2011-07-19, 20:08 | Link #14901 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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This story is still under the radar, which is unfortunate considering the scale of the operation and the implications.
Obama-Contra http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...ama-Contra.htm
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2011-07-19, 20:38 | Link #14902 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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2011-07-19, 21:28 | Link #14903 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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Regan was just so convenient with his "I can't Remeber" Alzheimer. That Creep Oliver North should be rotting in prison except Bush Sr need him to keep his mouth shut because he up to neck in it. So unless you are saying the Obama admin is trying arm a insurgency in Central/South America. This is not even close to the same seriousness.
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Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2011-07-19 at 21:54. |
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2011-07-19, 22:35 | Link #14904 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
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Really? That's news to me. 30,000 dead sure seems like an insurgency... Considering Obama made the statement that 90% of all guns used by the drug cartels come from the US, it is poetic justice that IT IS HIS administration's BATFE selling the drug dealers the guns. US border agents have died over this nonsense from Obama's BATFE, no Americans died as a result of Iran-Contra. So in a sense you're right Xellos, comparing the two isn't fair since the selling of guns to Drug-Dealers who cross our border with impunity and have killed thousands in Mexico is far worse. I realize this makes the Obama administration look really bad, but facts are facts and this administration is responsible for the deaths related to these weapons.
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2011-07-19, 22:55 | Link #14905 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Syrian military assaults intensify on Homs, 16 killed
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76F26I20110720 The massace is still ongoing for 5 months I belive...
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2011-07-20, 00:18 | Link #14906 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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This "Fast and Furious" operation can't really be laid at Obama's feet. The BATF has a very long history of many administrations of being a bunch of incompetent thugs and idiots (yes, I said that out loud). Now, if the Justice department and Obama's administration try to sidestep/cover up... then my aggravation for *that* is up. I already view the Obama administration as just "center right lite" as it is.
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2011-07-20, 00:47 | Link #14907 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
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This will probably be laid at Eric Holder's feet. Even if he didn't know about it, the BATFE is still his responsibility, sucks I know, but unfortunately that's the price of power. Oh, and you are absolutely correct about the ATF. They've been a blight on the US government for years. Remember this little goodie from the 1990s. The so called "Good ol boy round-up" where ATF agents dressed up like KKK members and had a dreadful sign at the entrance to the event. From the Justice department's own online files: http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/9603/exec.htm To really make your blood boil scroll down that report to the "racist signs" under "1. Substantiated allegations." Yeah, our tax dollars at work. Maybe with all this talk of cutting spending it might be time to ax this prohibition-era agency?
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2011-07-20, 02:32 | Link #14909 | |||
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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And I think this is the reason why this is under the radar. While it is something that can be used against the Obama administration its also bad for the cause of the "conservative/right" gun owners. Quote:
Still, I think these lobby groups are not the only ones to blame. My heretical thesis is, that voters naturally lean center right on average, so a party that ignores this is going to shoot itself. An individual voter's ideas might be progressive but in the end political reality shows that voters prefer the egoistic approach (preserving as much benefits as possible for themselves) - in this regard the average voter is completely in line with the super wealthy elite. This is why I think it is not just the influential lobby groups but it is also this nation's egoism that causes the nation to have the government that it has now.
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2011-07-20, 05:14 | Link #14910 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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Iran says shot down a U.S. spy plane over nuclear site
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...76J1WP20110720 Wondering if it's true...
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2011-07-20, 07:35 | Link #14912 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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how does the fact that the U.S usually claims loss of aircraft as "Technical failures" also translates into the current Iranian claims being true ?
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2011-07-20, 10:32 | Link #14914 | ||
Senior Member
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Infact, I'm waiting for more cases to hit the Supreme Court to destroy some of the current Gun Laws that I view as Unconstitutional. |
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2011-07-20, 11:05 | Link #14915 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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You know, like what Obama is doing with the rebels in Libya. We're trying to support freedom fighters. Drug Cartels aren't freedom fighters, they're organized criminals, and that's the difference. It wasn't a matter of whose life was worth more, it was a matter of trying to help people in the case of the Contras, verses a rogue US agency trying to justify its existence by selling to criminals who use terroristic methods. ATF was trying to create a problem(sell assault rifles to criminals), to offer a solution (more gun control), to further their agenda (a larger budget for their agency to enforce the new laws). Quote:
What this situation proves is that the Mexican Cartel guns aren't supplied by civilian gun-dealers, they're being supplied by the BATFE so no measure of gun-control would stop them from acquiring weapons. On top of that, Mexico has a total ban on private ownership of guns, yet the Cartels are better armed then the cops and equal to the military. Mexico is a prime example of the total failure of gun-control. I also don't see this as a "right-left" issue. Many Democrats own military style handguns and rifles in this country. Liberals in Colorado--and many western states--are of the "gun-totting" variety so this is an American verses Anti-American issue since the 2nd Amendment is not solely a conservative right but rather one shared by all citizens. I'm not conversative--believe it or not--but I am very much in support of our hoplite society. Quote:
The media has hyped up stories and events that favor more violations of the 2nd amendment while they downplay or totally ignore stories that support the right to keep and bear arms.
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2011-07-20, 11:39 | Link #14916 |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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I don't really care about the issue you are trying to discussion (I give you points for using hoplophobia in a sentence...though I've never once believed America or its media is hoplophobic), but I have to point out that the Contras were not simply rebels, but were terrorists whose main method of warfare was to indiscriminately attack civilians, often killing the men and raping the women, not to mention destroying non-military/government property, etc. That is not to say the Sandinista government was any better (they were also plagued with human rights violations), but the Contras are not really comparable to the current Libyan rebel forces (most of the pro-Contra nonsense was developed by the Reagan administration, who simply wished to combat the pro-Socialist/USSR Sandinista government).
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2011-07-20, 11:59 | Link #14917 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: classified
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However, I was trying to give Obama a pass on this considering that the Libyan rebels are backed by Al Qaeda. That's why I was pointing out the Contras as freedom fighters verses just plain organized crime like the Mexican Cartels. Nevertheless, no matter how you slice it, the BATFE has been engaging in unethical and criminal behavior for many decades now (since 1968 and the NFA of that year) and they need to be abolished.
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2011-07-20, 13:35 | Link #14918 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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^None of this is an actual reflection on Obama. The Bureau of Alcohol et al is responsible, not Obama. This is not like the Iran-Contra affair where top advisors to Reagan, and possibly even Reagan, was involved in the illegal sale of firearms to non-allies in order to fund terrorist. This is a mistake. A stupid tragic mistake that has cost innocent lives (and a few American lives), but a mistake none the less. Whether BATFE should be abolished is an interesting question, but it is a question seperate from your article which lays the blame at Obama's feet rather than at the head of BATFE.
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2011-07-20, 14:01 | Link #14919 | |
blinded by blood
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"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. "From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship." This is pretty much exactly what we're seeing... though I think times have changed a bit. In his day we would have seen a dictatorship. In our day, we'll see 80s-cyberpunk style megacorps.
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2011-07-20, 14:39 | Link #14920 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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