Log Horizon - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[orion]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

Because Minori is canonly 14 years old. And while Japan as a whole has a legal age of 13, most prefectures much like US States and various laws, further limit this age. For instance, in Tokyo itself, the legal age is 18 years old. This is pretty typical.

So legally, Shiroe screwing Minori, at least in Japan itself? Illegal. In this world there are no laws except what you make. But I'd be pretty squicked at a man in his early to mid twenties having a relationship with a fourteen year old.

But they aren't in Japan so it's whatever rules that apply to their current location.

[Tenzen12]

You should properly read post before answering them. Ickarium adressed this one:

Originally Posted by Hitenma

I don't care about the moral POV (as each one has his own) but I fail to see why the relationship between Shiroe & Minori (if there is) is illegal (real world's law, not Akiba's).

As you can see you are missing point.

All that said, It's clear we didn't see every single law established by RT (well we didn't actualy see even fragment of its work) so it's not confirmed there difinitely isn't such law. So it would be correct say there probably or possibly isn't.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by bahamut zero

Probably wheelchair basketball *rimshot*

I forgot about Tohya's real-life disability. I was thinking about his avatar at the time. If he were real, I'd apologize.

Maybe Go or Shougi then?

[orion]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

You should properly read post before answering them. Ickarium adressed this one:


As you can see you are missing point.

All that said, It's clear we didn't see every single law established by RT (well we didn't actualy see even fragment of its work) so it's not confirmed there difinitely isn't such law. So it would be correct say there probably or possibly isn't.

I read that post. I'm just not seeing what the discussion is going on this long about something that most likely doesn't have the same rules as modern Japan.

Besides those guys in the café weren't calling him a lolicon or anything. They were jealous of him being there with 2 girls. No lolicon jabs coming from them. So it could be possible that the people there won't care as much as the posters here.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by orion

Besides those guys in the café weren't calling him a lolicon or anything. They were jealous of him being there with 2 girls. No lolicon jabs coming from them. So it could be possible that the people there won't care as much as the posters here.

Actually in the novel. They called him lolicon but its nhk which is probably why they removed that part. Which is also probably why some people are making a huge debate about this particular romance between a 14 year old girl and a 22 year old man.

[The Green One]

Well of course they remove the lolicon message stuff, they don't want the kids who watch this show to be asking....

"Mommy, what's a lolicon?"

That would be an awkward conversation....

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

Actually in the novel. They called him lolicon but its nhk which is probably why they removed that part. Which is also probably why some people are making a huge debate about this particular romance between a 14 year old girl and a 22 year old man.

wow good info, shiroe our proclamed lolicon harem king... lol

Originally Posted by The Green One

Well of course they remove the lolicon message stuff, they don't want the kids who watch this show to be asking....

"Mommy, what's a lolicon?"

That would be an awkward conversation....

for me is worts make the childrens see being perfect normally a 22 years old guy in a date with a 14 years children >.>, than peoples calling him lolicon, cuz at last childrens gonna learn who this is wrong.

[Krono]

A few things I don't think people are considering. For starters, not only do the adventurers currently not have laws governing sex with minors, they pretty much can't for the time being. The apocalypse has left people's size and gender scrambled. For all that people were giving Shiroe the evil eye, for all they knew (assuming they didn't recognize Shiroe himself) they were looking at two 14 year old girls, and a 14 year old boy. Or two 23 year old women and a 14 year old boy. Or two 23 year old men (currently in the bodies shaped like little girls) and a 14 year old girl (current in a body shaped like a 23 year old man). In other words, it's something that is virtually impossible to determine or enforce.

Speaking of their bodies, we know very little of the adventurer bodies. As far as the world of Elder Tales is concerned, they sprung into existence fully formed and have been around unaging for decades, or even centuries. For all that Minori is 14, her adventurer body could easily be an adult body that just happens to be that shape and size, much like Akatsuki's current body. So it's highly possible that in Elder Tales, Minori (and Touya) have no physical "growing up" to do, which is something some people seem to be assuming will take place.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

In medieval times, it was nothing special yes.

