Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Evil Rick]

Originally Posted by Kagerou

I think this is simply a case of plot overshadowing the "realism" of MSLN.

Realistically, between Shamal, Zafira, and Vice, there should have been no problem against the Gadget Drones that went there. However, them beating back the offense would not have worked with the plot, and so, they had to fail in one way or another.

I think that it was more realism, not just plot thing, they are strong yes, but no matter how strong could someone be, facing that numbers of enemies marks the diference in all scenses

If I were to guess, they probably underestimated the Combat Cyborgs, as well as Lutecia and Garyuu. They were beaten because the enemy blindsided them. It wasn't Hayate's fault.

No, I think they don't, since they first mentionated Jail (can't remember exactly wich episode) they always spoke of him as a great treath that shouldn't be underestimated

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Kagerou

I think this is simply a case of plot overshadowing the "realism" of MSLN.

Realistically, between Shamal, Zafira, and Vice, there should have been no problem against the Gadget Drones that went there. However, them beating back the offense would not have worked with the plot, and so, they had to fail in one way or another.

If I were to guess, they probably underestimated the Combat Cyborgs, as well as Lutecia and Garyuu. They were beaten because the enemy blindsided them. It wasn't Hayate's fault.

Well, Beam Baton Number literally blindsided Zafira; she was all stealthed and then *WHAM* cuts him down just as he's charging through the beamspam and evading. That shocks Shamal momentarily, and that little slip is enough to lose concentration on her barriers and to get overpowered.

As for being blindsided by the enemy - that's what the enemy does. Also, seriously, which is the higher value target? RF6 or GFHQ? Even watching the series, my bet was on GFHQ; I had a feeling they might go after Vivio, but the main target would be GFHQ. And furthermore, it's only after Vivio was kidnapped that the investigation results got back and revealed that she's a clone of the Sankt Kaiser. Without that knowledge, it didn't make sense to class RF6 as a high value target.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Correct, judging from previous actions, there's no reason to think that Shamal and Zafira wouldn't be enough to defend the base. And they almost held out long enough too. Yet, ark dismisses their defense of the base like he does RF6's deployment at HQ. It's like I kept saying, no matter what they showed on screen, it wouldn't have satisfied him unless they clearly drove off the attackers. He says otherwise, but look at how he considers the presence of two experienced veterans to be "inadequate".

I've given up trying to figure out what ark wants out of Nanoha, actually. Like I said, we're in this for different reasons. Ark's here because he likes them fightin's and arguing; we're here because we want to do world building and to tell a story.

I do find it rather amusing, however, that when I called him out on being a hypocrite with regards to Nanoha, his only counter was that being half-assed was more hypocritical. But then when one is inherently half-assed since the beginning...

"Professor, yes Professor! I'll sit in this corner and SOD half-assedly."

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm having trouble believing that people are still blaming the destruction of RF6 as a failure on Hayate's part. The TSAB had no way of knowing RF6 was going to be a target of attack, as all the prophecy showed was that there 'might' be an attack on the Ground Forces HQ. Heck, even the military buffs here didn't expect the attack on RF6.

Yeah, because with enemies audacious and capable enough to attack the CINC HQ, an attack on the HQ of the most annoying battalion (squad?) is utterly unthinkable...

Did she keep it down? Hardly. She merely 'pinned it down' by sitting on top of it and immediately -note the immediately- drilled into it.

But if the drone was very heavy, it would have immediately arisen. And there is the CoG concern that ATC explained rather well.

I'm sorry, but the fact that someone who can accidentally throw a human a few dozen meters in the air having without apparent effort trouble drilling through armor would make the assumption of armor being tough common sense, methinks.

Did you even scale the image to confirm it was "a few dozen meters"? You know yourself. After that, it is up to you to provide the calculations if you want your point proven. Remember that you didn't want to just prove that it is stronger than what a human fist can break: that's easy and given - you want to prove at least it is tougher than what a HMG can penetrate.

Problem is, we know Subaru is very powerful, and we know she didn't snap the drone in two like a twig. While no precise calculations can be made, the fact that she drills into the drone slowly actually works against you here, as this does prove that the armor is not merely light and easy to break.

Wow, a claim. Not a lot of quantification.

Your assumption is that since you measured the speed, it must be accurate. Ergo, middy concrete has the strength of polystyrene.

Yes, that's called using the evidence you are given.

The problem is, however, that this does not explain why Mid build their homes, and even their own bases out of this materials.

In other words, you can't make sense out of it, so you allow your presumptions to override observation?

Going as far as to make it their primary support material.

You don't know that. We see them cracking the superficial material. Who's to say the strength isn't in say a hard rod in the middle?

Then of course you need to explain why these buildings don't just collapse under their own weight, not to mention the weight the people inhabiting and their equipment must place on them.

If it only cracks under impact, it would probably survive humans inhabiting as long as they don't throw themselves at walls.

But we're not done yet, what about the weather? How do these buildings stand up to heavy wind?

Using the internal frame structure.

Or a hailstorm? If the measured speed is accurate, even a hailstorm would do more damage then the people thrown against it.

1) I don't think we've seen a hailstorm yet. It remains possible they do extensively repair buildings after every hailstorm.
2) Alternatively, Midchildran architecture can be exoskeletonal, with the "hull" (exterior) of the building being the "strength wall" and most of the rest being non-structural.

And of course, despite claiming it to be a different kind of material, you have no name to place on it. What is this wonder material called, that shows so many contradictions in your own observations?

Why is naming this unknown material so important. How about Midchildran National Building Standard-52?

That's what you're doing. Creating more problems, and then just ignoring them and assume 'well, my speed calculations are absolute, so the rest must be wrong.'

Actually, the problems are mandated by the observation. If someone is creating more problems, it is the author or the animator. Go write to them. And no, the problems don't disappear by burying your head in the sand.

I throw out one observation. You throw out several observations, among which also realism and common sense (something which you always chid me for), and rely on the 'durrr, Mid is dumb' to explain.

I am keeping every observation. True, the ruler is hard to fit when all multiple elements of the observations have to be used, but it is not impossible. Trying to make it easy by keeping only one element is lazy thinking. The denial of a solution that fits all the points and insisting on your one point, especially when that one point happens to favor your own prejudices...

Besides, having soft/crunchy exteriors may not be all a bad idea in Midchildra, so it might not be "Mid is dumb" at all. Remember that many Middies are mages, and so many would have super strength or speed. Presumably, sometimes, people might use that strength where they shouldn't - say a bar brawl,, family dispute, little kid playing with his magic, people putting on a spurt of super-speed so they aren't late for work ... the list goes on.

In these cases, it is hardly unthinkable they might lose control, like Subaru and Teana as they rushed towards the end goal in Ep1, and run themselves into a wall. Or people in a brawl blasting each other (say a criminal blasting a cop) into walls. In such a case, even a few millimeters of give in the wall will significantly prolong the deceleration phase, thus attenuating the peak deceleration and making the whole experience measurably more survivable.

Given this reality, it may be that Midchildran construction standards actually require, to the extent it won't fatally compromise the structural strength of a building, incorporation of crumple zones that give way with relative ease on impacts. This may be important to them that they'll accept a higher maintenance requirement on walls or even load limits on floors to ensure this safety.

Perhaps another way of calculating would satisfy you. After all, there's no way you will ever believe something unless you can calculate it. Is it possible to calculate their speed not by observing the frames, but observing the damage caused? Let's take the Erio-into-a-pillar scene of episode 11. Assume the concrete to be normal. How much speed would a solid object of about Erio's size need to create such a crater in the concrete?

Yes, but why assume the crater is drawn any more accurately than the speed? If they slow things down just to "Look Cool", they can scribble a crater where none should be just to look cool too. And if I need a reason to cancel that observation, I will just point out about a normal human's survivability against the impact you want. If you mutter magic or Barrier Jackets (mostly the same thing), I'll point out with such fluffy excuses I can do the same for my soft buildings. Why you can get away with fluff explanations while demanding detailed ones from me is unknown.

You see the can of worms that you open up once you decide which elements of an observation you want to throw out.

So what you're saying is that Nanoha can stop huge statues from falling without expending any energy?

Thermodynamically. Yes.

If Regius was against it, then it must have reached his desk at some time for him to reject it.

He was against anti-AMF funding, which as I've explained to you is reasonable considering the data he received. Where this part where he banned any AMF training came from is hard to see.

However, Vita didn't train the entire TSAB. Only the 108th and Saint Church forces. Since Genya mentions a little redhead in combination with 'our' and we combine that with her going to train the 108th in episode 10, then it's obvious Genya was referring to the 108th as 'our'

Wow, how selfish and biased Vita is. You mean she didn't train any other units? Aah, nepotism in the TSAB!

Barely holding on against an army far outnumbering them. I'd like to call a small force pinning down a larger force and preventing them from advancing very effective.

I'll be more impressed if said larger force actually looked like it was aggressively trying to advance. I see them just standing back and skirmishing.

Every AAA-rank and higher can do so. Hayate was only S-rank when she could do a repeated bombardement with a rather sizable blast radius. Vita's Gigant Hammer can reach sizes that can crush houses, imagine what would happen should she do a sweeping strike with that.

