2013-03-19, 16:08 | Link #12901 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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the impression that the parties read the first manga in the romantic genre.
or anyone has doubts that Nishino will come exactly the same way as the other authors. as is usual in this genre. in the romantic genre of the main characters are always a threat to break, a temporary misunderstanding, local drama and the like. this is a typical method. but it never leads to "real" break. especially since there is no alternative - no two equal female protagonists who fight for Zen. Such as in kokoro connect. the main characters - exactly 2 - Medaka and Zen. obvious that Nishino just need to release new chapter. all quite banal. |
2013-03-19, 16:22 | Link #12902 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Also, have you actually read the latest chapter? What exactly are you talking about, as far as being one or two chapters from Medaka's return being relevant? We are talking about the results and implications of Zenkichi growing out of his devotion to Medaka, as well as the dramatic goodbye from Medaka which followed. It has not even been one chapter since that happened. |
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2013-03-19, 16:27 | Link #12903 | |
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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I am not trying to prove anything. I am simply stating that as of the latest chapter of Medaka Box, it is currently unclear whether Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship is actually over. That's all I'm saying. I'm not making any presumptions or assumptions or analysis of what is going on in their heads. None of it. I said there have been two chapters "since she's been back" -- the last chapter and the one before it when she returned. Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. My point is you don't seem to see that with the very basis that you start with an analysis on the emotional bonds of their relationship and conclude therefore that it has been severed, you are the one that is making an assumption, not me. Therefore what is your assumption based upon? Your own interpretation of the narrative thus far and one chapter of material. You are the one talking about Zenkichi growing out of his devotion to Medaka. You then add that to "their relationship is over" to move onto your other conclusions. I'm absolutely shocked and floored that you can't understand you're not being objective.
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2013-03-19, 16:49 | Link #12906 | |
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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I'm not sure what I intended to accomplish considering my whole purpose was to arrive to tell Sol Falling he was not being objective. Even if I'm right, it's not realistic of me to except he'll accept it.
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2013-03-19, 16:49 | Link #12907 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Meanwhile, what myself and zigantz, the individuals whose conversation you claim to be commenting on, were talking about was Zenkichi's maturation from his devotion to Medaka and the possible repercussions of it. Do you think it's impossible to talk about that objectively? Do you not even understand that Zenkichi getting over his complete devotion to Medaka has objectively happened? As it is an event which has been illustrated in the source material, we can fully talk about the objective implications of it. Did you want to make the claim that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship as of the last chapter cannot objectively be over? Then that needs to be based on objective evidence. Saying that it's impossible to make conclusions about Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship presently is basically saying that it's impossible to make any form of objective conjecture at all, and that the only thing people are allowed to make is objective observations. You're basically saying that logic doesn't exist. I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish either. You seem to have completely missed the entire purpose of our former discussion. |
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2013-03-19, 17:05 | Link #12908 |
Nyaaan~~
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 40
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^ Yeah, my entire point was to tell you that "objective conjecture" doesn't exist. By definition, based on the evidence available to us all, you cannot claim to be objective and come to the conclusion that they are no longer together as inadequate information to come to that conclusion yet.
As for Zenkichi, I'm very happy to see him grow out of being so one dimensional! I think we would agree on that. As for the discussion though, what I did see (and I did read it) were people challenging you and you constantly fighting under the banner of being: "Objective" despite others protests to the contrary. I am not saying your statements are not well-reasoned. I am also not saying your arguments are not or cannot be grounded and or inferred based on much of the source material, but by definition it is conjecture and is therefore not objective. EDIT: Okay, y'know what, I personally have fallen into the trap where my own tone has become somewhat condescending and that's not right. I've made some edits to correct that. The main point of this, Sol, is when you make claims that you are being "Objective!" with your analysis and that you have reached "Objective" conclusions .. by definition your statement means that you have derived an absolute truth. You may very well be correct, but to be honest, you might also not be. Premature and needless claims of objectivity disallows any other attempts to disagree with you because then they are simply "not being objective" .. when it could be, maybe, possible that you were not being objective in the first place. tl;dr -- "Objective" indicates an absolute truth free of bias, external influence and ultimately not open to other interpretations. Claiming it is claiming the summit of the mountain and being unyielding.
