To Aru Majutsu no Index Light Novel Discussion (Archives)

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And who would these "other H4X people" be?

Aleister = pawns Fiamma like a kid
Aiwass = ? ? ?
Fiamma = star destroyer
Accelerator = at least planet destroyer
Fuze no Kazakiri = can turn planets to cinders
any type of angel class or divine beings

[Flere821]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And who would these "other H4X people" be?

Gabriel, who can just stop the Earth from turning and make it implode.

Accel (before Black Wings), by collecting the vectors of the Earth and launch a attack more powerful than any nuke.

Fiamma of the Right, launching the Star of Bethlehem and using the Golden Arms to cleanse the Earth. His Holy Right is theoretically able to destroy the world in one attack.

Aiwass, who is probably the most powerful being shown in series so far...

Really, there's quite a few out there.

Edit: ninja'd

[Karna]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

Aleister = pawns Fiamma like a kid
Aiwass = ? ? ?
Fiamma = star destroyer
Accelerator = at least planet destroyer
Fuze no Kazakiri = can turn planets to cinders
any type of angel class or divine beings

Accelerator can only lifewipe and evaporate all the oceans on earth, but not destroy the whole planet.

When did FUSE become a planet buster?

[kaizerknight01]

so i guess that the imagine breaker or theKAMIJOU is the proverbial monkey wrench that throws everything out of whack

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Flere821

Anyway, the 'Parameter List' is basically a estimation to what point a esper can get up to while using minimal resources. It's like diminishing returns, where at beginning it might take 1 unit of resource to get 100 units of power, eventually it might get up to 100 or 1,000 units of resource to get that 100 unit of power. At a certain point it's just not efficient to let the esper keep growing, so AC will move the resources to someone else.

Okay, so basically they'll help the Esper up to the point where they can't improve any more without burning through more reasources that could be better spent on other students.

That to say, there is also a point where no amount of reasource added would help the Esper to level up.

Harsh as it sounds it makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Flere821

Mikoto, according to the afterword, basically haven't reached the limits of her power yet, she can still grow.

BUT... by no means that means the same as "she can 'awaken'". Personally, I'm guessing Mikoto might get to the stage where she can destroy a entire country with a thunderstorm, but nowhere near the other H4X people who can destroy the Earth with just one attack.

You don't know that

She could completely remove our planet's Magnetic Field, leaving us venerable to cosmic radiation. Or Strengthen the field to the same level of a Magnatar, warping the atoms in our body.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by ~Greed~

Accelerator can only lifewipe and evaporate all the oceans on earth, but not destroy the whole planet.

When did FUSE become a planet buster?

If you think Accelerator can wipe out the life in earth then why not Fuse?

Fuse is still a rank above accelerator in terms of raw power. It just happens that Fuse was made up with the same material that Accelerator knows. If she is the same as gabriel. Just a pure telesma. She can pawn Accelerator.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

She can pawn Accelerator.

She can sell him for cheap?

[IppoTsuko]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

If you think Accelerator can wipe out the life in earth then why not Fuse?

Fuse is still a rank above accelerator in terms of raw power. It just happens that Fuse was made up with the same material that Accelerator knows. If she is the same as gabriel. Just a pure telesma. She can pawn Accelerator.

but accelerator now can became a real angel and even stop and survive an attack from "One who is superior to God." i think he can pawn Fuse instead.

[Zakoo]

Weeeeeeeeeeelllllllllllll if the one who is superior to god is still Touma, a good punch from him never killed ( aside a certain archangel ) hmm, I must say it even brings some chicks. Quite the bonus.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

True, but when Accel became a Level 6 he started to manifest Kakine's Dark Matter ability, which as you mentioned is most likely divine in origin.

Black Wings is not Dark Matter.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by IppoTsuko

but accelerator now can became a real angel and even stop and survive an attack from "One who is superior to God." i think he can pawn Fuse instead.

And said attack from Fianma nearly killed him. Not to mention that before, a half complete Gabriel nearly did so with Sweep.....he still has some way to go before matching Hyouka or Gabriel.