A lot of strikes that might eventually (eventually being the key word) destroy a significant part of a city.

Concidering the Black Market where these guys get their weapons could just as easily go to earth and buy 'proper' weapons, the 'middie guns must be slow' argument, even if it was true, is useless. Black Market doesn't care where they get their weapons, only that they sell. If they can get weapons from earth that are better then the stuff they have, they will do so. Ergo, it is useless to assume that the criminals will have weapons that are bellow our weapons capabilities.

Well, the guy that shot at Erio with a gun almost certainly did not get his from Earth

And of course they won't be able to get rid of all weapons. That's like assuming we can get rid of all terrorists. There will always be criminals, and as long as there are criminals, there will always be people with weapons the law won't allow.

As I said to Jimmy, I can buy a thriving black market of mass weapons. But when it comes to a whole planet called Orusia...

Or they could carpet bomb the country. Or massacre the population. The point I'm trying to make is that when you have set a series of standards for your country, you try to uphold them as best as you can. Every country does this, it is unreasonable to expect the TSAB to do otherwise. Especially when there are ways around it.

Ways that are said not to work by the principal of their training school? Tough sell here.

Hmm, so it was the old NTSC versus PAL (which would technically make it 25 FPS). Well, that solves one crisis, but that still changes nothing.

No, actually it is NTSC vs film. PAL is 25 FPS, film is 24.

No, what happened here is that the animator failed to appease to your taste as a viewer. Animation is only perfectly accurate if such is the goal of the animation. Nanoha is an anime made for entertainment. Realism of animated speed is a non-issue here.

Actually, imagine this scene:

Operator: "Target A is approaching at 2000km/h!"

Shift to Target A. Target A is crawling across the sky. It is taking one minute to get through half the non-panning screen. Scaling it suggests it is moving at maybe 10km/h, max. On the side, other planes and birds overtake target A at more or less realistic speeds.

Operator: "Target A is still approaching at 2000km/h!"

Shift back to Target A, which is crawling through the other half of the scene... taking it well? Good animator?

[LoweGear]

I'mma requote my question just in case it was missed:

Originally Posted by question

Point me to a good example of an animation work that shows realistic projectile speeds 100% in all scenes all the time while maintaining dramatic tension and entertainment value?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Well, Beam Baton Number literally blindsided Zafira; she was all stealthed and then *WHAM* cuts him down just as he's charging through the beamspam and evading. That shocks Shamal momentarily, and that little slip is enough to lose concentration on her barriers and to get overpowered.

As for being blindsided by the enemy - that's what the enemy does. Also, seriously, which is the higher value target? RF6 or GFHQ? Even watching the series, my bet was on GFHQ; I had a feeling they might go after Vivio, but the main target would be GFHQ. And furthermore, it's only after Vivio was kidnapped that the investigation results got back and revealed that she's a clone of the Sankt Kaiser. Without that knowledge, it didn't make sense to class RF6 as a high value target.

What's the Higher Value Target?

Uh... Vivio. The entire GFHQ was a feint.


Actually, it kind of surprises me that in all the sequence of events, nobody ever connected the dots.

You've got a guy who's going after every relic he can find. Suddenly a little girl turns up chained to a relic... You rush the girl to a chopper Evac and give the Relic to another team... Then the Enemy forces go to town on you with some higher value assets for the first time in who knows how long. The enemy goes after the Relic, but also tries to blow your chopper doing nothing more than Medevac (and not even going anywhere near the actual fighting) out of the sky for no appearant reason... Then later after the fight, you learn that the little girl is a CLONE of some ancient, highly important magic person...

You know... just those little details

Little girl with relic, she's a clone of the Sainkt Kaiser... the enemy divided a significant portion of its high value assets up in an attempt to capture the relic AND blast her... Uh... V.I.P. anyone? I may not know the details, but I know that she's of some kind of importance to the opposition if only by circumstance. The connections would be enough to warrant suspicion, and if I was expecting an attack at the important function, I would have at least expected more than Token defense requirements on the homefront in case my suspicions were validated.

If I were doing any kind of planning, I would have arranged secretly for a convenient trip 'out of town' for the night, perhaps under the pretext of a sleepover or something equally fun for a little kid. Prefferably a location offworld... perhaps to visit 'Uncle Scrya'.

"You'll like Yuuno, he's a good friend of mine, and he has lots of neat books to look at."

After all, the best defensive location is not heavily fortified... it's the location the Enemy doesn't know you're even at. And what better place to deal with it than to send Vivio offworld to visit Yuuno at the Infinity Library, deep in the middle of 'nowhere' dimensional space? (Considering the main HQ sits litterally, in what amounts to little more than the middle of nowhere in dimensional space... Good luck having the numbers blitz THAT place.)

Then when Jail snickers about his oh so perfect decoy operation, and shows off his cyborgs, I end up getting the last laugh when, despite the damage, he comes up short his true objective. Even if I don't know it's his true objective at the time... I can always laugh later.

[Evil Rick]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

I'mma requote my question just in case it was missed:

There was an anime bassed of 4 girls who were training to be jet pilots, can't remember the title but I think it matchs with your request

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, imagine this scene:

Operator: "Target A is approaching at 2000km/h!"

Shift to Target A. Target A is crawling across the sky. It is taking one minute to get through half the non-panning screen. Scaling it suggests it is moving at maybe 10km/h, max. On the side, other planes and birds overtake target A at more or less realistic speeds.

Operator: "Target A is still approaching at 2000km/h!"

Shift back to Target A, which is crawling through the other half of the scene... taking it well? Good animator?

Aren't you kind of arguing against yourself there? By pointing out that animation can easily contain huge inconsistencies that require completely absurd apologies resulting in an alien, unappealing, and- perhaps worst from your point of view- necessarily incomplete internal logic for the setting?

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

In the case of what did happen, the building was not sealed, so getting extra firepower was an option. That being the case, should they charge at the enemy (that weren't in the building yet as far as they could see) with limited power or retrieve their heavy guns first?

Point. But if they are that concerned with internal invaders slaughtering with every second, like you do, this is a judgment call.

That would be assuming they'd have the opportunity to do so. What if they don't?

If the enemy's isolating barriers are good enough to stop a fireteam of S and near-S, then a logical extension is that they brought a lot of combat power on their side. Fighting those guys without devices = suicide.

While we discuss access, you might remember that the blast doors slide down in emergencies? So, in your scenario, unless the deviceless Aces are in the same compartment as the assassins, which is unlikely because they don't seem to be in the same compartment as the VIPs in Regius' room, they won't be able to stop them. They would have to grind past the blast doors, made more difficult w/o devices. Meanwhile, the assassins, with lots of firepower, have relatively little trouble blasting through the doors on their own schedule and nobody outside can get in. Result: Aces get slaughtered with the rest.

And like I said, they'd have a better chance than the Forwards without their devices.

And the whole team would have a better chance overall if everyone started with devices, even if they had to work their way in. When even in your specific scenario, the advantage is not apparent, counting in other scenarios the better overall option should be obvious.

Can you clarify? I have no idea what you're trying to say here. So I have no idea how to respond.

Com got it right.

If by "No" you mean, "The rules won't get changed" that is correct.

That's obvious. I meant "Did they try?"

I'd think that Hayate and co. had more important things to do than push for changes to GFHQ's operational protocols. They've been working on the Relics case since formation. By the time they got involved in the GFHQ conference, there's simply no time to ask for changes to GFHQ's rules, let alone get them implemented. To ask for special treatment like the two-man rule isn't going to cut it with Regius either.

If they were working on the Relics case more seriously than GF HQ's conference, then Hayate has lost sight of her priorities. Relics investigation, while important, is ultimately a cover job for their real job - to stop the prophecy.

And it is never too late to try.

I don't think Hayate has any useful attack spells at A-rank. Here's hoping that she has at least a gattling blaster to quickly mow down drones.

Try Bloody Dagger. It should still be with her.

There's one other thing to consider. Whether at the base or GFHQ, Hayate would almost certainly be fighting at A-rank. If Carim released her limiter, there's no way she or Chrono would be able to get their release permissions renewed in time for the final battle.

1) From the flow of the show they didn't know when the next battle is.
2) If they did a good job with this battle, the "final" battle would be averted or at least substantially delayed.
3) The situation wasn't even that tight in Ep11 and Hayate popped a release.

So It is hard to imagine she'd decide different in the more tense Ep16-17.

Do note that we never saw Fate at the time she got the limiter installed. Nor did we see Fate adjusting the energy flow to Arf to accommodate the limiter.

Have you considered maybe we didn't see it because it didn't happen?

Therefore, even if Arf did feel anything, it was months ago by the time we saw her again in ep20+.

Yes. Do you stop feeling starvation after awhile?

Given that it's probably been years since she needed Arf to do any fighting, that doesn't come as a surprise.

True, but it is still a mistake.

"Another guy in front" would be one more person on their power allocations. They're already maxed out with the limiter-installed commanders and newbie Forwards. They already have everyone they can get.

I'm sure I mentioned that Arf was not supposed to be officially part of the unit. Have her close by as a civvie, or as part of a friendly battalion. When they need extras, they "borrow" them like how Ginga came over.

