since Maria could have received it after the murders and it would still respect all the red.

We can't trust everything we see after all... It's easy to suspect Rosa in that game, but it could be a trap.

As for the fake Kanon, something bugs me... Why were Nanjo and Kumasawa staked last if they died before Gohda, George and Shannon? Didn't Lambdadelta mention that Beatrice made a mistake in this game with the overkill? If this is it.... Then those two weren't dead when we believed it. And for me, that makes them highly suspicious.

And now for something from the third game... Nanjo was killed by someone who was supposed dead. Eva lived. Because the messages in the two bottles said everyone should have been dead, Ange thought that something went wrong in the third game.

So with this, I think Nanjo's killer received a fatal wound that ended him after killing the doctor.... If it is the culprit, nothing wrong. If it was a real victim, then I can think of only one reason for them to kill the doctor.

As for Eva... As a theory put on by TahYllis(youtueb account) said, paranoia and bordering on insanity after both her husband and George's death, she saw Battler as the culprit. Didn't Ange herself realized that Eva may not have been the culprit at the end of her journey?

And that's about it. Just one last thing I would like to confirm on fifth game:

Spoiler for 5th game:

When Kinzo gave the baby to Natsuhi, did he say something? Some thing like, say... That this child would be his -grandson- maybe?

Blood relation was never specified in the red after all...

[Antera Caramichael]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Spoiler for Umineko from game 2 to 4:

First of all, if you check closely everything said in red for the chapel, it was never stated WHEN the key was given to Maria.
And just that breaks it open, since Maria could have received it after the murders and it would still respect all the red.

Spoiler for Response:

That which was inside the envelope I entrusted Maria with, was definitely the key to the chapel.
Entrusted is pretty vague, but for me it is still give to someone who accept of taking charge of it. So she has to meet the culprit and since she was always with the cousins (and therefore Battler), the only moment she could have been untrusted the key was in the Rose garden.
Furthermore:
Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!!

So she was entrusted the key before October 5 00:00 AM

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Spoiler for Umineko from game 2 to 4:

As for the fake Kanon, something bugs me... Why were Nanjo and Kumasawa staked last if they died before Gohda, George and Shannon? Didn't Lambdadelta mention that Beatrice made a mistake in this game with the overkill? If this is it.... Then those two weren't dead when we believed it. And for me, that makes them highly suspicious.

Spoiler for Response:

Indeed, Beato never stated in Red that Nanjo and Kumasawa were dead, so we can even even doubt their death or living statut.

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Spoiler for Umineko from game 2 to 4:

And now for something from the third game... Nanjo was killed by someone who was supposed dead. Eva lived. Because the messages in the two bottles said everyone should have been dead, Ange thought that something went wrong in the third game.

Spoiler for Ep3 Red Truth:

Kinzo is dead
Krauss is dead
Natsuhi is dead
Hideyoshi is dead
George is dead
Rudolf is dead
Kyrie is dead
Rosa is dead
Maria is dead
Genji is dead
Shannon is dead
Kanon is dead
Gohda is dead
Kumasawa is dead
Nanjo is dead
The 15 people mentioned are dead
Battler is alive
Eva is alive
Jessica is alive
Eva was with you the whole time.
So committing a crime was impossible for her.
Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit.
Ushiromiya Jessica has not committed murder

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Spoiler for Umineko frome game 2 to 4:

So with this, I think Nanjo's killer received a fatal wound that ended him after killing the doctor.... If it is the culprit, nothing wrong. If it was a real victim, then I can think of only one reason for them to kill the doctor.

Spoiler for Response:

And? Where is his corpse or why isn't any traces of blood?

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Spoiler for Umineko from game 2 to 4:

As for Eva... As a theory put on by TahYllis(youtueb account) said, paranoia and bordering on insanity after both her husband and George's death, she saw Battler as the culprit. Didn't Ange herself realized that Eva may not have been the culprit at the end of her journey?

Exactly, this is what I think to be the more plausible concerning Battler's death.

Originally Posted by Megaolix

And that's about it. Just one last thing I would like to confirm on fifth game:

Spoiler for 5th game:

When Kinzo gave the baby to Natsuhi, did he say something? Some thing like, say... That this child would be his -grandson- maybe?

Blood relation was never specified in the red after all...

Spoiler for Response:

Nothing has been said concerning the baby, we don't even know if he really existed in the first place.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Spoiler for 5th game:

When Kinzo gave the baby to Natsuhi, did he say something? Some thing like, say... That this child would be his -grandson- maybe?

Blood relation was never specified in the red after all...

Spoiler for ep5:

I don't remember if this was actually said by someone, however in theory that baby was a fukuin child. This is what Natsuhi believes, but it's probably not the truth. Anyway since Natsuhi believed it was a fukuin child, then Kinzo never said that child was actually blood related to the ushiromiya.

[Megaolix]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Spoiler for ep5:

I don't remember if this was actually said by someone, however in theory that baby was a fukuin child. This is what Natsuhi believes, but it's probably not the truth. Anyway since Natsuhi believed it was a fukuin child, then Kinzo never said that child was actually blood related to the ushiromiya.

Spoiler for Episode 5:

Not what I meant. If Battler is that baby, then he won't be related by blood. What I meant is: Did Kinzo consider him his grandson, even if not of blood?

Then again, Battler was unable to say that Asumu was his mother, even if she's the one who raised him. So I guess there's no reason for me to think about it too much.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

Spoiler for Episode 5:

Not what I meant. If Battler is that baby, then he won't be related by blood. What I meant is: Did Kinzo consider him his grandson, even if not of blood?

