Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[user112168]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, I remember too that the cabal in Graces head said the lead the Vajra to Frontier... however I don't remember them saying that they made them attack Frontier, that the Vajra did all on their own. Calling the Vajra "good guys" is overstating things.

I note in episode 9, how the nest full of Vajra eggs in the derelict ship Grace hand Brera destroy before SMS can capture it was called "Alpha-1104 nest" obviously not a name Vajra would use themselves. Sounds like Grace had planted nests of Vajra around the place, and there was incriminating evidence inside she couldn't afford Frontier people to see.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by reelyanoob

I note in episode 9, how the nest full of Vajra eggs in the derelict ship Grace hand Brera destroy before SMS can capture it was called "Alpha-1104 nest" obviously not a name Vajra would use themselves. Sounds like Grace had planted nests of Vajra around the place, and there was incriminating evidence inside she couldn't afford Frontier people to see.

That wasn't the motivation Grace had for destroying that particular nest. In the conference earlier in that episode (after Michael almost shot Alto during their sortie ), Leon clearly states that there might be a Vajra nest in the vicinity and that they need further information on the Vajra. Grace was listening in on that conversation and therefore had a clear motivation to destroy it.

As for having a name for that particular nest, it is not unreasonable to conclude that the cabal had catalogized the Vajra nests in the sector. And even if the cabal had planted the nest there in the past, that still doesn't account for the Vajra attacking Frontier without cause.

[Irisiel]

I wonder really if Ranka was right, because according to her, the Vajra only wanted to save her from the chaotic humans, yet this theory is tested in the very first episode.

Instead of quickly killing Gilliam and grabbing Ranka, the Vajra took time to kill him in possibly one of the most painful, and drawn out, deaths possible. Had it simply swatted Gilliam aside, it could have grabbed Ranka and made its getaway before anyone could stop it.

It suggests that at the very least, there's something vicious going on with the Vajra hive-mind.

Or Ranka inherited Vajra's inability to plan ahead and only think of their own satisfaction of the moment (the Vajra gets the pleasure of torturing the pilot who attacked it to death, nevermind its duty to bring Ranka back to the hive).

Seriously, most of the stuff that's happened in the early episodes were of the Vajra hive's own choosing, and the deaths and collateral damage those actions resulted in is all on their hands/claws/whatever.

No one can convince me that Grace specifically manipulated that Vajra into torturing Gilliam to death. She didn't micromanage that much. Which means that at least one Vajra in the hive-mind choose to torture.

Also, to attack someone to rescue someone else who isn't even held captive by that someone? Er, the only time I've heard of this is stalkers being delusional and dangerous.

I dunno, but Ranka going "they only wanted to save me from something I didn't need saving for, so they're okay!" is particularly grating when you consider the many lives lost, some in an unnecessarily painful way.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by raile

Because he found out that it was all a big-ass conspiracy by Grace and Galaxy?

Because the Vajra defected to Sheryl. And Sheryl had told him to rescue Ranka.

And so as before he changed his mind because of Hopes and Dreams.

[moncikoma]

[Mod Edit: moved from the Q&A thread]

how about cathy...

i am sure she already done it so many times with her BOS, and OZMA..

[Kikuchi]

Is that a bad thing ?

[moncikoma]

Originally Posted by Kikuchi

Is that a bad thing ?

It is bad ... If Ozma finds out.. XD

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by moncikoma

It is bad ... If Ozma finds out.. XD

Nay. They were not in a romantic relationship until Cathy was assigned as XO to MQ. And I'm back again :P

[CrowKenobi]

Moved yesterday and today's post to the Ranka character thread since the discussion didn't really cover any of Ranka's romance issues...

[Thess]

I don't know where to ask this, and this thread seemed the most fitting... so I remember there was an old interview that claimed that once Alto made up his mind (lol), he'll move on a big way. Was this one of the false interviews or was this legit? Or I'm misremembering (it's been years)?