Would a checker sophisticated enough to tell the difference be practical enough to include with the limiter? Considering the way they treat these things, I maintain it's more likely that limiters impose a blanket clamp on all energy output. KISS principle.

It'll be simpler maybe, but it'll also be a waste of many potential uses. Basically, it means preferring that part of the mage's talents go regularly wasted when it could be usefully employed elsewhere.

It also means the TSAB got absolutely no trust in its mages. And I thought I was the bleak one on the TSAB...

If it was such a hair-trigger, they'd use it in every battle. Then it'd really be a joke. And if you looked at it, everyone's limiters got released once (tops) before the final battle. Not that much of a joke, I'd say.

So it wasn't THAT much of a hair trigger. Nevertheless, nobody but Hayate even really thinks before it gets popped off. Even in Ep11, when the situation was worrying but not quite critical, Fate wasn't thinking very hard.

If they abandon the base to flee to the holofield, they give Jail's forces all the time they need to find the PDS. Unless it was buried under the field.

And if they waste time finding the PDS, they aren't attacking anything.

Even if it were, I realised that there's another matter you need to address. The holofield is seperated from the other base buildings by a lot of open ground. To reach it, they'd have to get everyone out of buildings that already provide decent cover, dash across unprotected terrain, slow down at stairs before running into the field, in the middle of a battle! Most of the personnel will be easily picked off at the stairs bottleneck. Still think the field will buy you extra time? Or will it just get everyone shot faster?

Make the decision to evac earlier.

Then, what happens to the people inside the field in the event of an unplanned shutdown, like the PDS being destroyed for example. Will the people above ground level fall to their deaths? What about those below ground level?

So stay at ground level, darnit.

Of course, if the PDS falls, they would be left somewhat naked. But as I've mentioned, the building isn't that large and that tough either, so dispersal under cover is at least arguably a better policy.

Unless, of course, the PDS are as open and vulnerable as my opponents are postulating, so enemies will find and neutralize it in seconds. In that case, I'll agree this idea isn't going to work, but that means they failed to maximize their survivability at the design stage, so a tactical error becomes strategic.

And I've stated my arguments for why that wasn't done. So, do you have another way to save Ginga?

Probably it could be done if she hadn't wandered off.

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Aren't you kind of arguing against yourself there? By pointing out that animation can easily contain huge inconsistencies that require completely absurd apologies resulting in an alien, unappealing, and- perhaps worst from your point of view- necessarily incomplete internal logic for the setting?

Actually, such a scene can happen in real life. And in real life, the solution would be brutally simple - given that the visual observation was not mis-measured somehow, the operator is wrong, dead wrong. This will be true even if the difference is much smaller than the extreme I used, as long as the differential is larger than the reasonable margin of error in measurement.

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

After all, the best defensive location is not heavily fortified... it's the location the Enemy doesn't know you're even at. And what better place to deal with it than to send Vivio offworld to visit Yuuno at the Infinity Library, deep in the middle of 'nowhere' dimensional space? (Considering the main HQ sits litterally, in what amounts to little more than the middle of nowhere in dimensional space... Good luck having the numbers blitz THAT place.)

Then when Jail snickers about his oh so perfect decoy operation, and shows off his cyborgs, I end up getting the last laugh when, despite the damage, he comes up short his true objective. Even if I don't know it's his true objective at the time... I can always laugh later.

I'll have to agree here - it was possible to have connected the dots in the manner you propose before the fall. On the other hand, I think I have to be fair on this point. We didn't predict it either, and failure to connect disparate points into attack warnings is hardly a problem limited to the TSAB. While IMO they can be faulted for not taking more general security precautions I think I for one can forgive them for not quite coming up with this, especially when you add the bias of the Prophecy.

On the other hand, if the security provided was one based on significant suspicion of your theory...

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

But if they are that concerned with internal invaders slaughtering with every second, like you do, this is a judgment call.

It's a contingency. One that did not come to pass. In what did happen, they had the need and opportunity to get the devices back. They'd be fools not to go for it.

When even in your specific scenario, the advantage is not apparent, counting in other scenarios the better overall option should be obvious.

So maybe it's not perfect. But it's far from being a complete failure. But then again, anything less a complete success appears to be a failure in your eyes. The fact is, no matter how good a defense they put up, no matter how long it really lasted, they won't bother showing more than a few seconds of it going down. And you'll say, "their defense sucks"

Com got it right.

In that case, I've already stated my stand on the issue. Sending the Forwards inside would be wasting their lives in an attack. Units are "expendable" if they can be expected to accomplish something before expiring. Else, they're "wasted". In war, it is neccessary to spend lives, but it is never acceptable to waste them.

That's obvious. I meant "Did they try?"

Do you expect it to be shown if they did?

And it is never too late to try.

By then, it would bring no positive results in time, and so would not be shown.

Try Bloody Dagger. It should still be with her.

I don't think that one's fast enough to deal with the hordes of drones.

So It is hard to imagine she'd decide different in the more tense Ep16-17.

So perhaps popping off her limiter here might be a good idea. Point to you.

Have you considered maybe we didn't see it because it didn't happen?

And have you considered that if it didn't happen, then Arf is getting along just fine with a reduced energy flow?

Do you stop feeling starvation after awhile?

She's getting enough to get by, so that's not analogous.

Have her close by as a civvie, or as part of a friendly battalion. When they need extras, they "borrow" them like how Ginga came over.

The second won't work, I don't think Arf is an officer like Fate is. The first might work, but both Arf and Fate prefer to have her do something other than sit around wagging her tail. At the start of StrikerS, she was looking after Chrono's kids. After the GFHQ attack, she was at the Infinite Library.
And you still have to prove she has access to the extra energy that Fate can't use due to the limiter. Otherwise, her ability to fight is marginal at best.

Basically, it means preferring that part of the mage's talents go regularly wasted when it could be usefully employed elsewhere.

There's also the fact that familiars are rather uncommon in TSAB-controlled space. Most mages prefer to keep the energy for their own use. This extra complication is worth it only if a lot of high-ranking mages use limiters and have familiars. That doesn't appear to be the case. So I still don't see why limiters would be designed to allow this.

Even in Ep11, when the situation was worrying but not quite critical, Fate wasn't thinking very hard.

So you would prefer to see her fighting for five minutes while thinking, "maybe I should release my limiter?" They don't have time for that in a 24-minute episode.

And if they waste time finding the PDS, they aren't attacking anything.

Wrong on two counts. First, they'll be blasting everything on their way to the PDS. Second, Jail can throw enough drones to continue hunting down people in the field while another detatchment works on the PDS.

Make the decision to evac earlier.

Before they realise they're under attack? Are they supposed to be prescient now? And they had a proper evac plan for the personnel, Jail just threw in enough forces to overwhelm it.

So stay at ground level, darnit.

"Ground level" when the field is active is not the same as the surface of the inactive field.

But as I've mentioned, the building isn't that large and that tough either, so dispersal under cover is at least arguably a better policy.

We were not shown how long it held up under bombardment, could have been 20 minutes, could have been 2 hours or more. We do know it was still holding out after it lost power, which is more than can be said about the field.

In that case, I'll agree this idea isn't going to work, but that means they failed to maximize their survivability at the design stage, so a tactical error becomes strategic.

This is ridiculous. The assault did evenually kill the base's power. But you know what? Everyone still had protection, because they were inside a real building. They lasted somewhat longer thanks to Vice. Had they been in the field at the time, even Vice would've been helpless.
Like Avatar mentioned, the training field is not a properly designed defensive position, the base is. RF6's situation is not analogous to Picard's in ST:FC. He used the holodeck to delay the Borg until he could get into a better position. RF6 is already in the best position it can be in during an attack. There's no point in leaving the base for the field's dubious additional cover.
And like I said earlier, no matter how long the attack lasted, all we'd get to see are the defenders going down. Really, I think you got so poisoned by your dislike of how RF6 handled themselves at GFHQ that you could only think of their performance at their base as a complete failure, without giving Shamal, Zafira and Vice the credit they were due for its defense. You seem to think they folded in minutes and that if they had followed your plans, they might actually last long enough for help to arrive. Do you really think they're that pathetic?

Probably it could be done if she hadn't wandered off.

What makes you assume she was just sightseeing instead of being on her job as she was supposed to be?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yeah, because with enemies audacious and capable enough to attack the CINC HQ, an attack on the HQ of the most annoying battalion (squad?) is utterly unthinkable...

The 'most annoying battalion' was only a small fly, considering Jail reeled in more Relic then he lost. The prophecy did not, in any way, indicated an attack coming from Jail specifically, nor did it indicated an attack against them. By all means, Hayate could have drawn all her knights to the front where the attack was expected. Instead, she opted to leave two of her finest to guard the home base. Just in case.

Hayate was way ahead of you.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

But if the drone was very heavy, it would have immediately arisen. And there is the CoG concern that ATC explained rather well.

'heavy' and 'immediately arisen' is a contradiction, but that aside, this assumes the drone to be like a balloon. Subaru knocked it to the ground, it needed time to recover, Subaru didn't give it that time. Simple, effective, and plus points to Subaru for quick thinking.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Did you even scale the image to confirm it was "a few dozen meters"? You know yourself. After that, it is up to you to provide the calculations if you want your point proven. Remember that you didn't want to just prove that it is stronger than what a human fist can break: that's easy and given - you want to prove at least it is tougher than what a HMG can penetrate.