Gabriel is clear clestial body killer. Look at Astral in Hand flinging the stars away from Earth's skies like nothing leaving the Bethlehem Star the only one up there. And that was at 50%.

Fianma can do anything IF said target/s warrants that level of response.

Aiwass is the most powerful thing so far and Aleister is transcendent over reality.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You don't know that

She could completely remove our planet's Magnetic Field, leaving us venerable to cosmic radiation. Or Strengthen the field to the same level of a Magnatar, warping the atoms in our body.

No, the point was to confirm the author didn't say she can awaken, the doubt was about putting words on his comments.

Also, removing the magnetic field or changing its level isn't enough to destroy Earth on one blow, just only torture to death the human live on it.


IMO, Accelerator isn't as strong as Fiamma or the real angels out there.

[Ice Block]

Originally Posted by IppoTsuko

but accelerator now can became a real angel and even stop and survive an attack from "One who is superior to God." i think he can pawn Fuse instead.

No. That wasn't even an attack. Fiamma had already long lost the title of La persona superiore a Dio at that time, and his plan then was to take the Golden Sky and swamp the entire Eurasian continent with it in order to draw out more unrest and hostility from the world which will then power up his Holy Right. In comparison, an attack from the Holy Right purposely aimed by Fiamma would be able to casually defeat Accelerator, Fuse Kazakiri and Gabriel all at the same time.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You don't know that

Actually, we do have a rough idea of that. Mikoto's most powerful attack that even resulted in her getting tired was only able to barely scratch Gunha. Even if she does awaken, the possibility of which I will explain below, the jump will only be as big as what Kakine had. That would be around regular Accelerator's level, going from the text in Volume 15. Now, for the said text:

Spoiler for novel text:

Originally Posted by v15, ch05, pt04

This pair of black wings, Kakine has seen it before, and knows what it is.

The elementary particles that don’t exist in this world, ‘Dark Matter’.

“… So strong. Such powerful Evil. So you can do it if you put your mind to it, Villain. If that’s the case then indeed ‘Dark Matter’ is only suitable for being the ‘Spare Plan’. However, this doesn’t mean it’s all decided!!”

Kakine’s six wings, as if responding to his roar, spread explosively. The wings that span several tens of meters emit a mysterious glow, and at the same time have an inorganic feel like a machine. Almost like a giant weapon gods and angels normally use.

Flap. The air around the six wings lets out a howl.

Accelerator and Dark Matter control the organic and inorganic powers respectively.

Different from this world, this is 'organic' and 'inorganic' in terms of a different world. The one who wields the power of God and the one who has touched the territory of God. Now the odds of victory are even, only that unlike Accelerator, Kakine has not lost himself.

An unprecedented power is expanding within him.

And, he has perfectly mastered this power.

Now the position of the Number One and Number Two of Academy City is about to be reversed. This is neither a bluff nor an exaggeration. He now believes even if he fights against all the armies in the world, and even every ESPer in Academy City, he can emerge victorious and unharmed.

“Hahaha!! Uwahahahaha!!”

Kakine laughed and waved his completely awakened six wings down at Accelerator.

He no longer sees Accelerator as a threat, but only a thing to test his new powers on.

Now, let's focus on this part:

This pair of black wings, Kakine has seen it before, and knows what it is.

The elementary particles that don’t exist in this world, ‘Dark Matter’.

(...)

Accelerator and Dark Matter control the organic and inorganic powers respectively.

Different from this world, this is 'organic' and 'inorganic' in terms of a different world. The one who wields the power of God and the one who has touched the territory of God. Now the odds of victory are even, only that unlike Accelerator, Kakine has not lost himself.

This is where the claims of Accelerator and Kakine's powers being divine come from. Both of their wings are made of dark matter. Accelerator controls organic dark matter, while Kakine has control of inorganic dark matter. This is what makes them angelic. Also notice what their titles resemble: those of the archangels. Remember what angels are supposed to represent? The elements used by magic. And what was Aleister Crowley's plan? To change the laws and foundation of the world so as to prevent the casting of normal magic which the religious sects use. To do this, he's creating an Artificial Heaven and Angels to populate them. Creating new angels means that you create new foundations of sorts to control new elements. He already has three: Kazakiri, Accelerator, and Kakine. I assume Kazakiri is the one in control of AIM. And on this topic, I'm still confused on the correct translation of the Imaginary Number District's institution. Is it Five Elements Institution or Five Layer System? Or are these supposed to be two separate things?

