Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[dom33]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Mia should not have died because I wanted to see her and Lacus walk together to the angel bath. INTO the angel bath. And then they'd both get dunked by Cagalli.

Also, where did people get the phrase "jumping the shark?"

What do sharks have to do with it?

this post proves your a clueless rapid fanboy.and meer's death was big waste of time!

and it was a failure to most of this board,guys at ff.net,alot of guys at gamefaqs,mahq,some guys who post their thoughts,and apparently people in japan cause i hear model sales are dropping lower than fukuda's I.Q. and the story made no sense what so ever,repeat of seed,alot of plot devices and more (plot)holes than cheese.
and i'm currently re-watching the earlier episodes and i like them more than the later episodes,my complaint about episodes 4+5 is flashbacks are too long,i liked the scene with shinn yelling at cagalli lot of emotions going around as wingdarkness said i'm dissapointed they didn't explore the shinn&cagalli relationship, I also know why crusader like jibril(sp?) since he's a good stategist certainly better than lacus but then again she has the I.Q. of a spoon in mine and my freinds opinion.character interaction is good.thought i'm annoyed athrun got the heroic launch at the end of episode 5 and he considered a legend for no reason that we're told of like char shot down alot of ships,black tri stars captured reevil and athrun he's a legend for no reason he did nothing big and betrayed zaft so shouldn't they hate him?then again fukuda let's them get awy with anything even getting thousands of people killed only to protect a smaller amount.also what happened to rey VS neo?that'd have been cool.

[4Tran]

dom33, so your argument (what I could make of it anyways) seems to be that Destiny is a failure because it is unpopular with the weboard-posting segment of the English-speaking Gundam fandom. This seems incongruous with the information Last_Hope provided us. Can you explain the discrepancy? In addition, you haven't really explained how the attitude of this select group is more important than the other criteria I brought up. Would you care to comment on this as well?

[brightman]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

brightman, you've sparked my curiosity; what were the original Kanto airtimes for Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, Gundam Wing, and Turn A Gundam?

MSG, Zeta, ZZ were all broadcasted Saturdays at 5:30pm (1/2 hour before Seed). Victory/G/Wing were on Fridays at 5:00pm. First 26 eps of X was the same, but the rest was on Saturdays at 6:00am. Turn A was on Fridays at 4:55pm. Except for Turn A, all Gundam series were aired on TV Asahi (third biggest Tokyo network) in the Kanto area... Turn A was aired on FujiTV (the biggest Tokyo network).

[4Tran]

Ah, catching the after-school crowd. I see.

If I recall correctly, ZZ followed right after Zeta, and in the same timeslot. Also, Victory, G Gundam, Wing, and Gundam X (in the beginning) aired consecutively, also in the same timeslot.

Thank you for the information.

[servitude]

1) since when is destiny unpopular.. It hugely popular in Japan.... and when they make Gundam series, there's actually little thought on how english speaking fans will like it... after all the original SEED got pulled off air quick enough.

2) its bad but not that bad.. most of the destiny bashers rate it as the worst.. it isn't... far from it.. you have tons of worst gundam series out there... SD? ANyone? G? G-Saviour? anyone? hello????

3) for most of the people that hate it, they hate it because its Seed redux with abslutely no change in anything at all... Same old cast.. Believe me when I say Shinn leading the show would have made it much better.

4) they bough back Kira and Asuran in the middle of the show when it appereared as if Shinn was starting to move to the center which disrupted he show. the director then felt loss for 10 ep flipping between kira or shinn which wrecked the show even further.

5) the last 10 ep was a roller coaster without thrills.. It was 10 ep 5 fillers and a last ep that felt much more rushed than Seed which was bad enough as it is.

6) the show had a good premise, as with many GUndam series only to loose itself in mindless jargon of "world peace" talk. when that happenede it became a "where's the action" gundam series which grew worst with the fact that animators used tons of recycled scences and fillers with Kira talking again and again about things we've already known more than 50 episodes back.. which by the way, put it back to Seed time.

7) lastly, from the 3/4 show onwards it became an exact replica of older Gundam series.. and I mean exact replica. Most gundam series copies.. yes... but they have their own ingenuity storyline as well. Take Turn A, 0083, the excellent 08th and Wing. Similar yes but different as well. Destiny was similar definitely.. different.... hmm not so sure about that.

