Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[MorningGlory]

I did not know that Toori is the one that first notice in that Neito scene.I guess he is an idiot but not stupid ,but his face expression is very hard to tell if he is serious or not because he smile almost all the time..

[Haak]

So what happened at the end? Did Toori just force Honda to argue for the stance she was supposed to argue against? In which case the debate will become an absurd contest of who can make the dumbest arguments? And Honda wins because she has "The Last Say" advantage?

[4Tran]

That was a pretty bad episode all around. It would have made for a better show to just skip the events of episodes 6 and 7 altogether.

Originally Posted by Haak

So what happened at the end? Did Toori just force Honda to argue for the stance she was supposed to argue against? In which case the debate will become an absurd contest of who can make the dumbest arguments? And Honda wins because she has "The Last Say" advantage?

I think that the idea here is that Masazumi has to counter Toori argument. But if she succeeds in doing so, then they'd have to save P-01s. And if she fails, then the other team would have taken 2 out of three challenges, so they'd still have to go save P-01s. I'm not sure how this is supposed to work since real debates are based on demonstrating the superior position, but I guess that's Horizon-logic for you.

[Znail]

The thing is that she is in a logical bind. She has to argue for how to save Horizon and how to keep Musashi independent, but there is no way to do that without her losing the argument. Toori can pretend to be too stupid to see that, but there is noway for her to convince anyone that she can't see this. So her only way to at least gain a moral victory would be to concede the argument.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Solace

Toori's pretty awesome, in my opinion. I haven't seen a character of his type played off this well in a long time. He'd definitely fit in with classic characters like Vash the Stampede. He really is a lovable village idiot.

I think Justin Taylor is better analogy. We know Vash is better then he lets on. But no one has figure out if Taylor is a Idiot or a Genius.

[-Sho-]

Toori was smart but naked jokes is getting old. Stop with the dumb side & bring the serious one behind the smile.

[Kusa-San]

Damnit, another great episode ! This serie is getting better and better and now, I really like Aoi Toori. What a great character ! Not only Toori but I like all the cast now !

But dman, Toori is awesome and what I like the most about him is that you don't know if he's the biggest dumbass of the world or a true genius ! Toori mades me realize that sometimes, you can't make the difference

Can't wait for the next ep :333

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

Toori was smart but naked jokes is getting old. Stop with the dumb side & bring the serious one behind the smile.

No, Toori si great because you can't say if he's dumb or smart ! That's what make him a great chara !

Go Toori !

[Master Assassin]

... Toori really isn't called a troll for nothing... I loved everyone's reaction after Toori started the debate with the topic of giving up.

Priceless.

[Chaos2Frozen]

No matter how many times I'd watched it, the ending always cracks me up


There two types of lovable idiots, the one with a heart of gold (Akihisa), and the one that nobody can predict what he's going to do which is Toori

[Einst]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That was a pretty bad episode all around. It would have made for a better show to just skip the events of episodes 6 and 7 altogether.


I think that the idea here is that Masazumi has to counter Toori argument. But if she succeeds in doing so, then they'd have to save P-01s. And if she fails, then the other team would have taken 2 out of three challenges, so they'd still have to go save P-01s. I'm not sure how this is supposed to work since real debates are based on demonstrating the superior position, but I guess that's Horizon-logic for you.

Well if without the events of ep 6-7 there would not be ep 8-9. Its one of the main story events.

Guess you didnt understand at all, masazumi vs toori debate battle occurred because the score is 1-1 to testament-musashi side. Shirojiro win against Naomasa meanwhile Suzu lost to Neito. Although Suzu's defeat made Neito side with the musashi side.

The debate here same as the real debate as explained by Mitsuki.. I dont know whats this horizon logic of yours though.

[Holy Knight]

Masazumi's reaction at the end... priceless.

And its sad for me to finally realize that Tori's argument wasn't completely random/stupid, but potentially clever.

[Morisato]

Some of the terminology is going over my head...

How exactly do donations of money get turned into fuel/energy? And I have no idea how Shiro won that fight. Ok so Heidi bought that old building for him to smash up... how exactly does that defeat Naomasa? Did smashing into that wooden house really break her God of War that much? I didn't get the deal with Shiro dodging the mecha palm by digging a hole underneath himself. The whole concept with the Shinto Gods is kinda confusing to me. Do these being have any stake in the world? Or do they not care what happens to the world, live or die.

And the country loans... are they actually borrowing money or energy or what? If all these countries besides Far East are military dictatorships, what do they need to borrow money for if they rule over their people/slaves with fear and violence?

[MorningGlory]

^
I think Naomasa had lose the match before even Heidi bought that building and make her fall.I think its more like Shiro convince over her by joining the fight.Naomasa can still fight on if she want to.
The shinto God is like credit card I guess,its just a transaction for something to another thing.

Borrowing money is not even necessary if you can use slave to earn money for you..not to mention they own the whole Musashi as well .That is why they don't even bother spending some investment on transferring the citizen from Musashi to Mikawa.People need house to live and house doesn't grow from land.