Anyway, this is why one of the requirements for awakening in a way similar to Kakine and Accelerator is a unique power, and of course the potential for awakening in the first place. If Mikoto did have the potential to awaken, then she should not have been limited by Parameter List in the first place (since getting someone to awaken would be more valuable than more Level 5s). In other words, the reason why she's being limited by Parameter List is that pouring additional resources on her development will be ultimately futile since she won't be awakening anyway. Even if she can break through the Parameter List limit in some way and reach her Level cap, then I assume it will only be up to the level of base Kakine.

On Accelerator, I believe the reason why Aiwass called his black wings as from the Aeon of Osiris was because it was manifested thanks to Index's song/prayer that she used on Last Order to fix Kazakiri (which I'm fairly sure Accelerator heard, and so was affected by it too). This should mean that he has now moved on to the Aeon of Horus after his transformation in Volume 22 (which made use of Index's song mixed with the unknown laws from Aiwass and the lambskin, and a smile to Last Order), and that Kakine's wings were already of the Aeon of Horus when he fully awakened, right before being crushed by Accelerator.


For some reason, my sig is acting up again. Damn these blue and white pixels!

[Cosmic Eagle]

Again...no where does it say that Black Wings is organic Dark Matter. Divine as in Angel nature yes, but not Kakine's Dark Matter even if both have Angel potential.

And the reason why Accelerator's Black Wings is Osirian is because it appears when he wants to kill and nothing more. It is pure death, and thus Osirian in aeon rather than the more enlightened and progressive Horusian White Wings.

This does question where Kakine's and Accelerator's Angel nature come from? God? Then if so maybe Aleister is the one getting the short end of the stick in his war against God and Heaven? Maybe the winning side in the end would still be Heaven and the Magic Side.....

[Miraluka]

@Ice Block: Kakine says he saw those Black Wings before, but when?
The only answer is during the invasion of Academy City by Vento, where he fought Kihara and grew black wings. Is obvious Kakine wasn't there but there is the chance they were being observed from afar with security cameras. If Kakine managed to get his hands on those registers (maybe via Underline) and watched Accelerator awakening, that can confirm his point.

Originally Posted by Ice Block

On Accelerator, I believe the reason why Aiwass called his black wings as from the Aeon of Osiris was because it was manifested thanks to Index's song/prayer that she used on Last Order to fix Kazakiri (which I'm fairly sure Accelerator heard, and so was affected by it too). This should mean that he has now moved on to the Aeon of Horus after his transformation in Volume 22 (which made use of Index's song mixed with the unknown laws from Aiwass and the lambskin, and a smile to Last Order), and that Kakine's wings were already of the Aeon of Horus when he fully awakened, right before being crushed by Accelerator.

Its true that Accelerator managed to hear Index's song despite being unable to undertand Kihara's words yet he still was moved by Index's song.

But, the reason why Aiwass called Accelerator from the Aeon of Osiris was because Accelerator fall under pain, death and sacrifice.
Note on this, Aiwass was interested in "Kakine Teitoku" (calling him from the Aeon of Isis) despite his current on a fridge-state Aiwass showed interest only on those two and no other esper. Index doesn't counts since that was during the WW3.

Note: Dark Matter is the name of his power not the material of the wings, its the material he creates by altering the laws.

[Ice Block]

No, you misunderstand. The text states that Kakine knows what these wings are. He has seen them before from his own power; from his own dark matter.

This pair of black wings, Kakine has seen it before, and knows what it is.

The elementary particles that don’t exist in this world, ‘Dark Matter’.

The text here is comparing Kakine's own dark matter to the particles that make up Accelerator's wings. This is supported by Kakine then admitting that it was just fitting that he was only the spare plan upon witnessing them:

“… So strong. Such powerful Evil. So you can do it if you put your mind to it, Villain. If that’s the case then indeed ‘Dark Matter’ is only suitable for being the ‘Spare Plan’. However, this doesn’t mean it’s all decided!!”