8) Tried a tomino with the mindless death of many characters (mostly bad guys) good guys don't seem to die... but done in horrendous fashion as it ended up pitting a one sided uber team against ahalf baked, half skilled crap team... what a way to end the series... in all the gundam series? none has potrayed the final battle as so one sided as they did in Destiny. Wing had a classic final battle... So did CCA, so did 08, and so on....

[servitude]

Incidently the only good thing to come out of the show is the uber concept for Infinite Justice.. I really liked it.. TOo bad we've seen the leg chopping hand thing once only... and that's in the last ep.. sad indeed.. But sadly it appeared only for a few ep... unlike the redundant and reused Strike Freedom aka Freedom mk2.

[Demongod86]

@ 4tran: voluntary response bias renders the web boards' responses as absolutely inconclusive to the overall success of GSD.

BASIC STATISTICS AT WORK HERE, PEOPLE!

IJ is Justice mk. II as well. The same EXACT whirling dervish fighting style, except now with more tools to make it more effective. Same with Freedom's, except with Freedom, you get to see its effects far more because it's an AoE spamming suit...

Though seriously...Lacus should realize that she can do away with the precision HiMAT beams and just latch on a wing-zero style buster rifle. Want to end a war quickly? Do it Heeroically. With merciless slaughter.

[polar720]

The way I see it. GSD was a genius` work at money milking using a choppy plot and underdeveloped characters. In other words, it got the job done, but I`m not impressed.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by polar720

The way I see it. GSD was a genius` work at money milking using a choppy plot and underdeveloped characters. In other words, it got the job done, but I`m not impressed.

I am not sure it gets the job done at all...

After all, regardless of the numerous comments that Fukuda surrenders to fan pressure, nearly none of the fan demands are actually met.

It has been shown through UC universe that it was unnecessary for an MS to have excessive screen time, to have lots (or even any) kills, or even be piloted by a main character, in order to be a popular MS model kit. ZAKU I was one such example. The UC diehards can find much better examples than I could.

And all the relationship pairings were thrown for a loop; if Fukuda actually wants to please fans, Deaka and Milli would be married by now.

Even Fukuda admits that GSD was the worst work he has ever done. (His words were along the lines of "I have never been satisfied with any anime I created, believing I could do more. GSD was the worst in that regard." The translation was lost in the Great Crack.)

[polar720]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I am not sure it gets the job done at all...

I meant that it got the job done in terms of milking people of their money.

[Last_Hope]

@Brightman (aka The CE-Hater )

It probably is a typo.

But for Blood+ to average just over 4% is a surprise to me, I definitely thought it was higher than that. It´s a very well made show even though the aspects of the show might appeal a more narrow fanbase than shows such as FMA and Gundam.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by polar720

I meant that it got the job done in terms of milking people of their money.

I don't think GSD milked any better than any old trash with "Gundam" in the title and the advantage of a prime-time slot and die-hard fans who would buy anything with a Gundam name. (the fans will hate it, but buy it anyway out of sense of completion.)

Even Fukuda claim anyone could have made money out of GSD. He openly states that his (positive) contribution was minimal. (the source was, once again, lost in the Great Crack.)

[polar720]

yes, but GSD and GS were practically made for product sales. In fact most AUs were made for product sales, but GS and GSD just seemed to be more into selling models and the such. Frankly, I bet Bandai could care less about what kind of story GSD had as long as they made money. Thus, the show was a success ranking into the top three Gundam series in terms of making money.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by polar720

yes, but GSD and GS were practically made for product sales. In fact most AUs were made for product sales, but GS and GSD just seemed to be more into selling models and the such. Frankly, I bet Bandai could care less about what kind of story GSD had as long as they made money. Thus, the show was a success ranking into the top three Gundam series in terms of making money.

But that's my point. GSD didn't do its job well because there wasn't a job there period.

Even the Japanese are calling GSD episodes half-hour gundam model commercials. In a way, it would be like saying Meer get the job done in being Lacus; sure, she did what Lacus appeared to do, but she did nothing of what the real Lacus is capable of.

GSD appeared to have revived Gundam Model sales, But if it really did its job, the sales of the models would be far superior than it is now. The fan base should have expanded, and everyone and their dog would want to tell their friends about the latest craze that is the CE universe.

GS had set up a reasonable base for a new generation of CE fans; GSD destroyed it.

