Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[JediNight]

Think of it this way -- if this was a 1 cour show we would currently be at episode 2.5

[Triple_R]

One positive I'll mention here - I think the writing staff for this anime has a clear "end game" in mind, and that they're carefully building up to that (perhaps too carefully, thus testing some people's patience ).

I think we're eventually going to get some big reveals pertaining to Gai and Inori, and when they come down, this show will pick up a lot. Admittedly just a gut feeling I have, but nonetheless it's a strong feeling for me.

There's some consistent character hints with Gai and Inori that point towards something much bigger, imo. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but the fact I can see these consistent hints already is promising to me.

[Tiresias]

So, I've abandoned this anime after episode two, but then at the off-chance I was bored enough I noticed that someone made a comparison with Command & Conquer - Laser Satellite, charismatic terrorist leader) - so I figure "hey, maybe I'll watch this for the lulz" (not the best reason, I notice)...but then I remembered the one thing that had greatly bugged me in episode 2, so before I decide whether to watch or not I'm gonna ask people here (I'm fine being spoilered):

When Ayase's Endlave started to get shot by Darryl's, we saw her visibly moaning(?) in pain. Was there ever a reason for that, the reason why the damage must be sent to the pilot's body instead of just using visual damage indicator (status bar, numbers, diagrams, etc)? To put it into perspective, that would be like rigging the computers that controls Predator Drones with explosives, and when the drones get destroyed the operators would also die

[djmaca]

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

Those are things that could be explained later though. That's not exactly something that the first five episodes need to explain.

Which is why it's so unconvincing for me. Who knows: maybe the whole plot of the story revolves around Shu, Gai and how they are supposed to be the ones using the Void Genome. If we could have just a general idea of what happened that made Gai go against GHQ or what is he really fighting for....

Spoiler for Wild Mass Guess:

Shu and Gai are experimental soldiers that are supposed to be equipped with the Void Genome. In the flashback, the two were playing at a wrecked bridge and Shuu jumps across, trusting on Gai's words, and fell, getting amnesia where he doesn't remember Gai. Maybe Gai tricked him since Shu's a much better match for the genome and Gai escapes leaving Shu for dead. The experiment is put aside and he was taken into care of Dr.Ouma who treated Shu like her own child.

Also anyone noticed that Ouma in reverse is "Maou(Demon King/Lord)", maybe, and this show is named Guilty CROWN.

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One positive I'll mention here - I think the writing staff for this anime has a clear "end game" in mind, and that they're carefully building up to that (perhaps too carefully, thus testing some people's patience ).

I think we're eventually going to get some big reveals pertaining to Gai and Inori, and when they come down, this show will pick up a lot. Admittedly just a gut feeling I have, but nonetheless it's a strong feeling for me.

There's some consistent character hints with Gai and Inori that point towards something much bigger, imo. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but the fact I can see these consistent hints already is promising to me.

Well, I liked Durarara the whole way through, and that series was pretty much careful build up with hints scattered throughout the episodes as well (admittedly, the payoffs weren't the greatest ).

And yeah, my anticipating of knowing the result of the build up is why I'm staying with this show. I've said before that there have been films or shows that I've hated most of the way through, but when I got to the end, it changed everything. There has to be something mysterious about Inori and Gai (why does Gai have that power, and why did he seem to know Shu as a kid?). I just hope the reveal isn't as lame as Fractale's.

Also anyone noticed that Ouma in reverse is "Maou(Demon King/Lord)", maybe, and this show is named Guilty CROWN.

That's actually pretty clever. Hopefully, something good comes from that. Because if Shu starts to become king-like in this series, that'd really jump-start my opinion of him. I mentioned before that I'm a big fan of wimps who get power and start to become consumed by it, and I thought Shu was going to be that after Episode 1.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One positive I'll mention here - I think the writing staff for this anime has a clear "end game" in mind, and that they're carefully building up to that (perhaps too carefully, thus testing some people's patience ).