The fact that I said 'a few dozen' should tell anyone that it was a figure of speech. I could have said 'very high' and I would have said the same thing.

And no, it's not 'up to me to provide calculations if I want my point proven' because you damn well know that I don't believe in calculations of animation. I'm done playing in your sandbox, Ark. I have finally found a point which proves Subaru's strength and the toughness of the drone. The problem is, it isn't calculatable. You can't count the frames here.

And this has you scared, as it's starting to unravel all the calculated points you build up.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Wow, a claim. Not a lot of quantification.

How is it you called it? Ah yes, 'an observation of the events as they played out'

Of course, unlike you who takes one scene and drags it out of proportion, I have looked at the total source material. If I hadn't looked at the manga, I wouldn't have brought up this point, as then the medium would be in your favor. However, Subaru has shown to have strength far above normal humans, and the fact that she slowly drills into the drone says something about it's armor, and it's not negative.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yes, that's called using the evidence you are given.

No, it's called twisting the evidence to suit your needs, discarding common sense and relying on pure unbased speculation.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

In other words, you can't make sense out of it, so you allow your presumptions to override observation?

Pot. Kettle. Black. Your 'middie concrete is weak' is exactly the same thing. You can't make sense of a human being surviving being thrown into concrete, so you override the observation and call the concrete weak.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

You don't know that. We see them cracking the superficial material. Who's to say the strength isn't in say a hard rod in the middle?

Hard rod in the middle would mean the pillars to be a geometric square, as the rod would be the central support with the superficial material only there for protection from the elements. Considering the pillars weren't square, but rather build wider to spread the weight support, this contradicts your theory.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

If it only cracks under impact, it would probably survive humans inhabiting as long as they don't throw themselves at walls.

Considering it wouldn't stand up to people falling or dropping things, that would make a nice building material. Imagine, for a moment, lifting a large heavy object. Say... an archive. It falls, purely accidentally, and the floor collapses under the fall.

Save habitat indeed.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Using the internal frame structure.

So in other words, they'd have to practically rebuild their homes after each case of bad weather?

And you're seriously believing this?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Why is naming this unknown material so important. How about Midchildran National Building Standard-52?

A name for the material would mean that it exists and functions differently from other materials, like 'Gundanium Alloy' or 'Mithril'. These materials have unique names that they were given, so one expects them to behave differently from normal materials. Since you don't have a name for the material, the credibility of its existence is questionable, and we assume it to be normal material.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, the problems are mandated by the observation. If someone is creating more problems, it is the author or the animator. Go write to them. And no, the problems don't disappear by burying your head in the sand.

Again. Pot. Kettle. Black. The observation does not 'mandate' the concrete to be weak, you, Ark, are the only one making such a claim. And you stick your head in the sand denying that framerate calculations can't be accurate all the time. Hypocrisy does not suit anyone, but you certainly make a great effort.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I am keeping every observation. True, the ruler is hard to fit when all multiple elements of the observations have to be used, but it is not impossible. Trying to make it easy by keeping only one element is lazy thinking. The denial of a solution that fits all the points and insisting on your one point, especially when that one point happens to favor your own prejudices...

Besides, having soft/crunchy exteriors may not be all a bad idea in Midchildra, so it might not be "Mid is dumb" at all. Remember that many Middies are mages, and so many would have super strength or speed. Presumably, sometimes, people might use that strength where they shouldn't - say a bar brawl,, family dispute, little kid playing with his magic, people putting on a spurt of super-speed so they aren't late for work ... the list goes on.

In these cases, it is hardly unthinkable they might lose control, like Subaru and Teana as they rushed towards the end goal in Ep1, and run themselves into a wall. Or people in a brawl blasting each other (say a criminal blasting a cop) into walls. In such a case, even a few millimeters of give in the wall will significantly prolong the deceleration phase, thus attenuating the peak deceleration and making the whole experience measurably more survivable.

Given this reality, it may be that Midchildran construction standards actually require, to the extent it won't fatally compromise the structural strength of a building, incorporation of crumple zones that give way with relative ease on impacts. This may be important to them that they'll accept a higher maintenance requirement on walls or even load limits on floors to ensure this safety.

Having people with super strength does not mean you should make buildings that can collapse in a stiff breeze. Instead of the safety measure you're suggesting, all you're doing is endangering people.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yes, but why assume the crater is drawn any more accurately than the speed? If they slow things down just to "Look Cool", they can scribble a crater where none should be just to look cool too.

*grin* Why yes, yes you can. In fact, that is probably the case. However, for you to admit such a thing would be to admit that animation is inherently an inaccurate medium for measuring, thus it would destroy virtually all your arguments so far and force you to step out of your calculations sandbox. And we know you won't do that.

On the other hand, should you take the dare and step out, nothing has changed. After all, the crater was drawn to look cool. What then, do you think, would be the mindset of the animator? Would it be 'hmm, I want the audience to go 'Wow! That enemy is strong! He just kicked Erio in the wall!' or would he think 'hmm, I want them to calculate the speed at which Erio was kicked and decide Mid walls are weak.'

It doesn't take half a braincell to realize that the animator was obviously going for the former rather then the later.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

And if I need a reason to cancel that observation, I will just point out about a normal human's survivability against the impact you want. If you mutter magic or Barrier Jackets (mostly the same thing), I'll point out with such fluffy excuses I can do the same for my soft buildings.

Ah, now there's the key difference between your 'middie walls are weak' claim and my 'Barrier Jackets shield them' claim.

I have canonical evidence to support it.

Remember when I asked you for evidence? A line by a character? A side comment in the booklet? A sign by the road saying 'Watch out! Weak concrete!'? You couldn't give me any, because you don't have any.

However, my Barrier Jacket claim has been supported by the manga, which blatantly states Barrier Jackets are defensive clothing that generate a Field and Barrier. It has been supported by booklet articles and vocal lines in the anime several times as well.

I have support for my claim, whereas you have none. Show me one inch of support, be they booklet, lines or a sign, and I will yield my claim and admit that Mid concrete is weak.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Why you can get away with fluff explanations while demanding detailed ones from me is unknown.

Because you don't use the fluff explanations, but insist on everything working according to physics. For example, fluff gave us Barrier Jackets as a defense, but instead of using the explanations fluff gave us, you go off on a tangent and invent new and totally unsupported ideas because they are 'conform to physics'

Cute, but if you reject canon material because you don't like that it doesn't conform to physics, then you can expect me to grind every idea with no canon support until I get a detailed explanation that satisfies me.

You can take the easy way out. It's called fluff. And canon. Give me a booklet entry or anything along those lines and you won't hear me complaining. I raised debates the size of our current one on the subject of magic damage, but when magic damage was made canon, I went 'well, I was wrong. Magic damage is canon.' Same thing here. If you can prove, by any form of canon material, lines, booklets, signs, that mid concrete is squishy, I will yield and admit my mistake. As long as you can't, I will stick to the options that canon gave us, rather then dive in unproven speculation.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Thermodynamically. Yes.

That's... interesting indeed. If no energy is expended to stop a falling object, why does a falling object cause damage when it falls?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Wow, how selfish and biased Vita is. You mean she didn't train any other units? Aah, nepotism in the TSAB!

Oh yes, it's selfish of Vita to actually agree on a request to train other units despite the fact that she has her own RF6 to worry about, and on her day off no less! Yes, how very selfish.

You're getting paranoid here, Ark.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I'll be more impressed if said larger force actually looked like it was aggressively trying to advance. I see them just standing back and skirmishing.

Remember what I said about animation being the first thing to suffer from budget cuts?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

A lot of strikes that might eventually (eventually being the key word) destroy a significant part of a city.

So? A naval bombardement would 'eventually' level the city. Doesn't change the fact that it's a hellalot of power, and in this case where one needs a number of our ships, a certain red-headed chibi called Vita can do the same thing armed with little more then a house-sized hammer.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, the guy that shot at Erio with a gun almost certainly did not get his from Earth

Ah, let me guess, you once again can't agree with tension creating techniques? Why do you bother to watch anything then reallity TV anyway?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

As I said to Jimmy, I can buy a thriving black market of mass weapons. But when it comes to a whole planet called Orusia...

Big planet. Heck, a planet in eternal turmoil and you expect them not to have weapons of our quallity?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Ways that are said not to work by the principal of their training school? Tough sell here.

Ways that are said they're 'not sure off their success' nothing had been proven up to that point. Yay. Still doesn't change anything, rather take a risk and stick to your standards then break them completely. Again, America could have done the safe thing and leveled Iraq. Instead, they went in, taking the tough route.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

No, actually it is NTSC vs film. PAL is 25 FPS, film is 24.

Yeah, you're right. Why does your version have the NTSC analog then?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, imagine this scene:

Operator: "Target A is approaching at 2000km/h!"

Shift to Target A. Target A is crawling across the sky. It is taking one minute to get through half the non-panning screen. Scaling it suggests it is moving at maybe 10km/h, max. On the side, other planes and birds overtake target A at more or less realistic speeds.

Operator: "Target A is still approaching at 2000km/h!"