EDIT: I forgot. On Index, what I meant to show was that Index used magic formulas from the Aeon of Osiris for her song, and thus Accelerator's wings were from the Aeon of Osiris due to being a product of a Spell Intercept from the Aeon of Osiris.

EDIT2: Maybe the translations are somehow wrong? We could always use some clarification.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Again...no where does it say that Black Wings is organic Dark Matter. Divine as in Angel nature yes, but not Kakine's Dark Matter even if both have Angel potential.

Well, the text does clearly state that Kakine has seen and knows what Accelerator's black wings are. It then goes on to state that they are "The elementary particles that don’t exist in this world, ‘Dark Matter’." Then it states that Accelerator and Kakine control the organic and inorganic respectively. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Accelerator's and Kakine's wings are made from substances that are not of this world, and Kakine's substance/dark matter is inorganic in nature, while Accelerator's substance/dark matter is organic in nature. Basically, what I'm saying is that dark matter is the term used to describe things that are not of this world (things that do not exist), and there are different types of such things. It is both the term used to name Kakine's ability (Dark Matter) and the substances he produces (dark matter; small letters in order to easily differentiate), despite him only being able to create and control the inorganic kind.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

And the reason why Accelerator's Black Wings is Osirian is because it appears when he wants to kill and nothing more. It is pure death, and thus Osirian in aeon rather than the more enlightened and progressive Horusian White Wings.

Well, the ends aren't really any different from what I proposed. Accelerator still transitioned into the Aeon of Horus when he got enlightened after he cured Last Order by singing the song. He even felt a change inside him, where he was able to detect the Telesma getting clumped up and readied for a blast. The thing that gets solved by the theory I proposed was Kakine's wings. From what you said, then Kakine's wings also fall into the Aeon of Horus, since he awakened full control of them after being hit with enlightenment. Basically, I'm laying out the methods (spells used; Judeo-Christian mythology being tied to the Aeon of Osiris, which is characterized by the Father God figure according to Wikipedia, as opposed to the Aeon of Isis focusing on Mother Earth/Nature and the Aeon of Horus focusing on the individual) while you are laying out the psychology. However, since Aiwass apparently called him as from the Aeon of Isis, then maybe it's related to this:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

the magical formula of the Aeon of Isis was founded upon mankind's interpretation of the 'perceived facts' of nature, and our Isian-age progenitors perceived nature as a continous [sic?] process of spontaneous growth.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Aiwass is the most powerful thing so far .

Why? I thought Gabriel display more power, Aiwass just so happens to have an advantage over AIM users.

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

Also, removing the magnetic field or changing its level isn't enough to destroy Earth on one blow, just only torture to death the human live on it.

Well stopping the rotation isn't an instant kill either but nobody's keeping scores.

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Actually, we do have a rough idea of that. Mikoto's most powerful attack that even resulted in her getting tired was only able to barely scratch Gunha. Even if she does awaken, the possibility of which I will explain below, the jump will only be as big as what Kakine had. That would be around regular Accelerator's level, going from the text in Volume 15.

I would argue that neither Mikoto nor Gunha were serious in that fight, stating that they were only using 30% of their power playing around. Then there was that time she summon that giant iron sand storm...

[Karna]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Why? I thought Gabriel display more power, Aiwass just so happens to have an advantage over AIM users.

Accelerator stated that Aiwass was far stronger than Gabriel.

Well stopping the rotation isn't an instant kill either but nobody's keeping scores.

Actually, it is. Stopping the earth's rotation on the spot would pretty much cause the earth to tear apart.

If your talking about Gabriel, then it could also just chuck a star at the planet to make the planet explode.

[Satehi]

Erm, I don't think Kakine saw them from his own Dark matter, otherwise he would be able to create it with his power. All he knows is that they aren't particles that might exist/exist, so the wings are dark matter. No where does it imply he's seen them in his own power before.

[Kenju of the Right]

Originally Posted by Zakoo

Aside the fact whether she can or not awaken, I read the author doesn't want to involve her too much inside Index since she got her own serie.

Thank goodness