In medieval times? My great aunt got married when she was 16. That was just 70 years ago, and it wasn't considered remarkable at the time. Granted her husband was about the same age, but the point is that the increase in the minimum expect age for marriage is a relatively recent social change.

Originally Posted by Hitenma

I don't care about the moral POV (as each one has his own) but I fail to see why the relationship between Shiroe & Minori (if there is) is illegal (real world's law, not Akiba's).

Most jurisdictions in industrialized countries have laws prohibiting and punishing sexual activity between adults and children, and Shiroe and Minori's real world ages would run afoul of those laws. Most people commenting are operating under the assumption that "a romantic relationship" means "a sexual relationship in a time frame where Minori would still be young enough for them to run afoul of those laws."

That Shiroe could theoretically date Minori, and they just do not do anything sexual for the 3-4 years it would take for Minori to become old enough is a possibility people just don't take very seriously.

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by Krono

A few things I don't think people are considering. For starters, not only do the adventurers currently not have laws governing sex with minors, they pretty much can't for the time being. The apocalypse has left people's size and gender scrambled. For all that people were giving Shiroe the evil eye, for all they knew (assuming they didn't recognize Shiroe himself) they were looking at two 14 year old girls, and a 14 year old boy. Or two 23 year old women and a 14 year old boy. Or two 23 year old men (currently in the bodies shaped like little girls) and a 14 year old girl (current in a body shaped like a 23 year old man). In other words, it's something that is virtually impossible to determine or enforce.

Speaking of their bodies, we know very little of the adventurer bodies. As far as the world of Elder Tales is concerned, they sprung into existence fully formed and have been around unaging for decades, or even centuries. For all that Minori is 14, her adventurer body could easily be an adult body that just happens to be that shape and size, much like Akatsuki's current body. So it's highly possible that in Elder Tales, Minori (and Touya) have no physical "growing up" to do, which is something some people seem to be assuming will take place.

this not a big problem we have special potion who can change your body/gender to one who match more you real body, like akatsuki did.

then is perfect possible, for what we know specially in flashback most of elder tales adventures have a avatar who actually match their real aparence in real world ofcourse we have peoples who like to play the gender bender, like akatsuki did in beginner or the guy in body of girl during the battle, then is easy to fix missmatch bodys

In medieval times? My great aunt got married when she was 16. That was just 70 years ago, and it wasn't considered remarkable at the time. Granted her husband was about the same age, but the point is that the increase in the minimum expect age for marriage is a relatively recent social change.



Most jurisdictions in industrialized countries have laws prohibiting and punishing sexual activity between adults and children, and Shiroe and Minori's real world ages would run afoul of those laws. Most people commenting are operating under the assumption that "a romantic relationship" means "a sexual relationship in a time frame where Minori would still be young enough for them to run afoul of those laws."

That Shiroe could theoretically date Minori, and they just do not do anything sexual for the 3-4 years it would take for Minori to become old enough is a possibility people just don't take very seriously.

about adult and children relationship this not just moral or laws but can also bring problems of psychological or physical nature (health), for the children, this is also one of the reasons is wrong do this, romance is wondefull and cut, but we must take in regards the children physical and psychological integrity.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by ellessarr

this not a big problem we have special potion who can change your body/gender to one who match more you real body, like akatsuki did.

then is perfect possible, for what we know specially in flashback most of elder tales adventures have a avatar who actually match their real aparence in real world ofcourse we have peoples who like to play the gender bender, like akatsuki did in beginner or the guy in body of girl during the battle, then is easy to fix missmatch bodys

The appearance reset potion was an event giveaway. The only way to get one at the time of the apocalypse would be to track down someone like Shiroe that had gotten one, but never used it.

So it is quite the big problem as there is a finite amount with no ready source of replacement. So no, it is not easy to fix mismatched bodies.