Then again, Battler was unable to say that Asumu was his mother, even if she's the one who raised him. So I guess there's no reason for me to think about it too much.

Spoiler for episode5:

Take what I say with a grain of salt because my knowledge of japanese is far from being perfect, I don't remember Kinzo specifically saying that he considered that child his grandson. However! He did tell Natsuhi to raise that baby as if it was her and krauss' child, and of course that meant Kinzo designated that child as the future successor of the Ushiromiya family after Krauss.

[Aebliss]

I have a speculation, but which is based on the witches being actual witches, and delves into the motivation of one of them. Feel free to ignore it if you like. ^^;

Spoiler for Spoiler for games five and six:

Is it possible that Bernkastel has become suicidal? Introducing a character like Erika, breaking the parameters of the game, and ending Beatrice like that are basically a repeat of what she did in the Hinamizawa game with Lambdadelta, right? Bernkastel won that round, but the ultimate result was that her mortal origin, Furude Rika, abandoned her. I personally think the whole dead-eyed look may be the result of Bernkastel having been cast off instead of being one with the being she was born from.

In the anime at least, Bernkastel states that boredom is the only poison that can kill a witch. But she also states that she is the cruelest witch of all, who will destroy her opponent no matter what. It seems to me that the only opponent a prideful witch would acknowledge as a worthy adversary (under normal circumstances) would be another witch. If Bernkastel is growing bored, can not effectively revitalize herself now she has been cast off, and is looking death in the face, I doubt she'd let just herself go because she would be survived by other witches, who could ridicule her memory.

Look at Furudo Erika, 'the witch of truth', who is determined to 'expose the truth behind witches'. Isn't the mystique an important part of the witches' power? If Bernkastel's pawn exposes 'the truth behind witches', wouldn't that kill or at least severely cripple them all? Bernkastel would have the greatest murder/suicide-combo of her kind ... She'd die cackling, knowing that.

[Leinne]

My theory abouot the baby:

Spoiler for Theory:

I still think that baby is Rosa's. She wasn't on a trip with her friends, she was recovering i n a clicnic, but she couldn't accept that her own baby went to Natsuhi and probably killed the maid or odered (bribe) someon to do it.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Leinne

My theory abouot the baby:

Spoiler for Theory:

I still think that baby is Rosa's. She wasn't on a trip with her friends, she was recovering i n a clicnic, but she couldn't accept that her own baby went to Natsuhi and probably killed the maid or odered (bribe) someon to do it.

She was a middle schooler at that time!!! °_° Considering it takes nine months to give birth to a child, you are suggesting that she got pregnant at 13!

[Tjfarmer]

So Rosa was 14 around that time? So that means shes around 33, and Eva is 50.... damn shes 17 years younger than Eva.

[Jan-Poo]

14 at max. Middle school in japan goes from 12 to 14. So she could have been 12 for what we know.

Well... actually I would exclude she was 12. Because Rosa says "about 20 years ago", and Rudolf replied "So when you were a middle schooler". This means that 20 years before (1966) Rosa was already a middle schooler. This means in 1967 she was at least on the second year.

Anyway there's a huge age difference between Rosa and Eva, while Eva and Krauss are only 2 years apart. Rudolf however should be 5-10 years younger than Krauss.

[Tjfarmer]

Does anyone know the year they moved onto the island? And for that matter, the year Kinzo's wife died?

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Anyway there's a huge age difference between Rosa and Eva, while Eva and Krauss are only 2 years apart. Rudolf however should be 5-10 years younger than Krauss.

"0_o Wait, where was it stated Eva and Krauss are only two years apart?

[Jan-Poo]

Kinzo's wife = 0 info

But the year they moved on the island is "about 30 years before". so 1956ca

It is stated that the Rokkenjima mansion was built in 1952, so they might have actually moved there between 1952 and 1956.

Also Kawabata in 1998 says that about 50 years before he started transporting goods to the Kuwadorian. This places the date at around 1948 which is even before the Mansion was built, hinting that the kuwadorian might be an even older construction which was there even before Kinzo purchased the whole island.

Originally Posted by Volcanic

"0_o Wait, where was it stated Eva and Krauss are only two years apart?

Episode3

You couldn't have said that Krauss, as my older brother by two years, tried at all to become deserving of the Ushiromiya family name, and his effort was pathetic compared to mine.

That happens when Eva reminisces the past where Krauss made that nice Tea-sugar and Women-education comparison.

[Tjfarmer]

It must be 1952, because Eva-Beato was a high-schooler, and Eva would be in Highschool in 1952. So....

Eva was 16-17 when they moved to the Island
Krauss was 18-19
Rudolf was... 8-13?
Rosa was not born yet, or maybe just a newborn.

Natsuhi married Krauss when she was 16 I think I read, which was 30 years ago, so she moved onto the Island in 1956 probably.... I think. all these dates are way to confusing for some reason.

[Jan-Poo]

Natsuhi being 16 when she married is a japanese wiki speculation, it was never confirmed. This hypothesis most probably comes from the fact that they tried to shrink as much as possible the age difference between Eva and Rosa (by laws 16 is the minimum required for a woman to marry).
Natsuhi was probably very young, but she's 5 years younger than Krauss, and I doubt Krauss married at 21 considering he had to attend university. My bet is that Natsuhi was 18.

Rudolf was confirmed to be still in elementary school when they moved to Rokkenjima, so 6-12 years old.

Eva being a high schooler is most probable, Rosa at that time wasn't born or had just been born as you said.