2013-01-02, 17:35 | Link #3581 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Secondly, Industrial production today is not the same as the industrial production of your grandpa. That type of industry, driven by unskilled, cheaply payed workers who do repetitive and monotonous tasks is gone. It was destroyed by the Japanese in the 70s and 80s. Industry today is built on fewer skilled workers, not a mass of unskilled drones. Many people want to cling onto that idea, but it is a dead one. If you want to go back to those days, then prepare to go back to cheap, unreliable and flimsy products. The primary factor in an industries success is not how low it's wages are, it's how productive it's workers are. 5 skilled skilled Japanese or Americans will always beat a legion of uneducated Chinese farm boys. If Chinese industry is to beat American industry in the next 20 years, it will not be because of it's cheap labor. It will be because Chinese companies were willing to embrace the innovations that western companies weren't. People blamed Japan's success on low wages too, they were wrong, Japan did not become an industrial behemoth based on cheap disposable factory labor. It became a behemoth because it was better then everyone else, and everyone else only responded by trying to block Japanese products and factories from being built. If the basis of China's success is only it's wages and warped currency, then we're quite fortunate. Chinese industrial growth will inevitably collapse in that case. But if China is genuinely better then us (and it's entirely possible that they are), then building a wall and plugging our ears will achieve nothing. They'll just keep getting better and better, and we'll just stagnate. The reason American(and also European) industry took such a dive in the last 30 years is because they took the easy way out and still tried to compete with the rest of the world based on low wages, rather then focusing on improving worker productivity. And one of the best ways to improve productivity is to expose industries to the full force of the world market. If we look at some of the best manufacturers in the world (think Toyota), they have not closed down their plants at home, because their workers cannot be easily replaced by cheap foreign drones. I agree that Outsourcing is something that should be discouraged, but for me it's a question of labour laws, not tariffs. |
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2013-01-02, 17:59 | Link #3582 | ||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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And even if that wasn't the case... That'd mean higher wages for some other third world countries. It still wouldn't bring the jobs back to the West. Quote:
- they aren't beating them now. - what "uneducated Chinese farm boys"? Why are you talking like that's all China has to offer? What they have is a vast array of variously trained workers who, for equal training, are much cheaper than their Western counterparts. They can make quality (though maybe not top quality), if the money's right. They can also make crap, if that's all the retailers in the west are willing to pay for. Labeling is... negotiable. Quote:
It doesn't matter, though. The point is, you're right: the Chinese are better than we are at getting the goods out for cheap. That's actually an argument for protectionism: if you can't win, don't play. So until and unless someone comes up with a way to turn superior knowledge of American (or in the case of my country, French) history into a decisive industrial advantage, protectionism seems the way to go. Quote:
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2013-01-02, 19:40 | Link #3584 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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[QUOTE=Anh_Minh;4497970]They won't be (they already aren't) the cheapest in the world, but they'll still be cheaper than Western workers.
And even if that wasn't the case... That'd mean higher wages for some other third world countries. It still wouldn't bring the jobs back to the West. [quote] One thing to bear in mind is that economics is not a zero sum game. One region of the world doing well does not mean that another region will be harmed. And as I said, wage costs are only a small part of the story. Quote:
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As for our welfare and social services, we all know it could be made more efficient. We often get too little for what we spend, as money is siphoned off into inefficient services and private interests. Quote:
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Equating "quality" with cost is a mistake you make when thinking in terms of hand made production or old style mass production. In both quality is indeed expensive, as the quality of the product is proportional to the amount of time spent repairing defects after it has been produced. Modern manufacturing focuses on not manufacturing any defective products in the first place, and so "quality" comes, basically, for free(as little time is spent in repairing defects). |
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2013-01-03, 02:00 | Link #3585 | |||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Also, where were made your $100 boots? Because, while I've never paid attention to footwear, I've got plenty of mid-range clothing. All made in the far east. |
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2013-01-03, 02:22 | Link #3586 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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While $60 is alot to compare, I would rather take a $27 safety boot with steel-toe inserts than a $15 one with hard leather head. At least I don't have to spend $3000 for a lawyer to fight my company or my insurer for $10,000 per toe. However, you do have a point. The poor will make do with "whatever works"; which is sometimes a risk to their work safety and health.
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2013-01-03, 07:56 | Link #3587 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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What really caused the collapse in American industrial employment was because they moved to much more efficient manufacturing methods. Because the market was already "saturated" with goods, consumers wouldn't buy more, so ultimately companies had to cut their excess industrial capacity (IE workers ). America employed less people in manufacturing, but still probably makes more then at any previous time in history. All that said, American manufacturing employment is now expanding again, after 30 years of shrinking. Quote:
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Something to note though, just because it's "Made in China", doesn't tell the whole story. Where was the leather cured? where were their machine tools made? It's only the final step that counts in terms of whether it has a "Made in X" mark, whereas in reality nothing is ever purely made in one country. |
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2013-01-21, 12:35 | Link #3592 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Good Inauguration. Decent speech, a good benediction, and fairly soaring and encompassing poem. |
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2013-01-21, 23:24 | Link #3593 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
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http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...auguration.php
GOP really doesn't waste any time does it. Will be interesting if the governor denies it though.
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2013-01-22, 03:23 | Link #3595 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Loli marriage FTW - *gets bludgeoned to death with a paddle*
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2013-01-22, 18:59 | Link #3597 | |
=^^=
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 42° 10' N (Latitude) 87° 33' W (Longitude)
Age: 45
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But, aside from the Presidency... don't forget the other parts of government: Spoiler:
Posted that - because it's true. There does exist a faction within this country, who look to take down the Federal government, in favor of increased state-by-state power. That's the legacy of the Confederacy for you.
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2013-01-23, 14:10 | Link #3598 |
On a mission
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Not that the Teabaggers are worth talking about, but there's nothing wrong with promoting States' rights.
As a side note, I just realized I'm still a registered Democrat when I was sure I changed it on my last DMV form. Fuck that. Changed it right away online. Though I guess I might have stayed Democrat to take advantage of the way primaries work since I didn't know any better Until I realized your vote for president doesn't count in California anyways. Though at the very least the Democratic primary was the most +EV way of having your vote matter here but that's no longer the case anyways thanks to open primaries being activated... one of the more sane things my state has done.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-01-23 at 15:52. |
2013-02-12, 21:03 | Link #3599 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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The State of the Union Address is beginning. I wonder how many other Americans are actually glued to the *other* major event on the other coast, as the drama heats up. |
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