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Last edited by willx; 2013-03-19 at 17:32. Reason: For self-reflection |
2013-03-19, 17:27 | Link #12909 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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My statement that Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship in its present form is over was a logical conclusion, not a conjecture. You can objectively ascertain that the basis of Medaka's attachment to Zenkichi was emotional dependency. You can objectively ascertain that Zenkichi grew out of the devotion which enabled it. You can objectively correlate this to Medaka's reaction of saying "goodbye". Thereby you can reach the logical conclusion that their relationship as it had existed for 14 years was over. All of that is stuff which is assertable, and arguable, under objective grounds. Quote:
Do you disagree that analyzing established source material objectively is possible? EDIT: Quote:
Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-19 at 17:46. |
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2013-03-19, 17:49 | Link #12910 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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2013-03-19, 18:04 | Link #12912 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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This is the issues scientists face, we're talking about a story. There's not such thing as an concrete objective interpretation of a story. YOU WILL NEVER COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND A STORY. The only person that would understand all the ins and outs of a story and what every single part of it means is the author. Since you can never completely understand another human you will never be able to completely understand the work of person that can be interpreted in a thousand different ways. There is simply probable scenario's, these things aren't absolute, they're not even remotely near absolute. The author could kill off all character next chapter and start with a new set of characters. The author could do thousands of different things within a story because a story is only limited by a persons imagination. A person's imagination is something you don't completely understand and probably never will. So you can't dismiss another person's interpretation of a possible outcome of a story like that, because that in itself is not logical. The story itself doesn't have to be logical either and in many case it already isn't. There are no set rules within a story, ultimarely it's all down to the author's imagination, everything else is determined by that. This is a concept you can't seem to grasp hence the recurring arguments. Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-19 at 18:14. |
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2013-03-19, 18:14 | Link #12913 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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I'll ask you a question: under what standard do people judge what is considered "good writing"? That is the standard which I am applying to this story, and pretty much any other which I respect. Frankly, the Medaka Box fanbase is the only one which has ever given me shit for attempting to do so, I can only think that says something about the audience.
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2013-03-19, 18:26 | Link #12914 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Stories as a whole are grey area's as ultimately a good or bad story to you comes down to whether you liked or appreciated the story or not. That like in itself comes from your own personal bias. So in essence common consensus is common bias. Also you can get flak from most stories fanbases, it's most apparant when you compare two stories together and then make a conclusion choosing on or another. |
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2013-03-19, 18:34 | Link #12915 | |
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Age: 35
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2013-03-19, 18:37 | Link #12916 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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My 5 cents. I believe that it is impossible to make a prediction using only the text of the manga. As from inside of the system.
Example: Based on the previous arc - we can predict the death of the main characters or absence of Medaka. It is absolutely clear predict from words of characters, events and the like. but! Wrong (from an "objective" point of view) to assume that Nishino can write any plot development. In the experience of previous one arc is objectively clear that Nishino will not do things that will shock readers ("typical" readers) Such as - the death of the main characters, break of a main pair, and the like. I apologize for my english - I'm always trying to write clear, but I am afraid that it does not work for me. |
2013-03-19, 18:51 | Link #12917 | |
Not A Loli-con....
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the looking glass
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2013-03-19, 19:04 | Link #12918 |
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Join Date: May 2012
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Tl;dr: Medaka and Zen are going to end up toguether, regardless of how many paragraphs written on internet forums in favor of them splitting up being the objectively best path in the story.
It's most likely going to happen, one way or the other. And I don't even like them, I'm hardcore shipping Zenami right now, but Zenkichi and Medaka are still, by far, the most likely pairing to happen. ~~~ Spoiler for Tenchi:
Spoiler:
Are there any more in-depth spoilers I could read, guys? Thanks.
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Tags |
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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