We know that Alto didn't make an explicit choice due to last minute executive meddling/rewrite/decision, but if this was a real previous claim, it puts the last episodes (minus 25) into perspective.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't know where to ask this, and this thread seemed the most fitting... so I remember there was an old interview that claimed that once Alto made up his mind (lol), he'll move on a big way. Was this one of the false interviews or was this legit? Or I'm misremembering (it's been years)?

We know that Alto didn't make an explicit choice due to last minute executive meddling/rewrite/decision, but if this was a real previous claim, it puts the last episodes (minus 25) into perspective.

I very vaguely remember having read that, but I fear I cannot put it into context. I can pretty much tell you, however, that there should be logical way that Alto chose Ranka in the end. ^^

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I very vaguely remember having read that, but I fear I cannot put it into context. I can pretty much tell you, however, that there should be logical way that Alto chose Ranka in the end. ^^

Indeed.

In the end the choice would be like this: Which one is more profitable with fans? Sheryl Nome as a single superstar or as Mrs. Sheryl Saotome?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

Indeed.

In the end the choice would be like this: Which one is more profitable with fans? Sheryl Nome as a single superstar or as Mrs. Sheryl Saotome?

Well, I was talking more about character motivations and how the story happened, but marketing reasons also count.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't know where to ask this, and this thread seemed the most fitting... so I remember there was an old interview that claimed that once Alto made up his mind (lol), he'll move on a big way. Was this one of the false interviews or was this legit? Or I'm misremembering (it's been years)?

I don't know if it was from one of the false interviews or not, I could not remember. But this happened before NORTHERN CROSS and before Ranka left the fleet.

When the subsequent episodes happened... Considering the context of Alto "moving on a big way", you can pretty much imagine my jubilance in the following weeks...

Originally Posted by Thess

In the end the choice would be like this: Which one is more profitable with fans? Sheryl Nome as a single superstar or as Mrs. Sheryl Saotome?

If fan preference in Japan is of any indication, I cannot think of a reason why we can't have both.

- Tak

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by Tak

I don't know if it was from one of the false interviews or not, I could not remember. But this happened before NORTHERN CROSS and before Ranka left the fleet.

- Tak

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't know where to ask this, and this thread seemed the most fitting... so I remember there was an old interview that claimed that once Alto made up his mind (lol), he'll move on a big way. Was this one of the false interviews or was this legit? Or I'm misremembering (it's been years)?

We know that Alto didn't make an explicit choice due to last minute executive meddling/rewrite/decision, but if this was a real previous claim, it puts the last episodes (minus 25) into perspective.

Well, it's more like Q&A page from Animedia September, and it's legit since I know I have seen the scan and Darial translated it. This is it. Before the untimely tl;dr happen, just to remind you all to be civil--don't just accuse Kawamori in hot headed manner, lest we see more warzones. With that said, don't shoot the informer and be civil~~

cheesu, your info dump works the best as search engines

P.S: I seriously have an abnormal brain for remembering this yet has very hard time to properly remember TnC game stories even though I played that twice. Bah.

[magnuskn]

That's some seriously good memory. ^^

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, I was talking more about character motivations and how the story happened, but marketing reasons also count.

Oh absolutely. I like Alto/Sheryl more than Alto/Ranka, even if I don't hate the latter (TV series wise, I'll reserve my judgment in the movies when I watch the last one) and the tv series leaned absolutely on the former direction. But... I can see Sheryl 'losing' to preserve her Marketing appeal (which is greater than Ranka's) and that would explain Ranka's changes in the movie.

I am taking into account previous highly popular and marketed idols, none of them was tied down in a romantic relationship: Minmay 'lost', Basara was never competing, Mylene never 'chose' (another open triangle that to date we have no resolution). Myung is not Sharon Apple, the Nome sisters were never highly Marketed.