Furthermore, even assuming they secure a replacement for the potion, that does not mean that everyone will suddenly use it. People will have had months to grow accustom to their new bodies, and may not feel the need to change. People will be unlikely to abandon the racial traits and bonuses of their character just to appear human again. Nor will people using it be necessarily be using it to move closer to their normal appearance. It would certainly benefit someone like Touya to be closer to Naotsgu in size to better fulfill his role in combat. It would benefit people like Akatsuki, Minori, and Serara to have a more adult appearance to be taken more seriously, even if they're still a child.

So an appearance changing potion becoming readily available will not automatically fix the problem. Especially since it would need to spread to other regions, and in the mean time, adventurers from other regions would continue to have the same "problem".

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Until we know otherwise, I think it is safe to assume time still functions the same.

Everything else changed, so its not as safe to assume as you think it is.
I give you that the human brain would be, in case of VR, be capable of such a thing though.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Occasional? It was quite common for the merchant, the farmer, etc. to marry their daughters to someone older of better social standing, so an age gap was not something heard of but mostly unseen.

The main factor was wealth, not social standing.
In fact marring someone of lower social standing would let their children (and the wife) keep the lower social standing instead of being elevated to the higher one.
(At least in the former HRE).
Furthermore I was talking of the grand scale in the first place, as the majority of people were not even middle class.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

IMO that analogy goes to show that Minori's life experience is normal for a gitl her age, if she were older she would understand what Shiroe really is for her, a true leaders, limiiting him to the role of a pedagogue is somewhat offensive.

As it has already been said, Shiroe is exactly that to her - a teacher.
If you watched the preview at the end of the show, next episodes title even tells you that she will become his apprentice.

Originally Posted by Ickarium

Because Minori is canonly 14 years old. And while Japan as a whole has a legal age of 13, most prefectures much like US States and various laws, further limit this age. For instance, in Tokyo itself, the legal age is 18 years old. This is pretty typical.

I once heard it was even 17, it really differs from country to country.
It should be noted that there is usually also a difference between legal marriable-age and 'legal' age in the sense that could be problematic.

Originally Posted by Ickarium

So legally, Shiroe screwing Minori, at least in Japan itself? Illegal. In this world there are no laws except what you make. But I'd be pretty squicked at a man in his early to mid twenties having a relationship with a fourteen year old.

The argument was about what is when they come back in the first place, and considering how they are on the Japan server they are technically still in Japan

Originally Posted by Krono

A few things I don't think people are considering. For starters, not only do the adventurers currently not have laws governing sex with minors, they pretty much can't for the time being. The apocalypse has left people's size and gender scrambled. For all that people were giving Shiroe the evil eye, for all they knew (assuming they didn't recognize Shiroe himself) they were looking at two 14 year old girls, and a 14 year old boy. Or two 23 year old women and a 14 year old boy. Or two 23 year old men (currently in the bodies shaped like little girls) and a 14 year old girl (current in a body shaped like a 23 year old man). In other words, it's something that is virtually impossible to determine or enforce.

Shiroe however knows that Minori is 14.

Originally Posted by Krono

Speaking of their bodies, we know very little of the adventurer bodies. As far as the world of Elder Tales is concerned, they sprung into existence fully formed and have been around unaging for decades, or even centuries. For all that Minori is 14, her adventurer body could easily be an adult body that just happens to be that shape and size, much like Akatsuki's current body. So it's highly possible that in Elder Tales, Minori (and Touya) have no physical "growing up" to do, which is something some people seem to be assuming will take place.

Whether they can physically grow has yet to be seen considering the apocalypse.
At least in the Anime we haven't been given information whether they could grow before and after the Apocalypse.
In Mabinogi for example your character would physically age once a week.

I agree that it might be difficult for non-human races though.

Originally Posted by Krono

In medieval times? My great aunt got married when she was 16. That was just 70 years ago, and it wasn't considered remarkable at the time. Granted her husband was about the same age, but the point is that the increase in the minimum expect age for marriage is a relatively recent social change.

16 and 14 is a difference though.
Marrying younger than the general legal marrying age is usually tied to conditions though.
In my country for example they are a minimum age for them too, as well as the other partner being at least 18. - Plus parental consent.