Shift back to Target A, which is crawling through the other half of the scene... taking it well? Good animator?

A funny scenario, care to show me one? Since you so obviously want to portray it that way, surely you have an example?

You don't? Oh well, let me explain you why.

You just created a non-existent scenario that matches you bitterness and view of the subject. You clearly stated that birds were overtaking it and 'drawn flying at realistic speeds' regardless that Nanoha, or any other anime for that matter, has no such examples.

Now, an existing scene would be that Target A is flying at, say, the standard flying speed of the Nanoha mages. The operator will say "Target A is apraoching at 2000 KM/H!" Of course, the animator won't show Target A being overtaken by birds (why animate birds in the first place?) but when calculated, the frames still won't match up with the speed the operator says. And yet, at that point the target is flying at 2000 KM/H.

Why?

Because the operator said so. Because the script said so.

A script is the core of any media production. Without a script, no media production. Anime, Live Action, Sound Stages, Video Games, Manga, all are born from a script. That is also why the lines of a character are more important then what is being displayed on screen. Because an anime is a visualization of a script. For example, in Season 1 the earth was about to be destroyed. Analysis showed only earthquakes, and yet we as viewers know the earth was about to be destroyed. Why? Because the characters said so.

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

What's the Higher Value Target?

Uh... Vivio. The entire GFHQ was a feint.

Yeah. Except nobody knew that.

Most of your observations rely on hindsight. A lovely thing, but hardly usable at the moment the decision must be made.

Let's review:

They found Vivio with a Relic case chained to her. This says little, as Relics were smuggled all over the place by various people. That's why the Gadgets come to claim them. All a Relic case being close to Vivio tells them is that she was created by a criminal group

Jail, at the point, had expressed no current interest in Artificial Mages. He was focused on Gadgets and Relics. Again, no real reason to suspect him going after Vivio.

But here comes the kicker: Prior to her capture, the only interaction showed was Jail's Cyborgs attempting the shoot the heli she was in. Does this prove they didn't want her to fall into TSAB hands? No. Why?

Because shooting the heli was only a decoy to allow Lutecia and Agito to escape.

So let's look that bit over again. The enemy apparently didn't give a single bit about Vivio, as they just as easily shot the heli she was in to allow a little girl and a Unison Device to escape (remember, nobody except their enemies expected her to survive). After that, Ginga comes back with a report on who that truck carrying her life-pod belongs to.

Jail let independent organizations do the cloning, in fact he himself didn't even know of this clone untill after she woke up by his Gadgets coming to say 'hi' (the Gadgets were after the Relics in the truck, not Vivio) so there is no direct trace back to him.

Oh, and of course they didn't know Vivio was a clone of the Saint King until after she was kidnapped.

So what we have is a little six-year-old girl that was created by an unknown organization for an unknown cause. No direct relationship to Jail can be drawn. They don't know who the girl is, nor whom she was based on. Jail doesn't seem to care about her.

Nope, I don't see any reason for the cast to connect the dots, considering many of those dots weren't revealed until after the attack on the TSAB.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

The 'most annoying battalion' was only a small fly, considering Jail reeled in more Relic then he lost. The prophecy did not, in any way, indicated an attack coming from Jail specifically, nor did it indicated an attack against them. By all means, Hayate could have drawn all her knights to the front where the attack was expected. Instead, she opted to leave two of her finest to guard the home base. Just in case.

Hayate was way ahead of you.

In other words, Hayate split her forces in such a way that in the end, neither was enough? It would almost have been better if she had concentrated everything to defend GF HQ. Then we can say that she concentrated force. If you don't count Vivio (and I partially agree with you - it is more than forgivable to not have linked the dots), GF HQ does look to be the primary target. Instead, the split wound up failing to stop much of anything.

'heavy' and 'immediately arisen' is a contradiction, but that aside, this assumes the drone to be like a balloon. Subaru knocked it to the ground, it needed time to recover, Subaru didn't give it that time. Simple, effective, and plus points to Subaru for quick thinking.

It is a drone, not a man with shock.

Heavy and immediately arisen is NOT contradictory if you see it from a scientific perspective rather than a intuitive one - given however heavy it is, it clearly has the ability to float and maneuver, so assuming heavy means it has a large antigrav force output. The Force to Weight ratio change between before Subaru sat on it and after will be minimal, because Subaru would be a small fraction of the weight it usually lifts, and it'll immediately recover. In fact, if it is so heavy, it'll be very tough for Subaru's momentum to provide enough vector change to force it to the ground in the first place. However, if it is much lighter than Subaru, its antigrav drive only has a small output, so when Subaru jumps on it, the force to weight ratio is seriously and adversely affected - in other words, it can be successfully pinned down.

Think of it this way - it is the difference between an adult jumping onto a kid and a kid jumping onto an adult. Even if the kid knocks the adult down, the adult can get up without too much difficulty because his muscles are strong enough to fight the weight of the light kid. The kid is pinned down by the adult.

The fact that I said 'a few dozen' should tell anyone that it was a figure of speech. I could have said 'very high' and I would have said the same thing.

And no, it's not 'up to me to provide calculations if I want my point proven' because you damn well know that I don't believe in calculations of animation. I'm done playing in your sandbox, Ark. I have finally found a point which proves Subaru's strength and the toughness of the drone. The problem is, it isn't calculatable. You can't count the frames here.

And this has you scared, as it's starting to unravel all the calculated points you build up.

Not really. All it means is that you cannot scientifically substantiate your opinion.

Of course, unlike you who takes one scene and drags it out of proportion, I have looked at the total source material. If I hadn't looked at the manga, I wouldn't have brought up this point, as then the medium would be in your favor. However, Subaru has shown to have strength far above normal humans, and the fact that she slowly drills into the drone says something about it's armor, and it's not negative.

Well, I'll agree it is more positive, but to "score" how positive it is, your claim has to be quantified. Come on, Keroko. It isn't that hard. Guess what, a straight throw up scene DOES not require frames to estimate speeds and approximate force applied.

No, it's called twisting the evidence to suit your needs, discarding common sense and relying on pure unbased speculation.

Then tell me. Which part of the evidence had I actually ignored.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Your 'middie concrete is weak' is exactly the same thing. You can't make sense of a human being surviving being thrown into concrete, so you override the observation and call the concrete weak.

I can do that because the anime SHOWS the speed as slow. For example, I DID not do the same thing with Fate, did I. Why? Because the anime showed it (which proves beyond a doubt that the anime knows how to show such things, and in turn double-confirming that when it doesn't show it it definitely means something) and it is Terran concrete, which has known approximate strengths.

It is you that is having trouble sorting out your cognitive dissonance b/w the obviously slow speed and the cracked material which you can't break out of your mental schema of it being hard.

Hard rod in the middle would mean the pillars to be a geometric square, as the rod would be the central support with the superficial material only there for protection from the elements. Considering the pillars weren't square, but rather build wider to spread the weight support, this contradicts your theory.

T-bone pillar, maybe? Besides, it just means it isn't the most efficient shape. I'm sure that many shapes have been made in architecture not because of structural optimization, but for aesthetics.

Considering it wouldn't stand up to people falling or dropping things, that would make a nice building material. Imagine, for a moment, lifting a large heavy object. Say... an archive. It falls, purely accidentally, and the floor collapses under the fall.

Save habitat indeed.

Considering the speed that Erio and Caro did manage to do, I don't think normal drops would necessarily collapse the floor. Also, remember the hard structures - the worst that can happen is a large dent.

So in other words, they'd have to practically rebuild their homes after each case of bad weather?

And you're seriously believing this?

If that's what the show tells me, then yes. Your failure to do so is inadequate Suspension of Disbelief.

A name for the material would mean that it exists and functions differently from other materials, like 'Gundanium Alloy' or 'Mithril'. These materials have unique names that they were given, so one expects them to behave differently from normal materials. Since you don't have a name for the material, the credibility of its existence is questionable, and we assume it to be normal material.

Ahh, you are using literary convention where I use scientific methods. In the scientific method, materials with different mechanical properties are first discovered without a name. They are then given names. And let's face it, will you really be more willing to accept weak Middie concrete if it got a name like oh, "Arkhium"?

Again. Pot. Kettle. Black. The observation does not 'mandate' the concrete to be weak, you, Ark, are the only one making such a claim. And you stick your head in the sand denying that framerate calculations can't be accurate all the time. Hypocrisy does not suit anyone, but you certainly make a great effort.

ROFTLMAO. If you want to make an argument that given the circumstances, we should throw away the time element, that's one thing. To say that the observation itself does not mandate the concrete to be weak, while having to throw away an element to avoid the mandate is intellectually dishonest.

Try this, Keroko. Don't throw away any elements in that observation. Analyze it with the VELOCITY having to be exactly true and the apparent DAMAGE also being exactly true. What do you get?

Having people with super strength does not mean you should make buildings that can collapse in a stiff breeze. Instead of the safety measure you're suggesting, all you're doing is endangering people.

The frame should protect the building from collapse.

On the other hand, should you take the dare and step out, nothing has changed. After all, the crater was drawn to look cool. What then, do you think, would be the mindset of the animator? Would it be 'hmm, I want the audience to go 'Wow! That enemy is strong! He just kicked Erio in the wall!' or would he think 'hmm, I want them to calculate the speed at which Erio was kicked and decide Mid walls are weak.'