It's Shu replaces Gai as resident asshole. Or Shu unintentionally saves the world. All of which pretty crappy and state as well as objective-wise and plot-wise empty and uninspiring. I kind of doubt we'll actually get a clear answer of why everyone is fighting though, what with all the running around the bush they're doing: "we can't tell you our reason for fighting because you're not comrade lv10 yet; now go put your butt on the line and levelup"

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

When Ayase's Endlave started to get shot by Darryl's, we saw her visibly moaning(?) in pain. Was there ever a reason for that, the reason why the damage must be sent to the pilot's body instead of just using visual damage indicator (status bar, numbers, diagrams, etc)? To put it into perspective, that would be like rigging the computers that controls Predator Drones with explosives, and when the drones get destroyed the operators would also die

I will try to explain this for you. This situation is very similar to many mecha series, starting as far back as Neon Genesis Evangelion, if not earlier. It has to do with the user being connected mentally with the mecha in order to control it, which creates a "sympathy" level. It is a sort of sync with the object, so any damage also receives negative feedback to the user. So if too much damage occur, the brain could go into overload.

I hope this is sufficient, but I am sure there are better experts out there who could explain this in more detail. It is very common in mecha, so it is often taken for granted.

Originally Posted by karice67

Back to more important issues, we're like 5 episodes into a 22-episode plot-driven series - which pretty much means we're still in the 'exposition' stage - for both plot AND characters. Can't we give the creators TIME to actually lay out where they're going properly?

As for Shu, I don't find him THAT mopey, at least not yet, nor do I find all the 'contrivances' he's been subjected to B&W either. If anything, the context of his friend's betrayal is something I hope Shu remembers - even if it's only taught him that thus far that he can't take people at face value, I think it's important for him to remember that there are usually understandable reasons, even if one cannot say they are 'good'.

Furthermore, episode 5 gave him something to take confidence from, so hopefully he'll start finding his own answers from here.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. Shu's character is barely developed right now, and I do expect a lot more from him. He has shown signs of determination, but getting shafted all the time is tough. Furthermore, he has not done anything morally questionable, yet.

As I mention to Chaos2Frozen earlier, I expect his character to change around the 8-9 episode mark, with no later than the 12th. It is a long series.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I will try to explain this for you. This situation is very similar to many mecha series, starting as far back as Neon Genesis Evangelion, if not earlier. It has to do with the user being connected mentally with the mecha in order to control it, which creates a "sympathy" level. It is a sort of sync with the object, so any damage also receives negative feedback to the user. So if too much damage occur, the brain could go into overload.

I can somewhat understand why it was necessary in Evangelion: the machines must be able to replicate human-like movements, so the extra sensitive control link might be unfortunately necessary.

But AFAIK Endlave movements aren't that sophisticated; there's only pre-programmed draw, shoot, holster, and move (and with boosters instead of complex, actual leg movements).

And the main advantage of remote-controlled war machines (like the Predator drone I mentioned before) is that the operator is safe from harm. Making the pilot experience pain seems counterproductive

It is very common in mecha, so it is often taken for granted.

I don't think it's that common. Macross Frontier has a neural interface too, but IIRC the plane doesn't translate every damage it's taken into pain (it's hackable, though)

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Tiresias

And the main advantage of remote-controlled war machines (like the Predator drone I mentioned before) is that the operator is safe from harm. Making the pilot experience pain seems counterproductive

I guess the only assumption we can make is that the neural link is more integrately connected, where they cannot prevent a feedback when damage is incurred. The mechas do have more human movements and features, if not completely perfected, however.

Originally Posted by Tiresias

I don't think it's that common. Macross Frontier has a neural interface too, but IIRC the plane doesn't translate every damage it's taken into pain (it's hackable, though)

I guess I should say that it is in many series instead of common. A few that I can think of are

Neon Genesis Evangelion
Soukyuu no Fafner
Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventures
Sousei no Aquarion

I remember vague memories and scenes from other series, but I just can't think of them right now.

[felix]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I guess the only assumption we can make is that the neural link is more integrately connected, where they cannot prevent a feedback when damage is incurred. The mechas do have more human movements and features, if not completely perfected, however.

I think they're going with the virus is so advanced it infects your "soul" kind of plot, since when Shu first went berserk the guys piloting the mechs were shown infected with apocalypse afterwards.

[Nightengale]

Wild Massive Crack Guessing on a random spur here. Not to be taken seriously. ;p

Daryl is the kid from Shu's childhood amnesia.