You also have to differ between a church marriage and a civil marriage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

Originally Posted by Krono

Most jurisdictions in industrialized countries have laws prohibiting and punishing sexual activity between adults and children, and Shiroe and Minori's real world ages would run afoul of those laws. Most people commenting are operating under the assumption that "a romantic relationship" means "a sexual relationship in a time frame where Minori would still be young enough for them to run afoul of those laws."

I got no idea how the discussion started in the first place, but I think someone called Minori jailbait, so the discussion already started under that assumption.

Either way, Shiroe is an adult man and Minori is an easily influenced child. - Which is what makes it wrong in the first place.

Originally Posted by ellessarr

this not a big problem we have special potion who can change your body/gender to one who match more you real body, like akatsuki did.

then is perfect possible, for what we know specially in flashback most of elder tales adventures have a avatar who actually match their real aparence in real world ofcourse we have peoples who like to play the gender bender, like akatsuki did in beginner or the guy in body of girl during the battle, then is easy to fix missmatch bodys

The potion is very rare though and was only given out once.

Originally Posted by ellessarr

about adult and children relationship this not just moral or laws but can also bring problems of psychological or physical nature (health), for the children, this is also one of the reasons is wrong do this, romance is wondefull and cut, but we must take in regards the children physical and psychological integrity.

Pretty much this.
What you summed up here is btw part of the reasoning behind those laws.

[Seitsuki]

Funny since the age of puberty has been dropping like a rock, kids are bombarded with sexual content and unrealistic expectations the moment they're old enough to watch TV, read books or ( dear Lord ) access the Internet, exploitation of the youngest generation is at a peak, but god forbid an intelligent teenager try to get into a relationship with a responsible caring adult. Think of the children! /headdesk

[FRS]

A lighter episode, full of cute scenes , i laughed when they show the Reynessia minis that some were selling.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

Funny since the age of puberty has been dropping like a rock, kids are bombarded with sexual content and unrealistic expectations the moment they're old enough to watch TV, read books or ( dear Lord ) access the Internet, exploitation of the youngest generation is at a peak, but god forbid an intelligent teenager try to get into a relationship with a responsible caring adult. Think of the children! /headdesk

Personaly I don't explicitly disagree with what you said (I am probably only one who didn't have problem with Usagi Drop), but because there are exceptions out of norm doesn't mean norm itself is wrong and lets be honest, Minori is kid, maybe inteligent one, but still kid both by norm and mentaly.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Personaly I don't explicitly disagree with what you said (I am probably only one who didn't have problem with Usagi Drop), but because there are exceptions out of norm doesn't mean norm itself is wrong and lets be honest, Minori is kid, maybe inteligent one, but still kid both by norm and mentaly.

Laws are not made for reasonable and mature people.
They are, by necessity, made for the average person, and take into account the lowest common denominator.

[Tenzen12]

Thanks for agreement?

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Thanks for agreement?

You're welcome.
And yes, i was agreeing with you and reinforcing the point from another angle (might have needed to be more clear on that).

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

Funny since the age of puberty has been dropping like a rock, kids are bombarded with sexual content and unrealistic expectations the moment they're old enough to watch TV, read books or ( dear Lord ) access the Internet, exploitation of the youngest generation is at a peak, but god forbid an intelligent teenager try to get into a relationship with a responsible caring adult. Think of the children! /headdesk

Tenzen and j4n1 already summed it up very well.

An addition though:
The fact that they are bombarded with and aware of something doesn't necessarily mean they fully comprehend it.

And while Minori may fall under the term 'above average' she is still far from being mature enough to fully understand what a relationship means.
She didn't even realize what part was wrong with her sentence.
It wasn't the 'its not fair' part, but rather the 'he is mine' part as even if they were a couple he wouldn't be her property. (though there are a lot of adults not getting that either out there.)

The other thing is that people seem to be under the impression that everything would remain platonical, while Akatsuki was already annoyed with herself for 'loosing to a middle schooler' and Minori will most likely continue to be more agressive than Akatsuki. as Minori already said: She hasn't done done anything yet.