It doesn't take half a braincell to realize that the animator was obviously going for the former rather then the later.

Or was he actually going for "He just kicked Erio into the wall at low speed and yet it cracked?" Why don't you take that interpretation. You can't read the author's mind, and it was what was shown, after all. Maybe the author doesn't understand such a slow speed would never crack the wall, which makes trusting his intent a bit ... iffy. If his concept of concrete is different from ours (and what he draws is evidence of this), then how much good is it to go by his thoughts?

Ah, now there's the key difference between your 'middie walls are weak' claim and my 'Barrier Jackets shield them' claim.

I have canonical evidence to support it.

Remember when I asked you for evidence? A line by a character? A side comment in the booklet? A sign by the road saying 'Watch out! Weak concrete!'? You couldn't give me any, because you don't have any.

However, my Barrier Jacket claim has been supported by the manga, which blatantly states Barrier Jackets are defensive clothing that generate a Field and Barrier. It has been supported by booklet articles and vocal lines in the anime several times as well.

I have support for my claim, whereas you have none. Show me one inch of support, be they booklet, lines or a sign, and I will yield my claim and admit that Mid concrete is weak.

Actually, I have observations from the show to back me. You have unquantified claims, which were then clearly quantified and delineated by observations that you provided yourself!

That's... interesting indeed. If no energy is expended to keep an object from falling, why does a falling object cause damage when it falls?

Because it has KE, and force. When the falling object ("faller" for convenience) damages something, yes it damages it, but you'll notice it is also stopped - it loses its KE. The object that got damaged stopping your falling object ("victim") did not use any energy. KE was converted in this case into strain energy on the part of both the "faller" and the "victim", so the faller actually lost energy, and the victim actually gained some energy - it had to or it couldn't have strained enough to break.

Oh yes, it's selfish of Vita to actually agree on a request to train other units despite the fact that she has her own RF6 to worry about, and on her day off no less! Yes, how very selfish.

You're getting paranoid here, Ark.

Well, it is certainly nepostic.

Remember what I said about animation being the first thing to suffer from budget cuts?

A part of animation that suffered from budget cuts can't possibly be very important in the eyes of the production team.

So? A naval bombardement would 'eventually' level the city. Doesn't change the fact that it's a hellalot of power, and in this case where one needs a number of our ships, a certain red-headed chibi called Vita can do the same thing armed with little more then a house-sized hammer.

Did I say it was unimpressive. I just said there aren't a lot of these people.

Ah, let me guess, you once again can't agree with tension creating techniques? Why do you bother to watch anything then reallity TV anyway?

Tension creating techniques are nice, but they DO have consequences when the scene is actually analyzed. If you really believe that anime is for entertainment, why do you really care if analysis shows a poor result, or even weak concrete? It looks cool and that's what counts, right?

Of course, most fans are a bit hypocritical this way - they want their anime to be powerful and l33t, they want to hear how analysis proves the l33tness of their world. They don't want to hear the opposite.

Big planet. Heck, a planet in eternal turmoil and you expect them not to have weapons of our quallity?

I go by what seems to be happening. If you count Scarlietti's as typical mass weapons now, then come on, what did they look like.

Ways that are said they're 'not sure off their success' nothing had been proven up to that point. Yay. Still doesn't change anything, rather take a risk and stick to your standards then break them completely. Again, America could have done the safe thing and leveled Iraq. Instead, they went in, taking the tough route.

He said "The success rate won't be very high" and then even muttered about mass weapons.

Yeah, you're right. Why does your version have the NTSC analog then?

Actually, we use the same scene.

A funny scenario, care to show me one? Since you so obviously want to portray it that way, surely you have an example?

Sure. Not in speed, admittedly, animators know that they can't show such a speed disparity and maintain credibility. But in destruction this is actually very common. Starting with our beloved MGLN. Remember the end of our last debate - this was actually a carry over argument. Or if you like, Angol Moa in Sergeant Frog - you really have to apply a exponentials to her fractions to make the differences fit. There's also The Die is Cast in Star Trek if you want a live-action example.

You just created a non-existent scenario that matches you bitterness and view of the subject. You clearly stated that birds were overtaking it and 'drawn flying at realistic speeds' regardless that Nanoha, or any other anime for that matter, has no such examples.

Now, an existing scene would be that Target A is flying at, say, the standard flying speed of the Nanoha mages. The operator will say "Target A is apraoching at 2000 KM/H!" Of course, the animator won't show Target A being overtaken by birds (why animate birds in the first place?) but when calculated, the frames still won't match up with the speed the operator says. And yet, at that point the target is flying at 2000 KM/H.

Why?

Because the operator said so. Because the script said so.

I'm actually a bit disappointed. For a moment, I thought you would stand by your principles and say "In this scenario, the target is flying at 2000km/h because the operator said so. Because the script said so. Nice try, Ark. And your's is a non-existent scenario that matches your bitterness ... blah blah blah."

A script is the core of any media production. Without a script, no media production. Anime, Live Action, Sound Stages, Video Games, Manga, all are born from a script. That is also why the lines of a character are more important then what is being displayed on screen. Because an anime is a visualization of a script. For example, in Season 1 the earth was about to be destroyed. Analysis showed only earthquakes, and yet we as viewers know the earth was about to be destroyed. Why? Because the characters said so.

Actually, according to you, that would mean that the anime frames, as a refinement, is the latest version. New things always has some priority over the old - otherwise, the author won't be able to make changes. It is also the majority owner on the fine details. In other words, visuals win.

For a diversion from visuals, try this. Don't worry this time it is a more realistic scenario. Apparently, it was originally planned for Hayate to speak Kansai-ben, and her seiyuu changed it into Kobe-ben because it is softer (and I agree, it was the nicest Kansaish-ben I've heard in a long time). If the core script wasn't changed from its original Kansai-ben, then is Hayate a Kansai-ben speaker or Kobe-ben? Can you even imagine Hayate now in Kansai-ben?

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It's a contingency. One that did not come to pass. In what did happen, they had the need and opportunity to get the devices back. They'd be fools not to go for it.

Yes, they had the need, did they? They certainly had the opportunity. But if your scenario came to pass - somebody starts slaughtering, but the barrier isn't on, then what. Should they go run for their weapons or fight (assuming they can even reach the attackers).

So maybe it's not perfect. But it's far from being a complete failure. But then again, anything less a complete success appears to be a failure in your eyes. The fact is, no matter how good a defense they put up, no matter how long it really lasted, they won't bother showing more than a few seconds of it going down. And you'll say, "their defense sucks"

Given that they don't know how the attack, if it happens, will take place, if that was indeed the tactical choice they made, with your justification, it is one that tries to achieve a marginal benefit in a narrow range of scenarios at the cost of severe disadvantage in others. Which makes the choice worthy of criticism.

In that case, I've already stated my stand on the issue. Sending the Forwards inside would be wasting their lives in an attack. Units are "expendable" if they can be expected to accomplish something before expiring. Else, they're "wasted". In war, it is neccessary to spend lives, but it is never acceptable to waste them.

Actually, I'll prefer not to put anyone in there. However, IF I'm forced to put someone in there, and I know that in any serious attack they would be fried food, then obviously I'm not going to put my HVU in there.

Do you expect it to be shown if they did?

Actually yes. Really, the story is trying very hard to vilify Regius. What better way than to 1) Have our Protagonists Propose This Idea, 2) Regius flat out refuses in a boorish manner, 3) Ep16-17 happens.

By then, it would bring no positive results in time, and so would not be shown.

See above.

I don't think that one's fast enough to deal with the hordes of drones.

It is a multi-attack IIRC, so it does have a good capability.

So perhaps popping off her limiter here might be a good idea. Point to you.

Finally, agreement on one point.

And have you considered that if it didn't happen, then Arf is getting along just fine with a reduced energy flow?

Then what was Fate doing, feeding too much energy to mini-Arf before the limiter?

She's getting enough to get by, so that's not analogous.

If she's having about enough to begin with, and then the clamp dropped it to a small fraction, somehow, I doubt she's getting by too well. I can just see poor miserable little Arf listlessly moping the house due to having no energy - if she can move at all. It isn't like big Arf who has enough extra magic to fight so even a fraction might support an ordinary lifestyle.

The second won't work, I don't think Arf is an officer like Fate is.

Ginga wasn't an officer either, and she was transferred around just fine.

The first might work, but both Arf and Fate prefer to have her do something other than sit around wagging her tail. At the start of StrikerS, she was looking after Chrono's kids. After the GFHQ attack, she was at the Infinite Library.

Oh, because that was so much more useful than helping Fate directly.

And you still have to prove she has access to the extra energy that Fate can't use due to the limiter. Otherwise, her ability to fight is marginal at best.

Heck, if it MUST be according to your model, then Arf's energy surges as Fate flicks off the limiter. It might still be fine if Arf goes combat ready as Fate does, though as I said, what evidence there is seems to suggest Familiar Flow is separate, or handled prior to Limiter Flow.