Gai's actually a Void.

Don't ask me what lead to these random craziness, it just happens.

[JediNight]

I dunno about it being the reverse of Maou. I was thinking more "Ouma" as related to procreation -- the Ouma is on the receiving end of insemination, isn't it? AKA receiving genetic info -- much like he is taking from people for the Void genome.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

...My main problem is that GC is boring. I wouldn't say it's as boring as Shana III or 5 cm per second....

Hmm. Since 5cm/sec is my favorite anime movie ever (maybe tied with Whisper of the Heart), I can see we are looking for different things from an anime. I'm sorry you can't get the pleasure from Guilty Crown that I am getting -- or from 5cm/sec, for that matter -- but I understand where you're coming from. Comparing this to 5cm/sec makes me think there may be more to this show than I realized, lol.

[felix]

@Kaoru Chujo

It's maybe not so much taste as time. 5cm per second is relatively slow burner; I enjoy that kind once in a while but generally important stuff happening faster or being asserted by the plot as important is way better for weekly shows. In GC a lot of stuff we know has very little bearing on the plot; particularly when it comes to Shu. So Shu happens to have all this stuff that's important to him happen but his existence is pretty shallow in the bigger picture so it's hard to feel like anything happening to him is actually of any relevence. There's very little on the line too—how many times was he in danger of dieing for example? Very few, and even then it was very isolated and for relatively short bursts. Now that's not necesarly bad in itself, but it can be pretty boring if you're going into it with the expectation to get solid entertainment and get it now.

The biggest problem here is this is a mecha show. Though it's pacing is that of a sci-fi drama. Mecha shows tend to have the easiest formula when it comes to asserting the importance of the protagonist: you just have a overarching doom-plot for which the protagonist is either the key or the only-key to ending it, then you just throw danger after danger under cricumstances where he's about to die but somehow gets out. GC doesn't do that. Shu is never in danger or the key to anything, he's essentially just a bio-weapon with a love interest. The funeral parlor are the key to the problem, they are the ones with their necks on the chopping block when shit hits the fan. So what does that leave us with? The daily life of Shu? Is it even surprising many aren't pleased with how it's going...

To be honest if not for the discussion I wouldn't even be following this one. This is one of those shows I would just wait to finish and check general opinion and summaries to see if it amounted to anything or fell on it's ass by the end. It's pretty obvious from the episode pacing the writers weren't thinking too much on how this would work in a 20min episode format since the tention between episodes, every good show needs, just isn't there! You know those deep questions that they tease you with every episode or those ticking time bombs that you don't know when are going to go off or be stopped if they're going to be stopped. So far GC had one, the pen, and they just made it into comic relief and had Shu completely forget about it, har har, well played GC.

[JediNight]

I think it's a logical fallacy to assume it's a mecha show simply because it has some mechas in it. The mechas are an ancillary part of the show -- the focus is on the characters and politics IMHO.

Much like Code Geass had mechas in it, but they weren't the focus of the show (for S1 at least). The focus was on tactics and Lelouch keeping things secret.

[felix]

Originally Posted by JediNight

I think it's a logical fallacy to assume it's a mecha show simply because it has some mechas in it. The mechas are an ancillary part of the show -- the focus is on the characters and politics IMHO.

Much like Code Geass had mechas in it, but they weren't the focus of the show (for S1 at least). The focus was on tactics and Lelouch keeping things secret.

Shu has been fighting only mechs.
The show starts with mechs.
We barely see any of the soldiers as anything but fodder or decoration.
The things they compared it with suggests they want a mech show.
Every time a significant event happened we got mech goodness.
Who's the obstacle in every battle... the mechs.

I don't disagree with your assesment that it's more about other stuff. But I do disagree that the other stuff is politics and character development when it fails so miserably at both. Looks to me like it's all just about Shu and Shu's teenage problems. And that's my point, if only it wasn't it would have been much better!