If and only if GSD brought Gundam sales UP, rather than merely maintain past numbers, would I consider it a success. As I see it, a new generation of anime fans will talk about GSD for years to come, but not in a way Sunrise anticipated; they will talk about it as the greatest failure in the franchise's history.

[polar720]

I`m saying, GSD was made to make money more than be a good story. Other Gundams were made for story just as much as money. GSD being made for MONEY and NOT so much STORY, did it`s job by MAKING LOTS OF MONEY, even though the story was crap.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by polar720

I`m saying, GSD was made to make money more than be a good story. Other Gundams were made for story just as much as money. GSD being made for MONEY and NOT so much STORY, did it`s job by MAKING LOTS OF MONEY, even though the story was crap.

Well, my point is it would make MORE money than it did if it has a good story.

But since I can't prove what didn't happen... Anyway, Bandai spent as much if not more money into GSD as any other Gundam series they've ever funded. What makes you think they won't expect good model sales AND decent story? You can't deny that the negative press is likely lowering model sales from where it could have been...

As I say, I can't prove it. This isn't the first Gundam Series funded by Bandai, and this isn't the first Gundam series that is heavily commercialised. However, this IS the first Gundam series I know of that failed so badly.

So what changed? If Bandai involvement was the culprit, won't every single past Gundam series fail for exactly the same reason?

It is Bandai's job to pressure a Sunrise director to make a series that they are happy with. But it's also a Sunrise director's job to tell Bandai to shove it and do his own thing. It's a Sunrise series, not a Bandai series. Every Gundam director in the past (other than the recent SD Gundam) produced a workable, tolerable story under the SAME conditions Fukuda went through. Getting pressured from sponsors and such are nothing new. It's how you respond that matters. (As an example, Hideki Anno receives a script weekly from Toho when he was making "Nadia, Secret of Blue Water", and was ordered to make the week's episode from the script. Without fail, each week he throws the script into the trash and animate whatever he wanted instead. This was before Gainax became famous. As a side note, Hideki Anno was told that Bandai would fund Neon Genesis Evangelion if he made the EVA legs thicker, for easier toy making. Anno told them to get lost too, and in the end THEY came back to Anno with a much better toy deal (and no demands!) after the NGE boom. )

Sponsors make unreasonable demands all the time; but only a weak, loser director who shouldn't be given the job would give in to them. I seriously, and I do mean SERIOUSLY, doubt that the script changes were due to Bandai. Bandai is no more forceful to Fukuda than any other director they would pressure. That's what they do.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by polar720

I`m saying, GSD was made to make money more than be a good story. Other Gundams were made for story just as much as money. GSD being made for MONEY and NOT so much STORY, did it`s job by MAKING LOTS OF MONEY, even though the story was crap.

well, for a series that was supposed to make A LOT of money, it only made a moderate amount... i think anyway
A series that was supposed to sell out should have probably made a lot more money

In fact, i'm not certain, but i think i heard someone mention on these forums that the ratings for GSD were low compared to past Gundam series, and that product sales were dropping... but that's only what i remember hearing, weather or not its true i'm not sure

Originally Posted by servitude

2) its bad but not that bad.. most of the destiny bashers rate it as the worst.. it isn't... far from it.. you have tons of worst gundam series out there... SD? ANyone? G? G-Saviour? anyone? hello????

Y'know, i think those three gundams might be the ONLY gundams i consider worst then GSD... thogh i'm uncertain about G Gundam, i may actually rank it higher
I mean, the only real reason i rank G Gundam so poorly was because G Gundam was truly a super robot anime, and i just don't think that mixes well into everything i previously knew about Gundam... However... that's only my personal view... looking at it in another way, i realize that as much as i dislked it, G gundam DID come out exactly as it was supposed to... it was a super robot anime and it KNEW it was a super robot anime...
And though i still rank the new SD Gundam lower then GSD, i still give it more credit then GSD for similar reasons... it was supposed to be a kiddy anime, and it was a kiddy anime... so unless the little kiddies didn't like it, it deserves more credit then GSD (and i'm uncertain how the kiddies felt about it)

The reason i give little to no credit to GSD is because it was meant to make LOTS of money, and it didn't do any better in sales then any other series... and even though it was suppose to sell out, it was NEVER supposed to have a poor storyline or be horrible in any form or way... going into the project Fukuda intended on making a good series that lived up to the names of the past series... and he failed... furthar more, for a series that was supposed to make lots of, the sales of the series were not very high

The only way i think GSD could be called a success was if it brought Gundam sales to an all time high, and came out exactly as it was supposed to be... thus doing EXACTLY as it was meant to do
And Fukuda said it himself, that GSD didn't come out as he would have hoped it to be

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

GS had set up a reasonable base for a new generation of CE fans; GSD destroyed it.