I think originally they tried to make Ranka more commercial and failed (didn't Ranka used to get more spreads than Sheryl in the beginning?). Sheryl's popularity (and May'n) was unpredictable.

I don't doubt for a second that if it comes down to Ranka vs Sheryl for Alto, Sheryl wins. Nonetheless, when it comes down to Sheryl vs Alto/Sheryl for the production, they might lean on the former (weren't her solo scenes more popular in TFS than her shippy ones?). Ranka's a no-issue, to be honest.

Natsuki Hyuga: Thank you for the link! So these happened before episode 17, even? (Judging by the date).

Originally Posted by Tak

When the subsequent episodes happened... Considering the context of Alto "moving on a big way", you can pretty much imagine my jubilance in the following weeks...

No kidding. Episode 17 onwards is highly leaning on a side. I imagine Alto moving on a "big way" could mean:

A) Breaking his oath to protect Ranka (not ever chase after her unless Sheryl asked him to save her, obviously), breaking his oath to never set a foot home, not joining Ozma and co (and leaving Quarter to move in with Sheryl), having sex and living a lovers' life, tried on a woman's earring all for Sheryl.

B) Asking Ranka to sing for Frontier... and resolving to kill Ranka for her own sake.

So romantic of you, Alto.

I think the only ups Ranka had during this time was that Alto admitted joining SMS for her sake (and this was in the past, therefore it's not accounted for the "moving on a big way" in future episodes). We can discern the original intent, even if they could change it for the movies.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Thess

I think the only ups Ranka had during this time was that Alto admitted joining SMS for her sake (and this was in the past, therefore it's not accounted for the "moving on a big way" in future episodes). We can discern the original intent, even if they could change it for the movies.

Although Alto claimed that he will protect Ranka, he never stated Ranka was the reason for him to join a civilian military agency.

After all, kid wanted to fly ever since the beginning even before he met Ranka! Ozma took a liking of him because he actually attempted to protect Ranka, and as teenage impulse would have it, Alto almost abruptly responded to Ozma stating he would protect Ranka if he joined the SMS. Nonetheless, thats hardly the reason for him to join. Protecting Ranka, apparently, was a side bonus, but it sounded like music to Ozma's ears.

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

Although Alto claimed that he will protect Ranka, but he never stated Ranka was the reason for him to join a civilian military agency.

I agree with this, but I also think he wanted to do it because it made him feel GAR/MANLY (to reinforce his seated gender issues, IMO). I do believe Alto felt some romantic attraction to Ranka, but it was just infatuation (in the end, Sheryl did more for Ranka than Alto did is my sheryl/ranka otp preference sneaking in? Perhaps...). His feelings for Sheryl were just stronger, IMO. He would take an oath that boasted his self-esteem and was convenient for Ranka (or for the sake of his own ego). At contrast, he would break those oaths and truly sacrifice for Sheryl. That's where the real love is.

When Ranka was down, Alto was not able to reach for her, he couldn't put aside everything for her. I don't think he's the right man for Ranka Lee. When Sheryl was, he could (to the point he told her to stop singing, even if was for the greater good, he prioritized her life over Frontier). Those weren't easy choices at all.

That some people mistaking this for pity (the sex and comfort in previous discussions I've spotted?) are deluding themselves. Would you sacrifice most of what you love (including rescuing the other girl that you might love) for the sake of the woman you pity? I don't think so. The official note of episode 22 (that one with Alto embracing a half naked Sheryl) states clearly the situation that has been fulfilled/completed is 口説いて aka to seduce/woo/court/romance not "to take pity/be compassionate". The spread is a neutral narrator delivering an official statement. The sex was not an act of pity, but of seduction. This doesn't mean he'll marry Sheryl or cancel what he might feel for Ranka, but it wasn't just comfort for a sick person.

[magnuskn]

It's always amazing when someone new joins the discussion and just states stuff at which we arrived after months of back and forth between the Sheryl and Ranka fans.

A very good analysis, Thess.