The show is far too blunt (in more ways then one) when it comes to just about everything. If they wanted political goodness they should have avoided the super power cartoony nonsense. Politics in GC: antibodies kill everyone, governments abonds it's citenzens, mad scientists command armies and can use death-sats that defy even the most absurd weapon of mass destruction treaties. Really? You want me to take that seriously GC? On the other hand, if they wanted character development they should actually focused on character development—in particular of all the member of funeral parlor. The blitz tactics along with absurd missions are hardly good mediums to insert character development where it counts. The entire air around all the characters, including the school ones is so stale it's a miracle we even get the dialog we have. And the excessive fanservice makes it hard to take any character development seriously on the female side of things. Ayase is suffering as much as Inori from it—did we get character development or was that scene just rigged to show boobs/ass/etc.

tl;dr I'll give credit to GC for politics and character development when I see it done seriously and at no point before that.

[hyl]

I can't understand why people hate and criticize everything. The main point for me is that the show is enjoyable , the settings are great and most of the characters look great and are interesting personality wise.
Eventhough i can understand why people are nitpicking, but that's like nitpicking at code geass R2. That plot made little sense, some of the characters were horribly written, the odd use of a cliffhanger at the end of every episode were getting silly and it was not nearly as good as the first season except at the end. But i am sure most of you still enjoyed it.

As for Gai, he may act like an a-hole, but we don't know enough of his character yet to judge him. Also if it was me, i would not immediately trust (as in telling everything)a guy (in this case Shu) who refused my offer the first time when i was being nice.

[JediNight]

Other thing about disliking the totally chronic complainers -- do they forget anime is rarely aimed at an age demographic higher than maybe 18-21? It's still popular with people older than that in many cases, but it's like trying to take a really critical eye to young adult literature.

[DragoZERO]

Let's stop with the complaints for now. That goes to everyone who is complaining about the show and those who are complaining about the complainers. Let's give the series some time since there are a lot of elements that still need to be drawn out.

Originally Posted by djmaca

The plot seems unconvincing mainly because there are tons of questions still left unanswered: Examples are "What's Gai's real agenda here?" and "What happened between Gai and Shuu that made Shuu unable to remeber Gai?"

I think that's called "mystery" and it's one of the things that keeps people coming back for more. I really want to know how Shu and his mother tie into all of this too. There is definitely a lack of coincidence here if you ask me.

[felix]

Originally Posted by hyl

I can't understand why people hate and criticize everything. The main point for me is that the show is enjoyable , the settings are great and most of the characters look great and are interesting personality wise.
Eventhough i can understand why people are nitpicking, but that's like nitpicking at code geass R2. That plot made little sense, some of the characters were horribly written, the odd use of a cliffhanger at the end of every episode were getting silly and it was not nearly as good as the first season except at the end. But i am sure most of you still enjoyed it.

As for Gai, he may act like an a-hole, but we don't know enough of his character yet to judge him. Also if it was me, i would not immediately trust (as in telling everything)a guy (in this case Shu) who refused my offer the first time when i was being nice.

Originally Posted by JediNight

Other thing about disliking the totally chronic complainers -- do they forget anime is rarely aimed at an age demographic higher than maybe 18-21? It's still popular with people older than that in many cases, but it's like trying to take a really critical eye to young adult literature.

I dislike it, therefore I write about why I dislike it; just as you write about why you like it. It's not like I'm hating on it, though I don't deny hating how some things are handled in it, that's still a valid way of expressing an opinion.

Many of us don't feel forced to like it by those expressing positive opinions so I don't understand why you both feel you need to take this meta-defensive stance to protect yourselvs from ours. It's like I'm not allowed to dislike the current progress just because you liked every bit of it. Get a damn grip people! Your opinion is not some shared resource, it's yours, and I can't really do anything about it even if I try.

Also, it's not like those of us that are still here have abandoned all hope of the show becoming anything good, or just hate everything about it. I think it's pretty unanymous that the show has top notch animation quality and really nice aesthetics (overall). And at least and some potential to drag it's plot back up.

And honestly who cares about what demographic it's aimed at? I never watched anything in my life because it had some sticker with my age on it. Not anime or anything else. Politically correct content be damned.

Originally Posted by djmaca

"What happened between Gai and Shuu that made Shuu unable to remeber Gai?"

Where was it confirmed Gai met Shu in the past?

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Let's stop with the complaints for now. That goes to everyone who is complaining about the show and those who are complaining about the complainers.

Your law is to broad in scope.