So very true...
I think that GS was much more successful... It was supposed to be sorta of a fresh start for the gundam fanchise... it was supposed to be like the UC gundam of the post-Tomino generation... in terms of attracking the attention of a fresh audience and adding to the fan base and all that, it did well i think...
Problem is that GSD, failed to live up to what GS started...

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I don't think GSD milked any better than any old trash with "Gundam" in the title and the advantage of a prime-time slot and die-hard fans who would buy anything with a Gundam name. (the fans will hate it, but buy it anyway out of sense of completion.)

Except its been shown that just having "Gundam" in the title doesn't guarantee instant success. Otherwise Tomino would still be the Gundam director.

Saturday @ 6PM isn't exactly a prime-time slot either, just a better timeslot that when Gundams have been in the past.

Even Fukuda claim anyone could have made money out of GSD. He openly states that his (positive) contribution was minimal. (the source was, once again, lost in the Great Crack.)

Judging from the quote, he was just intentionally being modest... Though its true that Bandai's marketing campaign had a lot to do with the popularity of Seed (then again, every Gundam series is heavily marketed... Even Turn A was, initially. Its just that some marketing strategies don't work very well).

And also he was only talking about Seed, I believe, not Seed Destiny. Destiny's marketing campaign never took off as much as Seed's did, I think.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

The reason i give little to no credit to GSD is because it was meant to make LOTS of money, and it didn't do any better in sales then any other series...

Actually, GSD had the best DVD sales out of all the Gundam series, and its music CDs also sold the most. So it did do better in those aspects.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by brightman

Except its been shown that just having "Gundam" in the title doesn't guarantee instant success. Otherwise Tomino would still be the Gundam director.

Actaully i think Tomino stoped wanting to make Gundam series because he was no longer interesting in making them...
I believe he waned to put Gundam behind him a work on something else, something new

Originally Posted by brightman

Actually, GSD had the best DVD sales out of all the Gundam series, and its music CDs also sold the most. So it did do better in those aspects.

Heh, really...
Music sales i can see... afterall, IMO, GS and GSD had some of the best music to date in the gundam franchise
DVD's... well, doing better then GS is a bit of surprise... not so sure about the rest of the gundam universes... does that "best DVD sales" also inculde things like VHS... afterall, most Gundam series were popular back before DVD was the popular medium... and i think it does make sence that an old series that was orginally sold as VHS would have lower DVD sales than a series that is newer and orginally released on DVD... afterall, the only ones that would buy the DVD's of the older series are hardcore fans (just having the VHS isn't good enough for them), and those new to the fanchise

though all in all, i think Vallen's point remains true... despite how well or bad the sales of the series did... sales probably could have been MUCH better... y'know, had the series did far better with the storyline and so forth

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Actaully i think Tomino stoped wanting to make Gundam series because he was no longer interesting in making them...
I believe he waned to put Gundam behind him a work on something else, something new

Actually, it probably has more to do with the lack of success of Turn A. The twentieth anniversary Gundam show probably opened to the greatest fanfare of any of the others, but it had mediocre ratings and lacklustre model sales. Part of the problem is that many people still think that Tomino approved wierd mecha designs in order to ruin the model sales. Of course if Tomino really didn't want to work on Gundam anymore, we wouldn't have the Zeta movies.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

afterall, the only ones that would buy the DVD's of the older series are hardcore fans (just having the VHS isn't good enough for them), and those new to the fanchise

This is not really true. Basically all fans will buy the DVDs simply because they are very unlikely to keep their VHS players. In North America, people are systematically replacing their VHS collections with DVDs, and this is only more applicable to the space-concious Japanese. Of course, given the price of R2 DVDs, only the hardcore fans are likely to buy the videos in the first place, but that's a different issue.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

though all in all, i think Vallen's point remains true... despite how well or bad the sales of the series did... sales probably could have been MUCH better... y'know, had the series did far better with the storyline and so forth

The problem with this reasoning is that we can also say this with just about any series. It's really just an invitation for further speculation, without actually addressing the question at hand.