There's also the fact that familiars are rather uncommon in TSAB-controlled space. Most mages prefer to keep the energy for their own use. This extra complication is worth it only if a lot of high-ranking mages use limiters and have familiars. That doesn't appear to be the case. So I still don't see why limiters would be designed to allow this.

The high value of elite and even demi-elite mages would suggest the extra mile be taken. There's also, deontologically, the matter of sentient rights - the master might agree to be limited, but why does the familiar automatically get clamped even when it is not his nor his master's wish. Really, there's no reason to believe that the limiter itself would need to be extra complicated - it just needs to be clamped in a different place. The downside and complicatiosn occurs only if you don't trust your elite mages, and saying so blatantly, and what does this say about the TSAB, hmm?

So you would prefer to see her fighting for five minutes while thinking, "maybe I should release my limiter?" They don't have time for that in a 24-minute episode.

Not hard. Scene 1: Fate starts fighting, starts thinking. Scene 2: Forwards. Scene 3: Fate still thinking 5 minutes later.

The fact is nevertheless, b/w Nanoha and Fate, you just can't get the idea the limiter is all that serious or hard to take off.

Wrong on two counts. First, they'll be blasting everything on their way to the PDS. Second, Jail can throw enough drones to continue hunting down people in the field while another detatchment works on the PDS.

Depends on where the PDS is.

Before they realise they're under attack? Are they supposed to be prescient now? And they had a proper evac plan for the personnel, Jail just threw in enough forces to overwhelm it.

I mean, how about as they see Otto and Deed moving in?

"Ground level" when the field is active is not the same as the surface of the inactive field.

Really. How large's the difference.

We were not shown how long it held up under bombardment, could have been 20 minutes, could have been 2 hours or more. We do know it was still holding out after it lost power, which is more than can be said about the field.

The whole attack took "ten and a few minutes" according to Ep18. Forget about any 2 hour standoffs.

This is ridiculous. The assault did evenually kill the base's power. But you know what? Everyone still had protection, because they were inside a real building. They lasted somewhat longer thanks to Vice. Had they been in the field at the time, even Vice would've been helpless.

Actually, by the end of it, IIRC the base was completely rolled over and was completely neutralized. They mostly weren't killed because Scarlietti wasn't particularly interested in killing them (more in destroying the base after grabbing Vivio) and Caro called Voltaire to fry the bombers.

Like Avatar mentioned, the training field is not a properly designed defensive position, the base is. RF6's situation is not analogous to Picard's in ST:FC. He used the holodeck to delay the Borg until he could get into a better position. RF6 is already in the best position it can be in during an attack. There's no point in leaving the base for the field's dubious additional cover.

I'm saying given its possibilities for use as a defensive complex, it should arguably have been hardened. Heck, the holodeck was an entertainment facility, and it still wound up having a defensive capacity.

And the base was a building hardly what one can call a "defensive position".

Further, here's another point. We tend to assume so far that when the power goes out, the pseudomatter in the game field dissolves pretty much instantly. However, is that necessarily the case? Pseudomatter is shown to hold together even in total-AMF cutoff situations - in other words mana resupply and linking is cut. Not only that, the pseudomatter should be eroding not only due to lack of flow, but from the constant bombardment of AMF emissions. Yet it never ever seems to even get damaged (however amusing dissolving Barrier Jackets might be to the audience...) Maybe it won't last forever, but remember, the whole battle lasted for less than 20 minutes. If that stuff keeps at least some cohesion without power for 20 minutes they win, and the limited evidence suggests I can get my 20 at least. Such a capacity will also guard against other outages of the PDS.

And like I said earlier, no matter how long the attack lasted, all we'd get to see are the defenders going down. Really, I got so poisoned by your dislike of how RF6 handled themselves at GFHQ that you could only think of their performance at their base as a complete failure, without giving Shamal, Zafira and Vice the credit they were due for its defense. You seem to think they folded in minutes and that if they had followed your plans, they might actually last long enough for help to arrive. Do you really think they're that pathetic?

I feel like Romanov, the deputy chief designer of the K-278 Kosomolets. I can only paraphrase his words. If Shamal, Zafira and Vice failed, it is not so much their fault as their misfortune, because there was so much that might have been done to at least buy a few extra minutes. Given that the whole attack was apparently less than 20 minutes long...

What makes you assume she was just sightseeing instead of being on her job as she was supposed to be?

I didn't say she was sightseeing, did I. But they should have stayed together and if they did, then Ginga won't have to face off Cinque and then Wendy and Novu alone. It can be a 5-3 and with a bit of luck Sein will soon have to come to save her sisters.

[Kagerou]

Originally Posted by Evil Rick

I think that it was more realism, not just plot thing, they are strong yes, but no matter how strong could someone be, facing that numbers of enemies marks the diference in all scenses

I disagree. In any and all cases, quality > quantity. You can't zerg rush a well-prepared enemy and expect to win; it just doesn't work. You and fifty buddies don't bring an M1911 to a gunfight when there are two people with M21s watching your approach. From 2000 meters. And you have no cover.

Originally Posted by Evil Rick

No, I think they don't, since they first mentionated Jail (can't remember exactly wich episode) they always spoke of him as a great treath that shouldn't be underestimated

Jail, yes, but not the Numbers. Key difference.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Well, Beam Baton Number literally blindsided Zafira; she was all stealthed and then *WHAM* cuts him down just as he's charging through the beamspam and evading. That shocks Shamal momentarily, and that little slip is enough to lose concentration on her barriers and to get overpowered.

As for being blindsided by the enemy - that's what the enemy does. Also, seriously, which is the higher value target? RF6 or GFHQ? Even watching the series, my bet was on GFHQ; I had a feeling they might go after Vivio, but the main target would be GFHQ. And furthermore, it's only after Vivio was kidnapped that the investigation results got back and revealed that she's a clone of the Sankt Kaiser. Without that knowledge, it didn't make sense to class RF6 as a high value target.

True... however, I can't help but feel like, given their resources, they could have altered their plans slightly.

They had a sniper at RF6 for fuck sakes.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

I do find it rather amusing, however, that when I called him out on being a hypocrite with regards to Nanoha, his only counter was that being half-assed was more hypocritical. But then when one is inherently half-assed since the beginning...

"Professor, yes Professor! I'll sit in this corner and SOD half-assedly."

*facepalm*

[Evil Rick]

Originally Posted by Kagerou

I disagree. In any and all cases, quality > quantity. You can't zerg rush a well-prepared enemy and expect to win; it just doesn't work. You and fifty buddies don't bring an M1911 to a gunfight when there are two people with M21s watching your approach. From 2000 meters. And you have no cover.

You'r missing the detail of the surprise factor in that moment, the attack was unespected, the weren't prepared, this detail combinated with the number of attackers, the ausence of the aces and the firepower of the attackers was what determinated the triumph of the gadgets, The TSAB is not just invincible

Jail, yes, but not the Numbers. Key difference.

And exactly in wich episode/ moment they express this? Point me a single moment in wich they underestimated the numbers

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Evil Rick

And exactly in wich episode/ moment they express this? Point me a single moment in wich they underestimated the numbers

Zafira dashing in to attack Otto, and then being surprise attacked by Deed. The mistake Zafira made here was assuming that the enemy he could see was the only enemy present. It's a common mistake, but a costly one when made at the wrong time.

Originally Posted by Kagerou

True... however, I can't help but feel like, given their resources, they could have altered their plans slightly.

They had a sniper at RF6 for fuck sakes.

From my non-militairy point of view, snipers are a good defense if you know where the enemy is coming from. After all, you need to know where to deploy them to get maximum effect. If you deploy before the battle and the enemy comes from a blind spot, you're useless unless you reposition. If the enemy comes from the direction you positioned yourself, you only work yourself in trouble.

Normally you'd say 'put the sniper on the roof' but in this case all enemies could fly, which made being on the roof a strategically unsafe position, rather then a safe one. No stuff to hide behind.

[Comartemis]

You'r missing the detail of the surprise factor in that moment, the attack was unespected, the weren't prepared, this detail combinated with the number of attackers, the ausence of the aces and the firepower of the attackers was what determinated the triumph of the gadgets, The TSAB is not just invincible

The comment wasn't made in regards to a surprise attack, but in the comparison of superior numbers to superior skill. The point is a valid one, however; RF6 was anything but "well-prepared" for the attack on home base, which took them completely by surprise and forced Shamal and Zafira to fight a desperate stalling action.

And exactly in wich episode/ moment they express this? Point me a single moment in wich they underestimated the numbers

It's not that the Bureau underestimated the Numbers, it was that they didn't know they existed. It's kinda hard to put strength figures on an opponent whose existence you aren't aware of.

"But they fought the Numbers in Episode 11! They did know of them!"

Not all of them. You still have the issue of unknown strengths and inadequate data to represent an attacking force if you don't know about the sum total of the enemy forces. This is part of the reason why Jail was able to succeed in his HQ attack; the defenders had inadequate knowledge of the opposing forces and so were taken by surprise by Lutecia's "teleport the gadgets into point blank range" trick--among many other such instances--and routed.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

I'mma requote my question just in case it was missed:

I posit that the reason Ark hasn't replied to this yet is very simple:

No such anime exists.

As for slow moving magic attacks, I would also like to point out that it is a real world effect that incoming tracers appear to have variable speed: from a distance, the tracer appears to crawl across the sky... then it gets closer and accelerates like fuck.