[Kusa-San]

Shiro won the fight because he showed to Naomasa that they were able to fight back. It's not a matter of defeating Naomasa completely but to show her that they are strong enough to fight against strong opponent.

[Suiri Megami Alice]

As for how Shiro defeated Naomasa, if you haven't read stuopidget's post in the tech/weapon/etc thread:

Originally Posted by stuopidget

Also, as already mentioned in episode 1, the ship has multi-layer for housing, obviously the top floor is the most expensive, and this area is actually one of the fancier areas too, imagine buying the most expensive top floor apartments of downtown New York. In the novel, Shiro actually bought the underground layers too, so Suzaku actually fell all the way down and was covered by debris it couldn't get up.

You can also read the Shinto mechanics used in there, like how Shiro was able to fight evenly with a heavy God of War.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Morisato

Some of the terminology is going over my head...

How exactly do donations of money get turned into fuel/energy? And I have no idea how Shiro won that fight. Ok so Heidi bought that old building for him to smash up... how exactly does that defeat Naomasa? Did smashing into that wooden house really break her God of War that much? I didn't get the deal with Shiro dodging the mecha palm by digging a hole underneath himself. The whole concept with the Shinto Gods is kinda confusing to me. Do these being have any stake in the world? Or do they not care what happens to the world, live or die.

And the country loans... are they actually borrowing money or energy or what? If all these countries besides Far East are military dictatorships, what do they need to borrow money for if they rule over their people/slaves with fear and violence?

Slow down there, if you take it one step at a time you won't get so confused. Basically spells in Horizon require money to use. All those blasting that the Wing-girls do aren't free spamming, ammo cost money. That money goes to the Shinto Gods as 'donations' for their 'blessings' or spells. So in other words money makes the world go round.

What Shiro did was to buy up 150 guards for an one's labour, and because his contract was with a Shinto God of Commerce, he was able to tap into the Shinto God that protects the guards; read use their ability. The reason why he choose the number 150 was to match the Heavy God of War's 10 ton weight.

Now on to the question about the other countries, no they're only oppressing the Far East citizens. However, they're doing it in a way that's trying to not make themselves look too much like the bad guys otherwise they wouldn't have allow them any form of independence, which in the end it looks like they're planning to take over Musashi one way or the other.

To further explain,

Originally Posted by stuopidget

The fact that Far East is the only place that has banks is because none of the other factions (which are mostly "Christians" and "Muslims") allow charging of interests, so they don't have banks as a viable profession. When Shiro said the other factions taking out loans, he really meant that they basically just force it out of Far East but still leaving notes saying they will pay Far East back. All loans get defaulted if Musashi, the last Far East independent entity, gets taken over.

It's ok if you don't entirely understand this part, but the MOST important fact to remember is Musashi is currently the biggest energy fuel tank in the entire "world". Because of the unique Shinto system that Musashi has, you can think of money = fuel = labor (service) all interchangeably.

[Kunagisa]

To further clarify why Naomasa lost.

When Heidi bought that area (including the work that goes into holding the floor together), the entire battlefield basically turned into a brittle "swamp" for Suzaku. If nothing happens, Suzaku can still stand up straight, but just a simple push from Shiro sends it sprawling to the ground. Meanwhile, Shiro is the owner of the area, so he can just make holes in the ground to avoid attacks etc.

Originally Posted by Morisato

And the country loans... are they actually borrowing money or energy or what? If all these countries besides Far East are military dictatorships, what do they need to borrow money for if they rule over their people/slaves with fear and violence?

This is the clever part. While Far East is the underdog, not all the other factions are unified. PAOda is not on the same side as KPA Italia for example. Remember this?



Musashi is a fat piece of meat. Everyone wants a piece of it, but the moment anyone makes a move WITHOUT REASON to try to grab the whole thing, all the others will be united to fight you because you become the instigator.

Sharing = OK
Monopoly = you singled out as the troublemaker

Mikawa was "technically" was under Testament Union rule; this allowed grounds for KPA Italia to pass judgment on Horizon and potentially lay claim to Musashi due to Musashi's ties with Mikawa. I can talk a bit more about this but this might be explained more in a future episode (probably episode 10 and I'm pretty sure it won't get axed or else the entire plot goes to shit), so I don't want to spoil here. You're always free to ask in the novel thread if you want further clarification NOW (which I don't think is necessary).

[MorningGlory]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

S
Now on to the question about the other countries, no they're only oppressing the Far East citizens. However, they're doing it in a way that's trying to not make themselves look too much like the bad guys otherwise they wouldn't have allow them any form of independence, which in the end it looks like they're planning to take over Musashi one way or the other.

If they become a dictator,it is pointless for Far East to invest money in the bank ...That is why people want to withdraw their money from the bank after Sensei blow up that factory.People scare their money gone bybe bybe lol

[Chaos2Frozen]

It's hard to blame them since in Horizon, Money is literally power