In the end, its a devil's circle, as both Minori and Akatsuki will try to set the bar higher than the other one, and lets be honest, despite being shy and having a small physicque, Akatsuki is still an adult .


From the Preview(referring to Minori):
'The girl simply admired him. She wanted to be like him... To follow him... To stand behind him. That was all. '

That preview text alone is enough of a hint to determine how easily she is influenced by him btw.

Originally Posted by FRS

A lighter episode, full of cute scenes , i laughed when they show the Reynessia minis that some were selling.

That was a case of very smart product placement.

[ellessarr]

ok

potion, - limited, well remember adventures have the power to change the world, what can prevent the adventures create their own potions, remember they already started to create things that do not exist in this world, and rewrite laws making landers can become adventurers, then start to create that potion could not be so hard or impossible, as far we know with world magic and others thing who shiroe learned and we see the adventures are only limited to their own knowledge about what their can do in this world.

another detail about missmatch, toward races is fine if peoples want keep their races, but "gender" dont have nothing special than more a personnal taste, a guy using a female body, unless who have some sort of special fetiche like yuri, i dont see any big change if him just change his gender to his original gender if him want have a girlfriend or wife in future and does sex as a hetero, many peoples specially males does this more for "fetiche" reasons like i'm a man then i dont want to see a malee ass in my sight or take advantage of gender to fool peoples to gain things, but once their see themselfs being the "woman" i dont see at last the ones who not are for the "fool" have problem to go back to their gender

otherwise unles the person is a gay or lesbian gender dont gonna give any sort of "trait" who can make everyone willing to change.

again like ac-phoenix told just because the media and internet can/keep bombing childrens with this, this not means who their have enough mature/knowledge to interpert right that things, just talk with good professionals psychologists or psychiatrists about "force childrens in the world of adult to early

and like i told is not just psychological or emotional is also physical, childrens doing sex with "adults" 20+ can does big damage to childrens and make then grow physically wrong, make then develop some common disorder in adult age during the childhood.

well about laws in japan, to have sex is 13 however only with another "children" still proibited have sex with adults in most of the japan places(japan is somehow like USA while we have a overall federal law, each province have freedom to set their own laws and unless that laws great goes conflict with "important"federal laws then the government dont care or have too much problem with them) to a adult marry a teenager the minimum age is 16 for girls and 18 for guys and only after the official proposal of marriage who the adult can have sex and even the government or family advise the adult wait until the children be at last 18 years od to have sex, otherwise have sex for sex with adults only 18+ in most of japaneses province.

for me if minori was something like at last 16 years i could not see to much problem because her body already at minimum or near full mature and her mind also already learned and matured near full, but a adult take a children is just a adult taking advantage over a children who is exactly in the worst moment of her life for that things(between 12 and 16) the rebellious phase where she start to show curiosity and interest and what is wrong "can look right", where is common children disagree with family especially when she is wrong and things like that.

i'm not saying who this is this case but imagine shiroe fall for minori and does sex with her, then she get pregnant, do you believe being a mother at 14 or 15 years old is something good for her??? all the burden to take care of a children to "another children"????, all the estress of hold a children, then when the children born the chance of her can not properly breastfeed the child since her body has not matured properlythis can lead to a horrible trauma to her(because in fiction(specially anime) everything is perfect and that problems never happen or never gonna be a problem, she gonna have a children and take care of her require a good attention who a children can't be ready to have.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by ellessarr

ok

potion, - limited, well remember adventures have the power to change the world, what can prevent the adventures create their own potions, remember they already started to create things that do not exist in this world, and rewrite laws making landers can become adventurers, then start to create that potion could not be so hard or impossible, as far we know with world magic and others thing who shiroe learned and we see the adventures are only limited to their own knowledge about what their can do in this world.

The potion was a magic potion though and Shiroe does everything he can to make a secret out of the possibility to create new magic atm´, also finding out the recipe is a lot harder than making something like for example a stronger healing potion.