Originally Posted by Kagerou

I disagree. In any and all cases, quality > quantity. You can't zerg rush a well-prepared enemy and expect to win; it just doesn't work. You and fifty buddies don't bring an M1911 to a gunfight when there are two people with M21s watching your approach. From 2000 meters. And you have no cover.

Or, if said 2 guys are Marine snipers, M40A3s. There's a reason the USMC is still using the M40 after it made its debut in Vietnam. Quality is also how a USMC infantry platoon with just basic weapons (M4A1, M14DMR, M2, M203s, M82A3s) was able to beat off an attacking force of 250 AQI insurgents a few weeks ago.

True... however, I can't help but feel like, given their resources, they could have altered their plans slightly.

They had a sniper at RF6 for fuck sakes.

Well, like Keroko said, it's all about planning and positioning...on the other hand, repositioning is part and parcel of a sniper's skillset. Snipers always relocate, and never camp in the same place for long. Marine Snipers reposition after a single shot. (Unless they're suppressing an enemy infantry company so that artillery can rain down on them. Or if the Sniper and the Observer are fighting over the rifle. "Carlos, my turn!" "Just a few more minutes, sir." "That's what you said 2 hours ago goddamnit! MY TURN!" "MY turn, Captain." "My turn!" "My turn!" Sadly, this is a true story.)

Besides, who's to say that Vice wasn't sniping from a window first, before being forced to pull back to cover the rest of the support staff once everyone else got pwnt? (At least TF6 will have some backup for him, as well as Farmgirl Medic.)

But we're judging him too hard. He's not Hathcock... and even Hathcock knew when to call for artillery.

*facepalm*

*grins* I couldn't resist.

[arkhangelsk]

Keroko, as usual, I wind up doing your calcs for you, again. As usual, the answers weren't what you wanted, again. Here it is:
http://arkhangelsk.110mb.com/MGLN/SS/manga/p99.html

But don't lose hope yet. I might have made a math error.

[Arkeus]

Yeah, like assuming that the image was of Tea's highest altitude.

Or that Subaru straining a *bit* at the very beginning of her military training = Subaru straining at the beginning of strikerS with a high-quality device. Right.

Or, of course, *assuming that the mangaka cared about such things*.

and all of that is assuming you calc was correct, which i doubt.

Blah.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

However, IF I'm forced to put someone in there, and I know that in any serious attack they would be fried food, then obviously I'm not going to put my HVU in there.

They may not be "fried food", so the more experienced people still have a chance.

Really, the story is trying very hard to vilify Regius. What better way than to 1) Have our Protagonists Propose This Idea, 2) Regius flat out refuses in a boorish manner, 3) Ep16-17 happens.

The creators probably decided this was redundant because they have the captains handing over their devices to the Forwards and explaining those aren't allowed in the building. Considering what they had planned for him in later episodes, they probably felt something this trivial could be discarded.
Not to say it's not a bad idea, but I would agree with them that it's not important enough to animate.

It is a multi-attack IIRC, so it does have a good capability.

It doesn't cast fast enough. Ten shots, wait, ten shots, repeat.

If she's having about enough to begin with, and then the clamp dropped it to a small fraction, somehow, I doubt she's getting by too well.

I think I see the problem, you keep thinking of the energy flow as a percentage, what if it's a set number instead? It could be a tiny fraction of Fate's S-rank output, but a larger percentage of her AA-rank output, yet not enough to impact her performance.

Ginga wasn't an officer either, and she was transferred around just fine.

Did you miss the part where she mentioned that she was a (Master) Sargeant in the 108th Battalion? It's in ep10.

Oh, because that was so much more useful than helping Fate directly.

She doesn't need direct help that much these days. And those do beat sitting around waiting for something that may not happen (even though it in fact did).

Heck, if it MUST be according to your model, then Arf's energy surges as Fate flicks off the limiter.

Only if it's a percentage that changes dynamically instead of a fixed amount that doesn't.

The high value of elite and even demi-elite mages would suggest the extra mile be taken.

There don't appear to be that many of those that are using limiters. Of that small number, it seems that only Fate has a familiar. So I doubt it's worth the effort to create an exception.

Really, there's no reason to believe that the limiter itself would need to be extra complicated - it just needs to be clamped in a different place.

You're treating the Linker Core like it's a physical object with a port labeled "Familiar Output Channel" then the clamp the limiter elsewhere. You know that isn't the case!

Scene 1: Fate starts fighting, starts thinking. Scene 2: Forwards. Scene 3: Fate still thinking 5 minutes later.

If you insist on dissecting the scenes that way, do note that Fate and Nanoha engage the drones in ep11 at 11:30, the scene then switches around a bit, finally Fate decides she needs to release her limiter at 15:00. Less than 5 minutes, but that fits what you asked for. There's also several opportunities for timejumps, so there's a possibility that there's more than 4:30 minutes of realtime between scenes 1 and 3 here.

Depends on where the PDS is.

Unless it's under the field, it won't take long. If you said the fight lasted barely 10 minutes even with Shamal and Zafira, then it shouldn't take more than 2 minutes to level the base with no one defending it. Then everyone on the field will be exposed.

I mean, how about as they see Otto and Deed moving in?

Too late. Do you think everyone can instantly teleport to the field once the evac alarm sounds? It'll take a minute or 2 to run outside the building, then another minute or 2 to reach the field, at least 20 seconds to climb down the stairs and 10 more seconds to run into the field. Since they won't all be in a bunch and not all of them are as fit as the combat teams, the flow of people will last way more than that 4:30 minutes. Otto, Deed and the drones will certainly have arrived by then and started shooting. Now, Shamal and Zafira may have been able to hold the base for 10 minutes and keep everyone inside safe the whole time, but they can't possibly defend the length of that column for anywhere near as long.

Really. How large's the difference.

Could be quite a bit. Is it the the "ground level" of the abandoned city scenario, or the deepest basement in it? Losing power would be a bad time to find out, don't you think? Even if it's the former, they can't hide out in the open. And the buildings' ground floor may not be on the surface level either. A bit higher is survivable, but if it's lower instead...

The whole attack took "ten and a few minutes" according to Ep18.

Where in ep18? I can't seem to find it. The closest I can find is the pre-op where Hayate says HQ was paralyzed in minutes, not destroyed.

I'm saying given its possibilities for use as a defensive complex, it should arguably have been hardened.

Considering the sophistication of the field as it is, the outlay to turn it into a fully integrated part of the base's defenses might have been beyond RF6's budget. They aren't swimming in funds you know.

Heck, the holodeck was an entertainment facility, and it still wound up having a defensive capacity.

And I realised there's another problem with using the field. Now the Borg may have been too stupid to simply turn off the holodeck before entering, but I think Otto and Deed can figure that one out easily enough. The controls are accessible from outside the field. If they need to, they'll hold off on leveling the base until they deactivate the field. Wouldn't take too long with the inside information Jail has.

And the base was a building hardly what one can call a "defensive position".

And a realistic simulation of run-down styrofoam-built building is? You're the one who insists Mid's building materials are crap, remember? It's supposed to be a simulation of reality, why should it be any harder to destroy than the real thing?

We tend to assume so far that when the power goes out, the pseudomatter in the game field dissolves pretty much instantly. However, is that necessarily the case?

You have to convince me it generates pseudomatter on a large scale first, I still don't buy it. Don't forget, Trek's holodeck uses forcefields to give the illusion of solidity and tractors to give the illusion of moving in large open spaces. The field can interact with the devices and there are spells to hold people. These can be combined to give the illusion of solidity and physical resistance. Take Erio slicing the bridge in Ep3. What if, instead of cutting pseudomatter with the consistency of concrete, Strada is held back by a restraint, to the same degree as if it was cutting through concrete? Remember, it's all about simulating reality.

If Shamal, Zafira and Vice failed, it is not so much their fault as their misfortune, because there was so much that might have been done to at least buy a few extra minutes.

It would have never been enough, Jail could have poured in as many drones as neccessary to hasten the destruction of RF6's base. No matter what they did, they would still have been shown to go under in the same amount of time, and you would still say, "They should have done more"

But they should have stayed together and if they did, then Ginga won't have to face off Cinque and then Wendy and Novu alone.

It seems she was back with the 108th that day, you may have noticed that she wasn't even with the Forwards the night before the conference. She was doing her duty like the rest of them. And it's not like they knew of Jail's interest in the Type-0s. So, how would they know they needed to protect Ginga and Subaru?

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Keroko, as usual, I wind up doing your calcs for you, again. As usual, the answers weren't what you wanted, again. Here it is:
http://arkhangelsk.110mb.com/MGLN/SS/manga/p99.html

But don't lose hope yet. I might have made a math error.

Pardon me if I take this all with a grain of salt; you cannot dismiss the presumption of conflict of interest here. No one should be the judge of his own cause The fact that it's ark doing the calculations, and that ark has a vested interest in opposing keroko's arguments means that following the Test of Reasonableness there is implied bias here.

Ah, I miss Law... nah. Not really. But it's usefull, that it is.

I also find it ironically hilarious that the "Math Professor of Nanoha" is admitting that math is not his strong point.